Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 I'm not playin that game. You made the statement ... I asked you if it was just your personal idea or if you had some reference for this thought. You then threw out a punch of texts that did not show what you have said here about intent. So, again I need to ask if you have any references for this belief or it is just your own? If we take the verses here, I think it is very clear that we do not have to live in sin. Living in sin means a life devoted to sinning. No one is forced to do this but we all have a choice. That is clear from both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy. The only problem is whether we are going to accept what they say. It can't be stated any more clearly than in 1 John 3: 1-10 and 1 John 5: 18, among others-- Quote: 1 How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure. 4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. 7 Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10 This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother. 5: 18-- 18 We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. Notice that the above is not contradicting 1 John 1: 8-10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 Romans 6 talks about being free from sin and being servants of righteousness. We've been over this, but you continue to inject what is not there. You get confused because you do not know the gospel! Romans 6:6...our old self [old life from Adam] was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we [our humanity] should no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. When did you die "in Christ"? When Christ was crucified. Hence you died to the law in the body of Christ (see Romans 7:4) 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Paul is speaking of the believer's mindset and not one's performance. We should aim to "walk in the Spirit" and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh....We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The restoration of the gospel has to do with much more than simply understanding that Christ died for humanity. The gospel is about who God is, and that gospel has been trampled into the dust. The restoration of the gospel includes the fact that no human can change God's law and that Christ alone is our High Priest. It includes the good news that Christ made the world and us and that this great Creator also died for us to save us from sin, and that He will one day recreate the earth as a place where He will live among us. Utterly false! This is pure heresy. The gospel is the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ. It is the truth as it is "in Christ". What you teach is "another gospel"....It is a gospel of works and self-righteousness. Do you reject the teaching that the gospel is about who God is and what He is like? Isn't the gospel revealed to win us back to trust in Him? Isn't the gospel given to show us the character of God? John 1: 18 as well as John 17: 4, etc., says that Jesus' purpose in coming was to explain who God is and to glorify Him. The gospel has been hidden and suppressed, so that it no longer reveals the truth about God or glorifies Him. Its restoration does this: it shows us the truth about God and it also glorifies Him. Do you believe this? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 1) Do you believe the commandments of God can be changed? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Romans 6 talks about being free from sin and being servants of righteousness. We've been over this, but you continue to inject what is not there. You get confused because you do not know the gospel! Romans 6:6...our old self [old life from Adam] was crucified with Him, that our body of sin might be done away with, that we [our humanity] should no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. When did you die "in Christ"? When Christ was crucified. Hence you died to the law in the body of Christ (see Romans 7:4) 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Paul is speaking of the believer's mindset and not one's performance. We should aim to "walk in the Spirit" and not fulfill the lusts of the flesh....We are to reckon ourselves dead to sin. Rob How does this relate to our personal lives? For instance, will this truth not affect how I live? What if I am continuing to live in sin? That is, what if, after I claim Christ as my Lord and Savior, I continue to work as a prostitute or keep stealing? Look carefully at Romans 6: 19. It says that just as before I yielded my members to sin, even now I am to yield my members to be slaves of righteousness. Is that talking about a mindset or actions? Is it referring to something that occurred to all humanity before I was born or to me personally as a believer? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 Do you reject the teaching that the gospel is about who God is and what He is like? Isn't the gospel revealed to win us back to trust in Him? Isn't the gospel given to show us the character of God? John 1: 18 as well as John 17: 4, etc., says that Jesus' purpose in coming was to explain who God is and to glorify Him. Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 1) Do you believe the commandments of God can be changed? Yes! Quote: 2) Do you believe the Sabbath is still a memorial of creation? No! Thank you. I am trying to understand you, and I thought that is how you believe. By the way, as a point of clarification-- I notice that it didn't say "the Ten Commandments" can be changed. Is that what you meant? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 How does this relate to our personal lives? For instance, will this truth not affect how I live? What if I am continuing to live in sin? That is, what if, after I claim Christ as my Lord and Savior, I continue to work as a prostitute or keep stealing? 1] I don't like how you present yourself. You act like you are some teacher and we are your students. 2] You ignore much of what we say and then instead of replying all you do is bombard us with more questions. Anyway, Rabbi, here's your answer: Rahab already stood justified by faith while she was a prostitute. You don't practice homosexual lifestyle any longer, but there's still self-seeking and self-love (iniquity) in your life. So in that respect you are not living Christ's life. If the law were your judge you wouldn't make it, even now. So while you grow, you are nonetheless coming up short. Your growth proves your faith, not your righteousness. Rob Rob Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 By the way, as a point of clarification-- I notice that it didn't say "the Ten Commandments" can be changed. Is that what you meant? The 4th commandment was changed! Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 By the way, as a point of clarification-- I notice that it didn't say "the Ten Commandments" can be changed. Is that what you meant? The 4th commandment was changed! 1st stone tablets: 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. 2nd stone tablets (in the ark of the covenant): 2 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The 4th commandment was changed! [/quote'] 1st stone tablets: 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. 2nd stone tablets (in the ark of the covenant): 2 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day The Bible is very clear in Deut. 4: 12, 13, that the law which was written on the stone tablets were the same words that God spoke to the people in Exodus 20. (Closely compare Exodus 2) 1-21; Deut. 4: 12, 13; Ex. 24: 12; 31:18; 34:28). Both tablets had the same words. It was not changed. (For proof of this, see Ex. 34:1, which says plainly that the words God wrote on the second set of tablets were the same as those which were written by God on the first set. God did not change the law.) The fact is that the oldest manuscripts of Deut. 5: 15, over 1000 years older than all the previously known Hebrew manuscripts, include the same words as Ex. 20 about the Sabbath as a memorial of creation. These prove that the original manuscript of Deut. 5: 15 reads, "Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day to hallow it. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them and rested the seventh day; so the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it." (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, The Oldest Known Bible Translated For the First Time Into English, HarperSanFrancisco, 1999.) As all Bible commentators tell us, Moses was reviewing the Ten Commandments for the people just before going into the Promised Land, and since they were a new generation and were soon to take up living in Palestine, Moses rehearsed the law for them and gave this additional reason for keeping the Sabbath. There is no reason to think that the additional reason given for keeping the Sabbath made the original reason obsolete. It was necessary to give this additional reason in order to emphasize the importance of giving their servants a Sabbath rest. He was reminding them of this because their parents had not been able to keep the Sabbath while in Egypt. (See Jamieson, Faussett and Brown's Commentary.) I don't know of any Bible scholars even among Sunday keepers who believe that the reason for keeping the Sabbath was changed due to the idolatry of the Jews at Sinai. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Here is the reason from the Bible why it cannot be true that the basis of Sabbath keeping changed: No matter what additional reason Moses mentioned in Deut. 5 for keeping the Sabbath, the very fact that the seventh-day was holy ALWAYS AND ONLY LEADS TO ONE EVENT and that event is the completion of the God's creation. There is no way around that association and connection. It did not become holy or blessed because Israel was liberated from Egypt. It was blessed and holy thousands of years before. And the reason is was holy is God is our creator. That is reason enough. But there is the added reason that God is also our redeemer, having made us and then freed us from sin. The additional reason would never make the original reason invalid. They are complementary, not contradictory. The clincher for me is the fact that the Sabbath was declared to be a memorial of creation in Ex. 20, thousands of years AFTER the Fall. So if that is true, it proves without question that it's an invalid argument which would ask us to believe the Sabbath was changed because the world is no longer perfect. Put this together with the Dead Sea Scroll evidence as well as the fact that the Spirit of prophecy says plainly that the Sabbath will forever be a memorial of the creation, and there is simply no good reason to accept the idea that the meaning of the Sabbath has changed. What you don't seem to understand for some reason is that the Sabbath is connected to righteousness by faith and is at the same time a memorial of creation, and these are not in the slightest contradictory. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 You know, John, it's extremely rude to move a forum and not leave a link to follow. It truly makes me feel like you all are trying to hide the truth. I am simply compelled to believe you are trying to hide truth. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 You know, John, it's extremely rude to move a forum and not leave a link to follow. It truly makes me feel like you all are trying to hide the truth. I am simply compelled to believe you are trying to hide truth. I certainly didn't try to hide anything. I'm not the only moderator of course and there are others who move things around. What forum are you speaking of? I am trying to find several threads myself, Can the Commandments Be Changed? And the one called, What Happens To Humans When They Die? Why don't you ask what happened rather than just assume that I moved it? I have no reason to hide the forum. I want the discussion. I'm the one that started it, or at least one of them. I'm glad you are here to discuss these things. We have had many threads on the subject. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
B Humble Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble You know, John, it's extremely rude to move a forum and not leave a link to follow. It truly makes me feel like you all are trying to hide the truth. I am simply compelled to believe you are trying to hide truth. I certainly didn't try to hide anything. I'm not the only moderator of course and there are others who move things around. What forum are you speaking of? I am trying to find several threads myself, Can the Commandments Be Changed? And the one called, What Happens To Humans When They Die? Why don't you ask what happened rather than just assume that I moved it? I have no reason to hide the forum. I want the discussion. I'm the one that started it, or at least one of them. I'm glad you are here to discuss these things. We have had many threads on the subject. I guess it was the fact that you notified you move it, but didn't leave a link? You think? Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 I guess it was the fact that you notified you move it, but didn't leave a link? You think? It could be it but I will hunt it down. If it can be found and restored, it will be. In the meantime, the subjects are open for discussion on different but related threads. I'm sorry that happened. The problem was that there were two topics mixed together in the one thread, and I was trying to separate them. It was the first time I had tried to do that, and I made a mistake. I apologize and will do what I can, if possible, to get those posts back. I liked both those topics very much. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 ....As all Bible commentators tell us, Moses was reviewing the Ten Commandments for the people just before going into the Promised Land, and since they were a new generation and were soon to take up living in Palestine, Moses rehearsed the law for them and gave this additional reason for keeping the Sabbath. There is no reason to think that the additional reason given for keeping the Sabbath made the original reason obsolete. Assumptions...blah, blah, blah.... Sorry, all my versions read the same. There was a change! But instead you twist...you spin! You're a real card. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 ....As all Bible commentators tell us, Moses was reviewing the Ten Commandments for the people just before going into the Promised Land, and since they were a new generation and were soon to take up living in Palestine, Moses rehearsed the law for them and gave this additional reason for keeping the Sabbath. There is no reason to think that the additional reason given for keeping the Sabbath made the original reason obsolete. Assumptions...blah, blah, blah.... Sorry, all my versions read the same. There was a change! But instead you twist...you spin! You're a real card. Rob The Bible is very clear in Deut. 4: 12, 13, that the law which was written on the stone tablets were the same words that God spoke to the people in Exodus 20. (Closely compare Exodus 20: 1-21; Deut. 4: 12, 13; Ex. 24: 12; 31:18; 34:28). Both tablets had the same words. It was not changed. (For proof of this, see Ex. 34:1, which says plainly that the words God wrote on the second set of tablets were the same as those which were written by God on the first set. God did not change the law.) The fact is that the oldest manuscripts of Deut. 5: 15, over 1000 years older than all the previously known Hebrew manuscripts, include the same words as Ex. 20 about the Sabbath as a memorial of creation. These prove that the original manuscript of Deut. 5: 15 reads, "Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day to hallow it. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them and rested the seventh day; so the Lord blessed the sabbath day and hallowed it." (The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, The Oldest Known Bible Translated For the First Time Into English, HarperSanFrancisco, 1999.) No matter what additional reason Moses mentioned in Deut. 5 for keeping the Sabbath, the very fact that the seventh-day was holy leads ALWAYS AND ONLY TO A SINGLE EVENT and that event is the completion of the God's creation. There is no way around that association and connection. It did not become holy or blessed because Israel was liberated from Egypt. It was blessed and holy thousands of years before. And the reason it was holy is that God is our creator. That is reason enough. But there is the added reason for keeping the Sabbath, which is that God is also our redeemer, having made us and then freed us from sin. The additional reason would never make the original reason invalid. They are complementary, not contradictory. The clincher for me is the fact that the Sabbath was declared to be a memorial of creation in Ex. 20, thousands of years AFTER the Fall. So if that is true, it proves without question that it's an invalid argument which would ask us to believe the Sabbath was changed because the world is no longer perfect. I don't know of any Bible scholars even among Sunday keepers who believe that the reason for keeping the Sabbath was changed due to the idolatry of the Jews at Sinai. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 I guess it was the fact that you notified you move it, but didn't leave a link? You think? I have been asking around on that same question myself - in the meantime the John 11 thread I started is the very same subject and has not been moved -- is still active -- copy paste points onto it or add your comments to continue until we find that thread. (I like having threads less than 30 pages anyway since after 20 or so pages people are no longer reading anything but the first and the last 3 or 4). in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 You know, John, it's extremely rude to move a forum and not leave a link to follow. It truly makes me feel like you all are trying to hide the truth. I am simply compelled to believe you are trying to hide truth. Whoa -- that John 11 thread is still active and is the same topic. The link John posted in his "I have moved the thread" post did not work for me -- so I am not sure where it went -- but you have had access to the John 11 thread the whole time... (And could even copy past some of the hijack-thread comments here that are really on the issue of the soul -- over there) A little less "conspiracy theory" would work well just now. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 10, 2008 Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The 4th commandment was changed! [/quote'] 1st stone tablets: 8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. 2nd stone tablets (in the ark of the covenant): 2 “‘Observe the sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work; 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day wrong. The Deut 5 statement is made in summary by Moses 40 years after the Sinai event. 1. There is no record that the Deut 5 statement was ever chisled into any stone tablets. 2. There is no record that the Exodus tablets were destroyed or replaced 40 years later. 3. Moses simply ADDS to the wording of Ex 20 by observing that though mankind has the Creation account reason to honor Christ our Creator's holy day - given to mankind as a memorial of HIS work in creating all life on earth in Six actual days -- the Hebrews had ONE MORE reason to honor Christ and that was because he delivered them from Egypt 4. Release from Egypt did NOT happen on a seven day cycle - nor does Deut 5 say that it did. The 7 day element shows that it continues to derive from the 7 days of Gen 1-2:3. since that is the only reason ever given for 7 days in that cycle even in Deut 5 no other reason is given. Thus as Christ points out in Mark 2:27 "the Sabbath was MADE for mankind" not "the Sabbath was made for Hebrew". And thus as we see in Isaiah 66 the "all mankind" scope for Sabbath was clearly stated in the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship". John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 1st set of tablets: Ex 32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back. 16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the writing of God, engraved on the tablets.....19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 2nd set of tablets: Ex 34:1 Now the Lord said to Moses, “Cut out for yourself two stone tablets like the former ones, and I will write on the tablets the words that were on the former tablets which you shattered....4 So he cut out two stone tablets like the former ones, and Moses rose up early in the morning and went up to Mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and he took two stone tablets in his hand. Moses reads the 2nd set: Deut 5:1 Moses summoned all Israel and said: Hear, O Israel, the decrees and laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our fathers that the LORD made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The LORD spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the LORD and you to declare to you the word of the LORD, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) [size:20pt]And he [God] said: 6 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 7 “You shall have no other gods before me....12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?]....15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?]....15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. Does the above pass the Sabbath test? Remember that the Sabbath, as a sign, points to a perfect and complete work accomplished by God. If that work is complete then God has entered into "His rest". What day were the Jews delivered from bondage? I bet it was Friday. What day did God rest from His perfect and complete work? The 7th-day. Was His work complete? Yes! Why? The Jews were freed through God's mighty works! Hence Moses, through God, changed why the Jews were to acknowledge the Sabbath: As a sign of God's redemption from bondage. Note, no longer did it point to creation because it no longer pointed to a perfect work. I believe God was trying to make a point.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Author Posted October 10, 2008 The Bible is very clear in Deut. 4: 12, 13, that the law which was written on the stone tablets were the same words that God spoke to the people...." Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Posted October 10, 2008 And he [God] said: 6 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 7 “You shall have no other gods before me....12 “Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work [why?]....15 You shall remember that you were a servant in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out thence with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day. It's a plain fact that Exodus 20 gives the Ten Commandments as God spoke them. It is also a fact that Deut. 5 gives them as they were rehearsed by Moses 40 years later just before Israel was entering the Promised Land. The rehearsal of the law-- the review of it-- is not the same as the original proclamation of the law. For that you have to turn to Ex. 20. The rehearsal also added some words to the 10th commandment which were not actually spoken by or written by God. You have to decide if Ex. 20 gives the law as God spoke it before all the people, or whether you want to accept the rehearsed version. It doesn't matter in terms of showing that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation because the seventh day was blessed and sacred ONLY FOR ONE REASON, AND THAT REASON HAD TO DO WITH CREATION, NOT ISRAEL. The other very important fact is that there is manuscript proof that the original read the same as Exodus 20, but with the additional reason for keeping the Sabbath. This is based on several Dead Sea Scrolls dating from about the time of Christ. The Spirit of prophecy supports the text in Exodus 20 as being the law as God spoke it before the people, and this is also the conclusion that virtually all Bible scholars have come to. But in a sense, as far as your argument is concerned, it is a moot point because it doesn't change the fact that the seventh-day Sabbath was blessed and holy on the basis of the creation, not because of Israel. Ask yourself, Why the weekly cycle? Was it due to Israel's release from Egypt? No, but it has everything to do with the creation, the same as the Sabbath. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
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