Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[John317]

The law of God will condemn you if you continue to deliberately sin and you do not repent of it and make confession. You have already said that this is true. People are not justified unconditionally.

THE LAW DID NOT DIE. We died to sin, but the law is still very much in force

The law sees the believer as dead if he truly died with Christ by faith, but what happens if they never really died in Christ but are still alive? And what happens if he did not have genuine faith which works by love?

[John317]

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The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption

So, the law is binding then, right?

"Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

What does "binding" mean in the context? Aren't we talking about what God's will is-- what God requires?

Did Jesus die so you can go on sinning?

Or did He die so you can be saved from your sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

[Robert]

The law of God will condemn you if you continue to deliberately sin and you do not repent of it and make confession.

[Robert]

Did Jesus die so you can go on sinning?

Or did He die so you can be saved from your sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons...

Christ came to deliver us from under law - i.e., obey and live, disobey and die.

Rob

[Robert]

What does "binding" mean in the context? Aren't we talking about what God's will is-- what God requires?

IF God's will is for you to keep the law they why did He deliver you from "under the law"?

By "keep" I mean live Christ's life because that's obedience. Everything else doesn't measure up.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

It's clear, then, that the fact that the Gentiles knew the difference between right and wrong in terms of some sins, doesn't mean there is no need for preaching and further learning of the Word of God.

John...man, you like those rules. Pack 'm on...load 'm down. Rules, rules, rules.

The Ten Commandments are only "rules" to those who are walking in the flesh, under the Old Covenant. That is the man of Romans 7. To those who have the Holy Spirit in them and who are walking in the Holy Spirit, they are not merely exterior rules. See Romans 8: 1-6. This is what the promise of the New Covenant is all about-- these moral laws become a part of our very lives and not something we feel compelled to obey against our will.

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The day you live Christ's life of selflessness that day I'll say John is a holy man. Until then, you are a sinner.

You've already made it plain, however, that it is impossible as far as you are concerned for anyone to life Christ's life of selflessness.

What you do not apparently understand is we are both holy and sinners at the same time. We are set apart as holy as soon as we are justified when we put all our faith and confidence in Christ. There is 1 John 1 which shows that as long as we are in a faith-based relationship with Christ and being honest with God, He takes care of our sins and cleanses us from all unrighteousness. As we continue to put our faith in Him and keep walking in the light by the power of the Holy Spirit, He keeps sanctifying us.

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The Gentiles were experiencing genuine agape love that is in harmony with the last 6 commandments.

You won't see anything in the Bible that says God expects Christians to obey only the last 6 commandments. Then chain has 10 links, not 6. James says that if you break one link-- one commandment in the moral law-- then in reality you've broken all of them.

James is not saying don't worry about it.

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If you think about it, my not working has nothing to do with sin. My not working is only a sign....The fact I don't work on the 7th day doesn't negate the fact that I am sinful. So the "not working" doesn't make me sinless.

Whoever said that keeping the Sabbath makes you sinless?

Should I have that idea about anything else? Should I say, "well since not stealing won't make me sinless, I guess I might as well go out and steal"?

That doesn't make sense, does it?

So why say it of the Sabbath?

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Anyway, here's the final word on the Sabbath:

1] The Sabbath of creation became insignificant after the fall.

It's obvious that the Sabbath had significance BEFORE the fall. Or did God bless and sanctify the seventh day just for Himself?

Even non-SDAs and Sunday keepers acknowledge that the Sabbath had meaning before the Fall.

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2] This was substantiated when the restored law changed the meaning that the Sabbath was kept.

Give me the name anyone besides you and maybe Jack S. who believes this. I've been studying this material for years, and I have never run across such an idea, nor have you provided evidence for it, except your idea that Deut. 5 shows the change.

Your whole thesis falls flat on its face when you consider the fact that the seventh-day was holy and blessed for only one reason, and that was the creation. Also there's the facts of the Dead Sea Scrolls evidence for the original reading of Deut. 5, which you ignore, and the testimony of the Spirit of prophecy which is in complete agreement with the evidence of Scripture.

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3] Since I was not saved from Egyptian bondage the Sabbath is meaningless to me.

OK, the Sabbath is meaningless to you.

The Bible uses salvation from Egypt as a type of salvation from sin. Being saved from Egyptians slavery goes much further than literal Egypt. See Hebrews 3; Rev. 11:8. The Savior who brought His people out of Egyptian slavery is the same One who brings out out of slavery to sin. Romans 6: 16-22.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The law of God will condemn you if you continue to deliberately sin and you do not repent of it and make confession.

When did the law start taking confessions? I have never said, "Mr. law, I sorry...please forgive me!" That's silly.

Have you come to the point where you make no confessions to God for sins?

[John317]

The point is that being under the grace of God does not give you the right to continue to sin. And if you do continue to sin deliberately and willfully, and do not repent of it, you will find yourself outside of Christ and lost.

The Law is satisfied, yes, as long as you are in Christ-- that is, as long as you are in union with Jesus Christ, or as long as you have Christ. "He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the son of God hath not life" (1 John 5:12). "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." (Romans 8: 14).

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Did Jesus die so you can go on sinning?

Or did He die so you can be saved from your sins and be cleansed from all unrighteousness?

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons...

Christ came to deliver us from under law - i.e., obey and live, disobey and die.

Rob

Did he do this so people can keep living as they did before?

What does being "delivered from under law" actually mean?

What is the essential difference between the person who is "under law" and the person living "under grace"?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What does "binding" mean in the context? Aren't we talking about what God's will is-- what God requires?

IF God's will is for you to keep the law they why did He deliver you from "under the law"?

We may using terms differently. When I speak of "keeping the law," I am using it in the same sense that Paul used it in 1 Cor. 7: 19, and the same way that Rev. 12: 17 and 14: 12 speaks of it. Something tells me you think of "keeping the law" as a legalistic term. It isn't necessarily legalistic at all.

Being "under law" means being condemned by the law. It means we couldn't keep it. Romans 8 talks about it, after describing the man of Rom. 7 who can't keep the law and is condemned by it.

Being delivered from "under the law" doesn't mean giving us permission to sin but means that Christ delivers us from the dominion and domination of sin. God credits us with Christ's righteousness and sends the Holy Spirit to empower us to live for God, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The Spirit leads us to obey God, not disobey.

The following is taken from "The Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible," which, of course, is not SDA--

Quote:

It must be stressed that the moral law, as summarized in the Ten Commandments and detailed in the ethical teaching of both Testaments, is one coherent law, given to be a code of practice for God's people of every age. The Spirit is given to empower law-keeping and to make us more and more like Christ, the archetypal law-keeper (Matt. 5: 17). This law-keeping is in fact the fulfilling of our human nature, and Scripture holds out no hope of salvation to any who do not seek to turn from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Rev. 21: 8). p. 1828

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ROBERT-- By "keep" I mean live Christ's life because that's obedience. Everything else doesn't measure up.

Yes, Christ certainly kept the law of God and obeyed all ten of the commandments.

However, you have told me that you don't believe anyone except Christ has lived Christ's life. So according to your definition, no one has ever obeyed. Is this how you view "keeping the commandments"? An impossible task?

[Woody]

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However, you have told me that you don't believe anyone except Christ has lived Christ's life. So according to your definition, no one has ever obeyed. Is this how you view "keeping the commandments"? An impossible task?

Can anyone name someone who has "lived Christ's life" or kept the commandments?

If so ... we could be saved by them. But no ... Christ is the only one who we can be saved by. He is the ONLY one who has lived the perfect life.

When we get to Heaven ... we will live the perfect life. We will not sin. But as long as we are on this earth ... we will sin. NO life will have a perfect record because if they did ... they would not need Christ's Robe of Righteousness.

[John317]

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However, you have told me that you don't believe anyone except Christ has lived Christ's life. So according to your definition, no one has ever obeyed. Is this how you view "keeping the commandments"? An impossible task?

Can anyone name someone who has "lived Christ's life" or kept the commandments? ...

If no one has ever obeyed God's commandments, what sense do the following quotes make? What do these things mean if we say no one can or has obeyed God's commandments?

I believe these verses show that our understanding of what it means to obey God's commandments-- if we believe it means no one ever obeys them-- is wrong.

Are the verses talking about perfect obedience in which one is sinless? Or are they talking about faithfulness and living for God by His Spirit?

Does Romans 8: 4 perhaps shed light on what is meant?

1 John 2: 3,4--

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3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him...

1 John 5: 2, 3--

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2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.

3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

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Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right

to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Rev. 22:14

.... Then they that have kept God's commandments shall breathe in

immortal vigor beneath the tree of life; and through unending ages the

inhabitants of sinless worlds shall behold, in that garden of delight, a

sample of the perfect work of God's creation, untouched by the curse of

sin--a sample of what the whole earth would have become, had man but

fulfilled the Creator's glorious plan.

>From My Life Today - Page 340

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When God honors His commandment-keeping people, He would not have one of

the enemies of truth and righteousness absent. And when the transgressors of His law

receive their condemnation, He would have all the righteous behold the result of sin.... Last Day Events

Interesting to note that the above quote contrasts commandment-keepers with those who transgress God's law.

Are we to think that all are transgressors of God's laws?

If we say no one is a commandment-keeper, the sentence makes no sense.

Therefore, those are mistaken who say that no one keeps God's commandments and that everyone is a "transgressor of God's law" in the sense that is being used here.

How are we to reconcile this with the fact that the Bible clearly teaches that all humans are sinners and have need of a Savior?

[John317]

I'd be interested to know what you believe on two issues if you would care to share your thoughts:

1) Will believers who are sealed deliberately and knowingly commit sin after probation closes and Christ is no longer in the heavenly sanctuary?

2) What is Christ's Robe of Righteousness?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Refraining from work on the seventh day means the following important things:

1) It means that you recognize that God has the right to command you not to work.

You are selective, huh? There are other commands too, but you question them. Why?

Yes, there are other commands, but we cannot discuss all the commands at the same time. Let's talk about this one for now, because that's the subject of the thread. We can talk about all the others later. Perhaps you might open a thread on the command that you are thinking of.

But no, I am not selective. I am equally concerned about all the moral law, including the Sermon On the Mount and the letters of Paul, etc. However, as you know, the Sabbath is of particular interest, because there are many people who believe that it is no longer relevant.

And of course, as I think you are aware, the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8 attempted to transfer the sanctity of the Sabbath day to Sunday. For over billion Christians his attempt has worked, and now God is calling the attention of the world to the fact that His law and His Sabbath still stand. There is no question that God raised up the Seventh-day-Adventist church for this very purpose, to restore the gospel to its purity, which includes the right understanding of God's law and His Sabbath.

The teaching of the Sabbath is first of all the acknowledgment that God is the Creator and therefore has the right to command us to keep the Sabbath holy by resting on it.

In the same way, God had a right to tell Adam not to eat of the tree in the middle of Garden of Eden.

[John317]

I'm not here to change your mind, I'm here to save others from your theology - from a yoke of bondage!

God's law and the Sabbath are not a yoke of bondage when you see them from the viewpoint of Romans 8 and Galatians 5, and that is the perspective I'm taking toward God's moral law. It is the same viewpoint that the Spirit of prophecy has of the law of God. It is one of faith, from beginning to end.

Paul talks about it in Romans 1:5 and 16: 26. It is the kind of obedience that God is seeking, the obedience that springs from trust and confidence in Him.

When the Holy Spirit is in the life, and when we understand the purpose of God's law and the Sabbath, we are excited about doing God's will.

Please study the following from the prophet of God, the same source which Jack Sequeira quotes many hundreds of time as an authority in his books:

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Written On The Heart

After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward

parts, and write it in their hearts. . . . I will forgive their

iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Jer. 31:33, 34.

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone, is written by

the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to

establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ.

His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then

the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth "the fruits of the

Spirit." Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the

law of God written upon our hearts. Having the Spirit of Christ, we

shall walk even as He walked.

There are two errors against which the children of God-particularly

those who have just come to trust in His grace-especially need to guard.

The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to

anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who

is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is

attempting an impossibility. . . .

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ

releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we

become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do

with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it

not shape the life? . . . Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is

faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ,

which enables us to render obedience. . . .

Where there is not only a belief in God's Word, but a submission of the

will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed

upon Him, there is faith-faith that works by love, and purifies the

soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And

the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God,

neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming

with the psalmist, "O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the

day" (Ps. 119:97). And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us,

"who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Rom. 8:1).

>From Devotional: Our Father Cares, p. 206.

[John317]

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John3:17-- We are not talking about obedience in order to earn merit or earn justification.

ROBERT-- ....You are making the Sabbath binding....That is legalism. If you make the Sabbath binding, you must make the whole law binding. Hence you must live Christ's life. That you are not doing and hence you have no right to push the Sabbath on me or anyone else. Comprehend?

If by "binding," you mean that the moral law-- including the Sabbath-- is the standard of Christian living, yes, then, I do certainly believe it is binding.

Is the 1st commandment binding? What about the third or tenth commandment-- are they binding? Do we have any obligation to God to obey Him?

Suppose someone decides they have no more desire to obey God. What would happen if they jettisoned all the ten commandment? Would God be satisfied if they told him that the death of Christ released them from all obligation to obey His commandments?

I think you know as well as I do that the Ten Commandments are not the same as the ceremonial law or the law of circumcision. Or do you think they are all the same?

I have over a dozen study Bibles which make a clear distinction between the the ceremonial, civil, and moral law. This distinction is well recognized.

The moral law defines sin and points it out. The ceremonial law was given to show us the solution of the sin problem. The civil law are those laws that deal with Israel while in the wilderness, under particular social circumstances. Nobody believes that God's will is for us to obey all of those laws today. Yet virtually all of the Christian churches teach that people should still obey the moral law, as summarized in the Ten Commandments.

An example-- and many more could be given---

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"The Spirit of the Reformation Study Bible," which, of course, is not SDA--

Quote:

It must be stressed that the moral law, as summarized in the Ten Commandments and detailed in the ethical teaching of both Testaments, is one coherent law, given to be a code of practice for God's people of every age. The Spirit is given to empower law-keeping and to make us more and more like Christ, the archetypal law-keeper (Matt. 5: 17). This law-keeping is in fact the fulfilling of our human nature, and Scripture holds out no hope of salvation to any who do not seek to turn from sin to righteousness (1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Rev. 21: 8). p. 1828

[John317]

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You died to the law in the body of Christ. The law sees you as dead and hence the law can no longer condemn you.

Thank you Rob and praise God for what you have said here. This is the gospel in a nutshell. There is no longer any condemnation for those IN Christ.

Appreciate you reminding us ...

WE have to make up our minds whether we believe what Robert is saying or whether we believe what the Spirit of prophecy says. They can't both be right.

(I'm not saying Robert doesn't a lot of good things, too. But consider the present subject.)

Here are just a few of his statements:

Quote:

Was Sabbath Just for Jews-- Post 192071-- 10/10/08

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy?

ROBERT-- The day isn't holy...... Days aren't holy.... [holy].

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why does it matter which day of the week they keep holy?

ROBERT-- It doesn't....

Quote:

#191977; 10-10-08

Was Sabbath Just For Jews?

Originally Posted By: John317

Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking."

ROBERT-- No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin!...

Robert has said over and over again that faith releases us from obedience to the moral law of God. Compare that with what the Spirit of prophecy says:

Quote:

There are two errors against which the children of God-particularly

those who have just come to trust in His grace-especially need to guard.

The first . . . is that of looking to their own works, trusting to

anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who

is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is

attempting an impossibility. . . .

The opposite and no less dangerous error is, that belief in Christ

releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we

become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do

with our redemption. . . . If the law is written in the heart, will it

not shape the life? . . . Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is

faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ,

which enables us to render obedience. . . . SC

[John317]

Quote:

You died to the law in the body of Christ. The law sees you as dead and hence the law can no longer condemn you.

Thank you Rob and praise God for what you have said here. This is the gospel in a nutshell. There is no longer any condemnation for those IN Christ.

Appreciate you reminding us ...

It's a false gospel which teaches that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the moral law of God.

Something should tell you that this gospel is a broad road that leads to destruction. The Spirit of prophecy plainly calls such an idea "a dangerous error." Why dangerous? Because it will result in the believer's eternal loss if he accepts it and acts upon it.

Quote:

There are many who fail to understand the relation of faith and works. They say, "Only believe in Christ, and you are safe. You have nothing to do with keeping the law." But genuine faith will be manifest in obedience. Said Christ to the unbelieving Jews, "If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham." John 8:39. And concerning the father of the faithful the Lord declares, "Abraham obeyed My voice, and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5. Says the apostle James, "Faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17. And John, who dwells so fully upon love, tells us, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." 1 John 5:3.

Through type and promise God "preached before the gospel unto Abraham." Galatians 3:8. And the patriarch's faith was fixed upon the Redeemer to come. Said Christ to the Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced that he should see My day; and he saw it, and was glad." John 8:56, R.V., margin. The ram offered in the place of Isaac represented the Son of God, who was to be sacrificed in our stead. When man was doomed to death by transgression of the law of God, the Father, looking upon His Son, said to the sinner, "Live: I have found a ransom."

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The point is that being under the grace of God does not give you the right to continue to sin.

No the point is you bore false witness and now you are trying to cover up.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come' date=' God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5 to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons...

Christ came to deliver us from under law - i.e., obey and live, disobey and die.

Rob[/quote']

What does being "delivered from under law" actually mean?

It means you have been delivered from "obey and live, disobey and die".

[Robert]

Being "under law" means being condemned by the law.

No! That again is bearing false witness. Being under law means that the law has jurisdiction over you. The law's demands are twofold:

1] Obey and live

2] Disobey and die

Here's a good example:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty.

Note that "obey and live" is the same as "This do, and thou shalt live".

And "disobey and die" is the same as "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them."

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

No the point is you bore false witness and now you are trying to cover up.

How did I bear false witness?

And how am I trying to cover up? Cover up what?

[Robert]

Yes, Christ certainly kept the law of God and obeyed all ten of the commandments.

He obeyed much more than just 10 brief rules. The law is spiritual....He came to expand on the law. He showed that self-seeking is the essence of sin. He came to make sin exceedingly sinful.

And Christ didn't keep the Sabbath. He was the fulfillment of the Sabbath. The Sabbath points to His finished work of redemption.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, Christ certainly kept the law of God and obeyed all ten of the commandments.

He obeyed much more than just 10 brief rules. The law is spiritual....He came to expand on the law. He showed that self-seeking is the essence of sin. He came to make sin exceedingly sinful.

And Christ didn't keep the Sabbath. He was the fulfillment of the Sabbath. The Sabbath points to His finished work of redemption.

1) Did Jesus Christ beak any of the 10 commandments?

2) Did He disobey the Sabbath Commandments?

What does "keep the Sabbath" mean?

The Sabbath also points to the creation because that is the only reason the seventh day of the week was blessed and holy. No other reason.

[Robert]

But no, I am not selective.

No, you are selective! You push the Sabbath, but you fail to live Christ's selfless life. You fail to be the servant of all. There's self-seeking and self-love in your life. These sins alone will keep you out of heaven. So are you sure that you desire to be under the jurisdiction of the law? Are you sure the commandments are binding on you?

Rob