Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. You are exactly right, Bob. The problem, however, on this thread at least, is that our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) He believes that at some point in the future people will obey God's commandments but no one is doing it now. This is despite the fact that there are many verses that have no meaning or do not make sense if no one keeps God's commandments. For instance, 1 John 2, 3, and 5. He also believes that 1 Cor. 7: 19 is not talking about the Ten Commandments. The evidence is overwhelming in support of what you say, but..... Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Quote: He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning All sin and fall short of the glory of God. If you know of anyone who has achieved the status that would exempt them from the curse of the Law ... then stand up and proclaim. The only one who can answer the curse of the Law ... is Jesus Christ our Saviour and Redeemer. And He is my friend. Thus ... the curse of the Law can not touch me. For I have the Robe of Christ covering me. And the life of Jesus is placed to my account. My life is as a hill of beans or as filthy rags towards my salvation. It is HIS life that brings me salvation. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Quote: He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning All sin and fall short of the glory of God. This is true, but does "falling short" in the Biblical sense mean that those who fall short are not keeping the commandments of God? For instance, when 1 John 5: 2, 3 says the love of God is keeping His commandments, does it mean no one keeps the commandments and therefore no one loves God? The same kind of question pertains to 1 John 2: 3, 4. There are dozens of Ellen White quotes that do not make sense if we believe that no one keeps the commandments of God, and the same may be said of Rev. 12:17; 14: 12; and 22:14. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Quote: does it mean no one keeps the commandments and therefore no one loves God? It means what Rob is saying ... All sin. And NO ONE can answer the curse of the Law . No one. We must have the life of Jesus placed to our account to answer the curse. No matter how holy we become ... we will never be able to answer the curse. The answer is wholely in Jesus. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Quote: does it mean no one keeps the commandments and therefore no one loves God? It means what Rob is saying ... The Bible and the Spirit of prophecy speak of believers "keeping the commandments of God." Yet they are still sinful. That is granted. The question is, is it true that no one keeps the commandments of God? We do fall short of God's glorious ideal for us, that is true. But is that the same as deliberately and willfully practicing sin? Many fail to understand that Jesus is knocking on our heart's door. But He cannot enter unless the house is cleaned. "When they subdue those sins which God hates, Jesus will come in and sup with them and they with Him." 1 T 186 [sERMON ATTORRE PELLICE, ITALY, DECEMBER 3, 1885.]-By Mrs. E. G. White.- Quote: Many say that all we have to do is to believe, but they make the service of Christ altogether too superficial. They are satisfied with a nominal belief in Christ; but it is not enough to merely assert that Jesus is the Son of God. We must abide in him as the branch abides in the vine. We must have an experimental faith, a faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Then we have evidence that we bear fruit to the glory of God. What is it to bear fruit to the glory of God? It is to manifest the love of Jesus in our daily life, to be kind and courteous and forbearing to those around us, and to try to lead them to the Saviour. The divine light that shines in the face of Jesus shines also in the heart of the believers, and they walk in the light as he is in the light. That same Jesus represents himself as standing at the door of our hearts and knocking for entrance. Every one of us has a work to do to open the door, if we would have Jesus as our guest. The work of perfecting the soul through obedience to all God's requirements must be constantly going on in our lives. If we regard iniquity in our hearts, the Lord will not hear us. Will you open the door of the heart, and let the light of heaven in? Will you just now invite Jesus as a welcome guest to take possession of your heart? We should desire his presence above everything else on the earth. We should regard him as the one altogether lovely, the chief among ten thousand. Why do we keep the door of the heart closed, when he has given us such a gracious invitation to open the door and let him in? The Signs of the Times , March 3, 1890 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 16, 2008 Moderators Posted October 16, 2008 Quote: does it mean no one keeps the commandments and therefore no one loves God? It means what Rob is saying ... All sin. And NO ONE can answer the curse of the Law . No one. We must have the life of Jesus placed to our account to answer the curse. No matter how holy we become ... we will never be able to answer the curse. The answer is wholely in Jesus. Our obedience to God does not answer the curse of the law. No one is even suggesting that. Jesus takes the curse. Read 1 John 1: 5-10. These verses make it obvious that by God's grace, people are enabled to obey the commandments of God: John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" "The work of perfecting the soul through obedience to all God's requirements must be constantly going on in our lives. If we regard iniquity in our hearts, the Lord will not hear us." Faith in Christ does not us release from obedience to the moral law. The Bible clearly shows this and so does the Spirit of prophecy. The moral law is the standard of the Christian life. This standard includes the Sabbath commandment. Is the weekly Sabbath part of the New Covenant? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert “Now' date=' the Sabbath is not yet the seal of God and Sunday is not yet the mark of the beast because these two days have not as yet been linked with these two concepts. [JS'] Jack doesn't mean that Sabbath-breaking is not a sin. He means that Sunday keeping is not yet the mark of the beast. That is not a new concept, of course. I don't know of any Adventist who believes otherwise. I think you missed something: "Now (i.e., in 2008) The Sabbath is not yet the seal of God" Quote
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The end-time Sabbath will have nothing to do with the 4th commandment! You are so very confused. In order to say that, you have to reject the book of Revelation (12:17; 14:12) as well as everything the Spirit of prophecy says about it. No, I only need to reject your interpretation of Revelation, which is a highly symbolic book. As to Ellen White, sorry - not the measuring stick of truth. rob Quote
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. Bob Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Quote
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. You are exactly right, Bob. The problem, however, on this thread at least, is that our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) Ahhh yes -- non-stop rebellion as "the only choice for saints". "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man... God is FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able - but will WITH the temptation provide the way of escape" 1Cor 10. No wonder Paul says in Romans 6 that WHATEVER you claim is "always overcomming you" is in fact "your master" -- you are the slave of the one you serve -- either Christ or sin as Paul says in Romans 6. But there are those who would argue "the GOOD NEWS is that the saints are doomed to slavery to sin just like they were before being saved". The argument today is more "God is NOT faithful to limit those temptations AND provide the way of escape -- so non stop rebellion is your ONLY option". Is this really the message you want to give to wife-abusers? Child abusers? mass murderers? Is the solution REALLY supposed to be "yes I see your problem -- well one day you will go to heaven and then you can stop abusing your children"??? When we talk to those who are breaking Sabbath or praying to the dead or worshipping idols or worshipping bread -- do we REALLY say "hey there is no other choice so no need to change". On no wait -- these are the "profane sins" that they CAN stop -- it is just the sacred sins they can NOT stop eh?? As you point out John - I am not sure they are thinking this through. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
BobRyan Posted October 16, 2008 Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. Bob Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Hmm so you are saying that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" have always been the greatest commandments upon which all the others (including THE Ten) are based? That is their solid "foundation"? hmm well then -- we agree! Those OT commandments continue just as you point out with Lev 19 in your statement above. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 The problem, however, on this thread at least, is that our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) Quote
Robert Posted October 16, 2008 Author Posted October 16, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Hmm so you are saying that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" have always been the greatest commandments upon which all the others (including THE Ten) are based? No, Paul didn't mean this! He means what he said in Gal 5:14. Faith faith fulfills the first, four (if you will) in the NT. If I believe in Christ I will not accept any false gospels. If I believe in Christ I will not use his name in a derogatory manner, not out of fear, but because He loves me (a sinner) more than Himself. And if I believe in Christ I will rest in His complete work of redemption, of which I cannot not add one thing. I am compete "in Him." In return I begin to grow. This love is in harmony with "love your neighbor as yourself." Quote
BobRyan Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan Hmm so you are saying that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" and Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" have always been the greatest commandments upon which all the others (including THE Ten) are based? No' date=' Paul didn't mean this! [/quote'] Really??? Jesus meant it -- in Matt 22 but Paul meant to contradict Christ? OR do you think Paul was making his argument fully compatible with the argument of Christ. Recall Paul's statement in Rom 13 on this same point about Love for your neighbor? Quote: If I believe in Christ I will not accept any false gospels. Is it your claim that Christ was preaching a false Gospel in Matt 22 as he argued pre-cross that Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5 were the rock-solid foundations of the LAW -- foundatoins that UPHOLD it? Is it your claim that Paul is preaching a false Gospel in Rom 3:31 when he says our faith ESTABLISHES the Law of God? Is it your claim that Paul is arguing for a false Gospel in 1Cor 7:19 "but what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God"?? At what point did we begin talking about your false gospel? what brings it up? Christ's argument that the FOUNDATION of His LAW is Lev 19:18 and Deut 6:5?? Quote: If I believe in Christ I will not use his name in a derogatory manner, not out of fear, but because He loves me (a sinner) more than Himself. And if I believe in Christ I will rest in His complete work of redemption, of which I cannot not add one thing. I am compete "in Him." In return I begin to grow. This love is in harmony with "love your neighbor as yourself." How is that any different from the same thing we see in Heb 11 list of saints -- from the OT? Recall "The GOSPEL was preached to US just as it was to THEM as well" Heb 4:1. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Jack doesn't mean that Sabbath-breaking is not a sin. He means that Sunday keeping is not yet the mark of the beast. That is not a new concept, of course. I don't know of any Adventist who believes otherwise. Quote: ROBERT-- I think you missed something: "Now (i.e., in 2008) The Sabbath is not yet the seal of God" (A) The Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant; ( The Sabbath IS NOW a sign of God's authority and the sign of loyalty to God: "The Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. It points to God as the Creator, and is the sign of His rightful authority over the beings He has made."// "True observance of the Sabbath is the sign of loyalty to God."--7BC 981 (1899). © Sunday keeping IS NOW a sign or mark of the authority of the man of sin, although no one has yet received the mark of the beast; (D) No one will receive the mark of the beast until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath; (E) Sabbath-breaking IS NOW transgression of the law of God, but God does not hold people responsible for it until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment; (F) Sunday worship IS NOW the sign of the beast's authority, and the Sabbath IS NOW the sign of God's authority. Documentation from the Spirit of prophecy: Quote: "The Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. It points to God as the Creator, and is the sign of His rightful authority over the beings He has made." "The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." "Wherever the papal Sabbath is honored in preference to the Sabbath of God, there the man of sin is exalted above the Creator of heaven and earth." //"The change of the Sabbath is a sign or mark of the authority of the Romish Church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath, which has been accepted by the world in the place of the day of God's appointment." The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 1 None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast. The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 2. Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a manmade institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (RH April 23, 1901). Sundaykeeping is not yet the mark of the beast, and will not be until the decree goes forth causing men to worship this idol sabbath. The time will come when this day will be the test, but that time has not come yet. 7BC 977 (1899).// No one has yet received the mark of the beast. The testing time has not yet come. There are true Christians in every church, not excepting the Roman Catholic communion. None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast. The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 2./// The change of the Sabbath is a sign or mark of the authority of the Romish Church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath, which has been accepted by the world in the place of the day of God's appointment.The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 1 Just as soon as the people of God are sealed in their foreheads--it is not any seal or mark that can be seen, but a settling into the truth, both intellectually and spiritually, so they cannot be moved--just as soon as God's people are sealed and prepared for the shaking, it will come. Indeed, it has begun already.--4BC 1161 (1902). True observance of the Sabbath is the sign of loyalty to God.--7BC 981 (1899). Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a manmade institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (RH April 23, 1901). If the light of truth has been presented to you, revealing the Sabbath of the fourth commandment, and showing that there is no foundation in the Word of God for Sunday observance, and yet you still cling to the false sabbath, refusing to keep holy the Sabbath which God calls "my holy day," you receive the mark of the beast. When does this take place? When you obey the decree that commands you to cease from labor on Sunday and worship God, while you know that there is not a word in the Bible showing Sunday to be other than a common working day, you consent to receive the mark of the beast, and refuse the seal of God. Maranatha (1976), page 211, paragraph 5 Not all who profess to keep the Sabbath will be sealed. There are many even among those who teach the truth to others who will not receive the seal of God in their foreheads. They had the light of truth, they knew their Master's will, they understood every point of our faith, but they had not corresponding works. . . . Maranatha (1976), page 240, paragraph 3 The enemies of God's law, from the ministers down to the least among them, have a new conception of truth and duty. Too late they see that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. Maranatha (1976), page 286, paragraph 6 This is the test that the people of God must have before they are sealed. All who prove their loyalty to God by observing his law, and refusing to accept a spurious Sabbath, will rank under the banner of the Lord God Jehovah, and will receive the seal of the living God. Those who yield the truth of heavenly origin, and accept the Sunday Sabbath, will receive the mark of the beast. What need will there be of the solemn warning not to receive the mark of the beast, when all the saints of God are sealed and ticketed for the New Jerusalem? "O consistency, thou art a jewel!" The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), page 701, paragraph 1 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Quote: does it mean no one keeps the commandments and therefore no one loves God? It means what Rob is saying ... All sin. And NO ONE can answer the curse of the Law . No one. We must have the life of Jesus placed to our account to answer the curse. No matter how holy we become ... we will never be able to answer the curse. The answer is wholely in Jesus. But that is not the question here. The question is not whether we can answer the curse of the law. Clearly only Christ did that. That's not in dispute. No one is making the case that we take the curse of the law or that we earn justification or salvation by keeping the law. The question is, do the statements in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy show that no one can keep the commandments of God? John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" "The work of perfecting the soul through obedience to all God's requirements must be constantly going on in our lives. If we regard iniquity in our hearts, the Lord will not hear us." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Jack doesn't mean that Sabbath-breaking is not a sin. He means that Sunday keeping is not yet the mark of the beast. That is not a new concept, of course. I don't know of any Adventist who believes otherwise. Quote: ROBERT-- I think you missed something: "Now (i.e., in 2008) The Sabbath is not yet the seal of God" For the Sabbath to be the seal of God, it must be a part of the New Covenant. God does not add something to the New Covenant AFTER it was ratified by the death of Jesus Christ. The means the Sabbath has always been a part of the New Covenant. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 In order to say that' date=' you have to reject the book of Revelation (12:17; 14:12) as well as everything the Spirit of prophecy says about it. No, I only need to reject your interpretation of Revelation, which is a highly symbolic book. [/quote'] I have the same interpretation of Rev. 14: 12 as Jack Sequeira has. He believes it is talking about a people who keep all of God's moral law, which he says elsewhere is the standard of the Christian life. See page 73 of Christ Speaks To Laodicea. They do not keep the commandments as works of law but as works of faith. But by the Holy Spirit in their lives, they do keep the whole moral law of God. Jack is talking about the imparted righteousness of Christ. See page 66 of Laodicea. These people have the mind of Christ. The seal of God is the mind of Christ. It is being seal into the truth about God so that one cannot be moved (p. 68 of Laodicea). Are you denying that they keep all of the moral law, including the Sabbath? What part of God's law do they deliberately, knowingly, willfully violate? Quote: As to Ellen White, sorry - not the measuring stick of truth. rob Of course the Bible is the measuring stick, but she is an authority, and you have no trouble quoting her as an authority when it is supporting your point. Jack Sequeira quotes her thousands of times, and you evidently have no objection to it. I find it interesting that you quote her when you like what she says, but you easily dismiss her when it doesn't support your theories. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The problem, however, on this thread at least, is that our friend Rob has been misled into believing that no one keeps the commandments of God. (He has defined sin in such a way that all are sinning all the time, and we cannot cease to sin.) ROBERT-- It's not just me saying that no one is measuring up! Read EGW: "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. But the law of self-sacrifice [agape love] is the law of self-preservation." [COL 86] She defines the law of self-sacrifice as a love that seeks not her own wealth, but another's. Clearly Jesus was not self-seeking for he had no place to lay His head. His whole life was one of a servant. If you are deluded that you are measuring up to Christ, Ellen has a little something for you: He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900] Those are all very good quotes, and I agree with all of them. Did you ever hear me claim that I am "measuring up"? You keep going back to that point whenever you have nothing else to say. You appear to be stuck in a legalistic viewpoint. Whether I am "measuring up" to the perfect standard of the law is not the point once you have been justified and are in a sincere and honest relationship with Christ. As long as I am in a personal, loving, faith-based relationship with Christ, He takes care of the fact that I'm not sinless. I thought you knew this already. I am sure you do know it, but you often talk as if you have forgotten it. We have to get beyond the point where we are concentrating on the fact that we are not perfectly measuring up to the legal demands of the law. It would be different if the believer is in rebellion against God's law and refusing to obey God. Say, for instance, I know that God does not want me to steal from my neighbor, but I keep doing it and I do not repent or confess. Then that sin becomes rebellion if I refuse to give it up. But let us say I repent of it and confess and turn away from doing that sin. Do you remember 1 John 1: 9 and 2: 1, 2? Quote: 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 2: 1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. Footnotes: Or He is the one who turns aside God's wrath, taking away our sins, and not only ours but also the sins of the whole world. Now having said that, we also must consider the other things the Bible says in the same context, things which do not contradict 1 John 1:9 and 2: 1,2 but are in complete harmony: Quote: 5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. ..... 3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan And this gets to the point that God makes repeatedly in the NT about His people keeing His commandments John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" 1Cor 7:19 "What matters is keeping the commandments of God" Rev 12:17 the saints are those who "keep the commandments of God" There is no "joyfully ignoring the commandments of God by faith" in all of scripture to contradict these texts. Bob Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no question that if we have true love for our neighbor we will not do any of the things the commandments of God tells us not to do. Do you agree? For instance, we won't steal from him or be dishonest with him, etc. And by the same token if we love God with all of our heart, we will obey all of the first 4 commandments. Do you agree? For instance, if I love God supremely, won't I want to make Him first in my life in every way, and won't I want to obey Him in every way I know? If I know that the Sabbath is the seal or sign of God's authority and that Sunday-keeping is the sign of the authority of the man of sin, won't I want to keep the Sabbath out of love and honor for my Creator and Redeemer? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted October 17, 2008 Author Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert "Now (i.e., in 2008) The Sabbath is not yet the seal of God" The Sabbath IS NOW a sign of God's authority and the sign of loyalty to God: "The Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. It points to God as the Creator, and is the sign of His rightful authority over the beings He has made."// "True observance of the Sabbath is the sign of loyalty to God."--7BC 981 (1899). Sorry, this is pure spin. Ellen White only had a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. What was that she stated? "We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed." I guess you are disappointed, huh John? Quote
Robert Posted October 17, 2008 Author Posted October 17, 2008 If I know that the Sabbath is the seal or sign of God's authority and that Sunday-keeping is the sign of the authority of the man of sin, won't I want to keep the Sabbath out of love and honor for my Creator and Redeemer? Typical spin...fear tactics.... If the Sabbath is now the seal of God, then Sunday is now the seal of the man of sin. The issues are future, but unlike the Holy Spirit, you are forcing the issue now. Rob Quote
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 If I know that the Sabbath is the seal or sign of God's authority and that Sunday-keeping is the sign of the authority of the man of sin, won't I want to keep the Sabbath out of love and honor for my Creator and Redeemer? Typical spin...fear tactics.... If the Sabbath is now the seal of God, then Sunday is now the seal of the man of sin. The issues are future, but unlike the Holy Spirit, you are forcing the issue now. The issues are now, not some time in the future. The issue of whether we obey God is not something that is merely for some point in the future. Is that what Jack teaches? Does he say that we don't need to be concerned about doing God's will until the Sunday law is passed? That is misunderstanding what he says. If you read carefully, you will see that the Sabbath is the seal of God NOW, and that Sunday is a mark of the authority of the man of sin. The mark of the beast is not received until the decree is passed, but Sunday worship is now a sin against the law of God. It is a sin of ignorance for most people, yet it is sin nevertheless. "Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded." "The Sabbath of the fourth commandment is the seal of the living God. It points to God as the Creator, and is the sign of His rightful authority over the beings He has made." "The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not." "Wherever the papal Sabbath is honored in preference to the Sabbath of God, there the man of sin is exalted above the Creator of heaven and earth." //"The change of the Sabbath is a sign or mark of the authority of the Romish Church. Those who, understanding the claims of the fourth commandment, choose to observe the false sabbath in the place of the true, are thereby paying homage to that power by which alone it is commanded. The mark of the beast is the papal sabbath, which has been accepted by the world in the place of the day of God's appointment." The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 1 None are condemned until they have had the light and have seen the obligation of the fourth commandment. But when the decree shall go forth enforcing the counterfeit sabbath, and the loud cry of the third angel shall warn men against the worship of the beast and his image, the line will be clearly drawn between the false and the true. Then those who still continue in transgression will receive the mark of the beast. The Signs of the Times , November 8, 1899, paragraph 2. Thus the distinction is drawn between the loyal and the disloyal. Those who desire to have the seal of God in their foreheads must keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. Thus they are distinguished from the disloyal, who have accepted a manmade institution in place of the true Sabbath. The observance of God's rest day is a mark of distinction between him that serveth God and him that serveth Him not (RH April 23, 1901). Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted October 17, 2008 Moderators Posted October 17, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 If I know that the Sabbath is the seal or sign of God's authority and that Sunday-keeping is the sign of the authority of the man of sin, won't I want to keep the Sabbath out of love and honor for my Creator and Redeemer? Typical spin...fear tactics.... Is that all you can say-- just repeat "spin"? That is a pretty empty position. Show that it is merely "spin". Anyone can say something is "spin". Was it "fear tactics" when Jesus told people to make sure they build on the Rock? Was it "fear tactics" when the writer of Hebrews said, "Be careful that none of you ever develop a wicked, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God"? Is it fear tactics for parents to tell their children the truth about what happens when they run into the street without looking? What would you of say of someone who refuses to listen to his doctor's warnings? Quote: If the Sabbath is now the seal of God, then Sunday is now the seal of the man of sin. The issues are future, but unlike the Holy Spirit, you are forcing the issue now. Sunday is even now the mark or sign of the authority of the man of sin, the papacy. When we keep that false sabbath and refuse to recognize the true Sabbath, we are now acknowledging the authority of the man of sin. People, out of ignorance, may not be doing this unintentionally and out of ignorance, yet nonetheless, they are accepting his authority to change the day. No one, though, is saying that people have received the mark of the beast. That is a separate issue. It should be obvious that for anything to be the seal of God, it must be part of the New Covenant. And for anything to be "the mark of the beast," it must be against God's law, or contrary to His will. It seems ridiculous to say that something is OK now but later it will be "the mark of the beast." If it is the mark of the beast at some point in the future, it should be obvious that it is not a good thing to do NOW. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
BobRyan Posted October 17, 2008 Posted October 17, 2008 There is no question that if we have true love for our neighbor we will not do any of the things the commandments of God tells us not to do. Do you agree? For instance, we won't steal from him or be dishonest with him, etc. And by the same token if we love God with all of our heart, we will obey all of the first 4 commandments. Do you agree? True. We would not be constantly trying to discount the Word of God in His own spoken commandments. No not even one of them. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316.
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