Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Robert]

At last...no reply....

Good,

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The Judaizers would have argued with you:

Genesis 17:7 7 “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant' date=' to be God to you and to your descendants after you. ....9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

I'll play the devil's advocate:

"John, you are a spiritual Jew, you must be circumcised because God told Abraham that this was "an everlasting covenant"! IF you refuse, well, you'll be cut off...no heaven for you!"

Wow, I'd make a good Judaizer.

Okay John, your answer?

Rob [/quote']

John, you missed this one?

You can't answer the question! Just admit it!....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Robert

This one is hard for you, huh?

You say circumcision isn't a part of the NC (and to a point I understand your meaning) but...you still have a conundrum!

It is 4:30 in the morning. I have a father who is dying, and I have to get some sleep. I'll will deal with this post later.

[Robert]

It is 4:30 in the morning. I have a father who is dying, and I have to get some sleep.

Understand,

God bless.

Rob

[John317]

I assure you I will respond fully to your post on this. I respond to hundreds of posts, but I don't always remember all of them. Thanks for reminding me of this one.

[Robert]

This really belongs here:

Originally Posted By: John317

That is not the reason the Judaizers were wrong. They were wrong because circumcision had nothing to do with the New Covenant. The Abrahamic and Mosaic covenant had the sign of circumcision, but circumcision was no part of God's new agreement.

So you say, but here you are wrong, wrong, wrong! Paul gives the reason:

"They [the Judaizers] desire to have you circumcised, that they may boast in your flesh"!

Remember Abraham stood justified by faith alone. It was years later that God demanded circumcision. The question is why did He demand this sign? Well, I've already discussed this. It was a symbol to place no confidence in human performance...human works. Proof? Okay:

Beware of the dogs [wolves in sheep's clothing], beware of the evil workers, beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh....

What does Paul mean?

"If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more...."

As a Pharisee Paul had quite a record. He lists these things in verses 5 through 6. Here are the two main ones:

1] Circumcised the eighth day,

2] as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

That's having confidence in one's performance. As given by God to Abraham, circumcision was a sign (mark/seal/symbol) exactly opposite this self-righteous attitude. As given by God circumcision was an outward sign to place no confidence in human performance...human works.

The Sabbath, as it relates to the gospel, means the same. Since God's work of redemption was realized in the birth, life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, nothing that you do can improve on God's work "in Christ". This will be the issue in the future as the true gospel collides with all false gospels.

What day did God rest from His perfect & finished work of redemption? The 7th-day! When you rest, as God rested that Sabbath some 2000 years ago, you are outwardly agreeing that there's nothing I can do to add to God's perfect work. You rest from your works at attempting to gain heaven.

Is this what Historic and Traditional Adventist teach? NO! Hence, they are modern day Judaizers. If Paul were alive today he would say:

Gal 6:12 Those [Adventists] want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to [keep the Sabbath].....13 Not even those who [keep the Sabbath] obey the law, yet they want you to [keep the Sabbath] that they may boast about your flesh. 14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world [the principle of "I"] has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

All pride...all boasting...all things to be seen of men are nothing more than a fare show of the flesh. True law keeping comes from agape. Agape is a love that is not self-seeking.

So true circumcision stood for having no confidence in human works. In the same way there's false Sabbath keeping and true Sabbath keeping. I'm afraid that for years SDA having been perverting the Sabbath, just like the Jews did....

[BobRyan]

So in both cases obedience was required. Why then were the Judaizers wrong in stating the following?

Acts 15:1 Some men [believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees - see verse 5] came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved [i.e., you'll be cut off].”

Let's keep to the topic.

Rob

[Robert]

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

This didn't do away with the sign of circumcision as given to Abraham.

The Judaizers perverted it to symbolize a sign of works where Abraham was circumcised as a sign NOT to have confidence in one's performance, but rather in the promises of God.

The same is true of the Sabbath. Many Adventists have perverted the Sabbath by making it a requirement to be saved, when in reality, it symbolizes that we already stand 100% righteous in the doing of dying of Christ - namely, God's rest.

[BobRyan]

The fact of OT saints in Heb 11 (Giants of faith fully accepted by God) being born-again pre-cross (as we see in John 3:16) and under the New Covenant with the Law of God written in the heart -- did not stop them from being circumcised because circumcision is not a predicting that one day people will be born again -- rather it is a symbol of the new birth that was already reality since the days of Adam.

Hence -- Romans 2 telling us what it symbolizes - so we need not guess nor be forced to rely on unrelated patching of texts.

Quote:

Rom 2

25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?

27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.

29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

And notice how God is saying the Holy Spirit and the deeds of the saints are interwoven such that those who DO the requirements are seen to be those who are born-again who have that work of circumcision of the heart done in them -- who are under the new covenant turned into one who has the LAW of God written on the heart.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

You are not listening....

Tell me, what if Abraham would have said "no" to God's requirement of circumcision?

[BobRyan]

I am not Calvinist - so I accept the Matt 18 teaching that a person can lose salvation --

In Matt 16 Christ said "Who do men say that I am" and Peter gives the head-of-the-class answer. Then Christ reveals the NEXT truth to him -- at which point Peter says "Oh NO Lord - may it never BE"..

Then comes the statement "Get thee behind me Satan".

Abraham could have lost salvation simply by telling God "I am done with truth now -- I have all that I need - go work with someone else".

In Romans 8 we see that "IF by the Spirit you are PUTTING to death the deeds of the flesh THEN are you the children of God" it is an active living - breathing WALK - not a legalistic and Calvinist "ten years ago I said the sinner's prayer".

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Tell me, what if Abraham would have said "no" to God's requirement of circumcision?

Abraham could have lost salvation simply by telling God "I am done with truth now -- I have all that I need - go work with someone else".

So Abraham would have been cut off (lost)? If Abraham was already justified by faith why did God require circumcision?

Rob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Bob

Abraham could have lost salvation simply by telling God "I am done with truth now -- I have all that I need - go work with someone else".[/quote']

So Abraham would have been cut off (lost)? If Abraham was already justified by faith why did God require circumcision?

Rob

Justification is conditional. It is not unconditional. It is conditioned upon our response to God. God doesn't force us to be saved. If Abraham had told God he wasn't going to leave Haran, he obviously wouldn't have been the Father of the Faithful, would he? We can lose justification. That is extremely important to understand.

And no, that doesn't mean Abraham's obedience earned him justification. That would like saying the drowning man who grabs the rope thrown to him is earning his salvation. Faith in God is just that: the empty hand reaching out to receive God's gift.

God required circumcision because Abraham had failed to trust God in the matter of the birth of the son of promise. Abraham thought he needed to help God, and in this he was completely wrong. So he and all his posterity-- the physical Jews-- were required to circumcise the foreskin of their reproductive organ as a sign or reminder of faith in God, showing they would have faith in Him rather than in the flesh.

God calls on us today to have circumcision of the heart, which is much more important to God. Jer. 4: 4; Phil. 3: 3.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Bob

Abraham could have lost salvation simply by telling God "I am done with truth now -- I have all that I need - go work with someone else".[/quote']

So Abraham would have been cut off (lost)? If Abraham was already justified by faith why did God require circumcision?

Rob

It is true -- I am not Calvinist when it comes to that OSAS idea.

Free will means that we can be lost after becoming saved. That is the Arminian position. (Adventism is Arminian not Calvinist - BTW so I am sure you knew I was going to say that)

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

God required circumcision because Abraham had failed to trust God in the matter of the birth of the son of promise. Abraham thought he needed to help God, and in this he was completely wrong. So he and all his posterity-- the physical Jews-- were required to circumcise the foreskin of their reproductive organ as a sign or reminder of faith in God, showing they would have faith in Him rather than in the flesh.

Gen 17:9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.....14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Nothing old covenant in that statement....Nothing! But you say, "God calls on us today to have circumcision of the heart, which is much more important to God."

You know what? Your assumption, "which is much more important to God", is just that...an assumption. Do you now speak for God, John?

I don't see where circumcision, as given to Abraham, came to and end. It was a sign of the justification he already had by faith. Failure to accepted it means he really didn't believe that he stood justified by faith alone. That would make him a legalist. A legalist is one who is "under law" and under law you will be cut off. Why? You ain't measuring up.

Now the Judaizers, like many SDA do with another sign, took the sign of circumcision and made it a sign by which to glory in the flesh. In other words they made the sign, which pointed to justification, the means of justification. They made it salvation by circumcision, the very opposite reason it was given to Abraham.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

It is true -- I am not Calvinist when it comes to that OSAS idea.

Free will means that we can be lost after becoming saved. That is the Arminian position. (Adventism is Arminian not Calvinist - BTW so I am sure you knew I was going to say that)

in Christ,

Bob

You are dodging my question....

[BobRyan]

I said I thought he would lose salvation.

I pointed out that Adventists do not agree with the OSAS doctrine.

I gave an example of Peter reaching the same kind of dividing line - and then turning to Christ instead of crossing over it.

What did I miss?

Circumcision was a sign given to males not females -- and was not an indication that women were not justified. Romans 2 points to the fact that the true value is not the physical one (its is not like an OT saint could be circumcised INSTEAD of being justified or born-again -- that would be "another Gospel")

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Circumcision was a sign given to males not females -- and was not an indication that women were not justified.

Who was the promise made to? Abraham.

Now who turned Abraham's ear away from the Lord's promise?

Right, Abraham's wife. It was her idea and Abraham, like any good husband, complied. Both disbelieved God's promise.

This sign was also a reminder to Abraham's wife. She saw that mark every time they had relationships....So it was a reminder to both parties.

You have failed to understand why God gave Abraham this sign. Likewise you don't understand why the Judiazers' demand for circumcision was legalistic. And this, no doubt, bleeds over into your Sabbath keeping.

Rob

[Robert]

Quote:

Failure to realize this leads to legalism.

Rob. I am honestly trying hard to understand this. Could you go further for me in my ignorance and slow mind ... and explain how it leads to legalism.

Both the Sabbath and circumcision are symbols...seals...that point to a truth, right?

True circumcision was given as a sign, in the flesh, not to have confidence in any human works. For example, when God states that you are justified by faith alone, do you believe Him or do you try to help Him through a system of good works?

Likewise Abraham was justified by faith alone. Circumcision didn't save him because he was already saved by faith alone. The problem was that Abraham's faith was immature. How so? Again, he tried to help God produce the child of promise, something God said He would complete. That was an act of unbelief! It was legalistic....

What did God do in response to this unbelief? God waited many more years after Abraham and Sarah's initial act of unbelief. He waited until it was biologically impossible for either of them to help Him produce the child of promise. Then God performed a miracle.

After this God gave Abraham the sign of circumcision. It was a seal of the righteousness he had by faith even in his immaturity and unbelief. If Abraham would of refused this sign he would be outwardly refusing to acknowledge his justification by faith alone.

Now compare this truth to another sign, the Sabbath. True Sabbath keeping will become a seal not to have confidence in one's works, but instead what God promised in the doing and dying of Christ.

Just as you were justified by faith alone when you believed, your Sabbath keeping (as taught by your church) didn't save you because you were already saved by faith alone.

The problem was that your faith was immature in the beginning, am I right? It seems that we all start out making all sorts of promises to God such as, "I'll be good"! In return, we think, God will give us heaven. This, of course, is unbelief. Everyone starts out this way....

In the same manner that God waited many years after Abraham and Sarah's initial act of unbelief, God is waiting for His gospel to be fully restored. When it is restored all true believers will then see the impossibility of gaining heaven through any type of works.

After God's people have heard the gospel and the call goes out to come out of Babylon (i.e., those institutions who have rejected the everlasting gospel), God will then make the Sabbath a seal of justification by faith alone.

Failure to then receive this seal outwardly means that one doesn't really believe that he is saved through faith in Christ alone. At this point he is sealed...i.e., he is totally dependent on God's promise of salvation "in Christ" and nothing else.

That is future, just as circumcision was future for Abraham. Again, always remember that a seal or sign points to a truth. The sign is not the truth. What it points to is the truth.

John says that the Sabbath points to a perfect creation and that God is resting from His creation every 7th day. Well, the Sabbath did point to this truth before the fall, but since the fall God has been working very hard to restore His fallen creation back to Eden's perfection.

So if you keep the Sabbath as it points to a perfect creation (and insists that others obey too) you are perpetuating legalism. Again why? Always remember that a seal or sign points to a truth.

Does the Sabbath now point to a perfect creation?

Is God resting from that perfect creation?

The only answers are "no" and "no"!

To demand that it's God's will to keep it anyway is legalism. Anyone that does this is doing the same as the Judaizers did with circumcision. In other words God said it so you better do it or it's going to be too bad for you.

Well, God isn't like George Bush who always uses scare tactics to get his way. God says, "let us reason"....

Again, always ask yourself, "why I am doing what I am doing?" Is it out of tradition? Has some modern day Judaizer scared me into doing something I really don't understand? When someone comes to you and says, "Thus saith the Lord" tell him he ain't the Lord! He may have it wrong....Watch out!

[Woody]

Quote:

Again, always ask yourself, "why I am doing what I am doing?" Is it out of tradition?

Please forgive me Robert. I've read all that you wrote. But perhaps my mind is too dense. But I just can't understand what you are after. You may be right and me dense.

But to answer your question ....

I keep the Sabbath in remembrance of Him. I don't need to even get into the signs or perfection issues. He asked me to remember and I think it is good advice.

I am almost legalistic in my keeping of the Sabbath. I make rules for myself about what I can do and what I can't do. I guard the edges of the Sabbath. IOWs I watch the clock and make sure I don't do anything secular during the Sabbath hours.

Why would I do this? Because I don't want to go down the slippery slope that some have done. I don't want to lose the Sabbath. If I don't carefully guard it ... some day I will find out that I have forgotten God.

My Sabbath is reserved to making sure I am worshipping and thinking of him ALL during the Sabbath hours. I do only those things that ensure and promote my relationship with Jesus.

Thus ... during the Sabbath hours ... I don't find that the atmosphere of an restaurant is condusive of being connected with Jesus. I don't find that doing sports allow me to think of Jesus. I don't find that talking about the Presidential race and all the dirty politics is condusive to me reflecting on Jesus.

I don't condemn those who do the above activities. I am just at the point of my life where I want to carefully guard my time with my Saviour during these hours.

Now ... I just have to hope that you don't place my in the catagories that you place John317 and Gerry. Please don't do that. Hang in there with me ....

[Robert]

I keep the Sabbath in remembrance of Him. I don't need to even get into the signs or perfection issues. He asked me to remember....

[Woody]

Thanks Rob. I appreciate your thoughts.

I am not certain of how the Sabbath will come out in the end. But I believe that what ever God does ... it will be just and HE will provide the power for those who are IN Christ.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I keep the Sabbath in remembrance of Him. I don't need to even get into the signs or perfection issues. He asked me to remember....

Well, why? Ask questions....Don't be afraid of God. Reason it out with Him. He is your Father...God is love. He loves you more than Himself. He lives for you ...He is your servant for He lives to serve.

Quote:

I am almost legalistic in my keeping of the Sabbath. I make rules for myself about what I can do and what I can't do.

Well, you said "For myself". Now if you come to to me and say, "Thus saith the Lord" and insist I do as you, well, that's legalism. I don't see you doing that.

Most Sunday keepers do so because they are celebrating the resurrection of the Lord. That's fine...nothing wrong with that, but if they insist that I do the same...well, legalism.

Quote:

I don't condemn those who do the above activities.

And you shouldn't....I don't see legalism here. I might not agree with your reason, but I don't see this "do as I say" or "Thus saith the Lord".....

Quote:

I just have to hope that you don't place my in the catagories that you place John317 and Gerry. Please don't do that. Hang in there with me ....

Be concerned about how God sees you, not me....God looks at the motive, not so much the act.

Sunday keepers might be keeping the wrong day, but their motive is right. They are resting in God's finished work of redemption. Likewise, many SDA have the right day, but they aren't resting...they are trying to help God save them....Hence their Sabbath keeping is a contradiction of JBF!

So we should not judge. The Sabbath will become an issue in the future. It will be the seal of JBF. That's the way I see it...I might be wrong...I might be right, but it really doesn't matter because we stand justified by faith alone right now.

Rob

Wow I am so sorry you know SDA's like that. I know plenty of them and I travel extensively but I have met very very few SDA's who are "trying to help God save them" by any commandment keeping or good works. They realize they are saved through grace alone. I am sorry you know apparently so many SDA's to the contrary.

[Taylor]

Thanks Rob. I appreciate your thoughts.

I am not certain of how the Sabbath will come out in the end. But I believe that what ever God does ... it will be just and HE will provide the power for those who are IN Christ.

Yes God is always just and true. We can completely trust him. What a wonderful God we serve!

[Taylor]

And Redwood, I commend you for keeping the Sabbath so carefully, not to be saved but because you value that special time with Jesus so much. The Sabbath is a priviledge and such a joy!