Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Sulla]

Ok the other thread on the subject has no debate but is a resource. So lets use this one to talk over the subject in a friendly manner.

----

So to start let me throw an idea out there and get some feedback on it. Since God can never let sin into heaven again. We know that is part of how we are judged fit for heaven. Now does that mean since he is all knowing and can judge the future he judges us on IF we would sin if let into heaven?

And here is another question. Will any one be lost that could have been saved?

[Woody]

The key to who will be saved ... is not their sins ... but did they repent of them. Richard Nies says that "No one will be lost because they sin ... they will be lost because they refuse pardon."

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright [scare] them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God."

....

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." PK 589

[Woody]

Thus ... those who will be going to heaven ... they are sinners. But when we SEE HIS FACE ... then we will be changed so that we will no longer be corrupt sinners ... but we will be changed to be sinless and fit for heaven.

Quote:

"Sanctification is a lifelong process. Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

[Sulla]

I think its interesting to read over this quote more closely.

Quote:

But while the followers of Christ have sinned,(Past Tense) they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. (You cant be living in known sin have christ as your master - Reference 1) They have repented of their sins (True repentance means they ceased from that sin - Reference 2)and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." (If this was at the last judgement it would mean this was the condition of those going to heaven. But if you read this quote in context you will see thats not the case.- Reference 3) {PK 589.1}

Reference 01

"Know ye not that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Very many who profess to be servants of Christ are none of his. They are deceiving their souls to their own destruction. While they profess to be servants of Christ, they are not living in obedience to his will;{RH, May 5, 1885 par. 10}

Reference 2

Repentance includes sorrow for sin, and a turning away from it. We shall not renounce sin unless we see its sinfulness; until we turn away from it in heart, there will be no real change in the life. {FLB 127.3}

Reference 3

Chap. 47 - Joshua and the Angel

The steady advancement made by the builders of the temple greatly discomfited and alarmed the hosts of evil. Satan determined to put forth still further effort to weaken and discourage God's people by holding before them their imperfections of character. If those who had long suffered because of transgression could again be induced to disregard God's commandments, they would be brought once more under the bondage of sin. {PK 582.1}..............

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. ...................

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." {PK 589.1}

The assaults of Satan are strong, his delusions are subtle; but the Lord's eye is upon His people. Their affliction is great, the flames of the furnace seem about to consume them; but Jesus will bring them forth as gold tried in the fire. Their earthliness will be removed, that through them the image of Christ may be perfectly revealed.

590

{PK 589.2}

[Sulla]

Quote:

The key to who will be saved ... is not their sins ... but did they repent of them. Richard Nies says that "No one will be lost because they sin ... they will be lost because they refuse pardon."

Ellen White says...

Let none deceive themselves with the belief that God will pardon and bless them while they are trampling upon one of His requirements. The willful commission of a known sin silences the witnessing voice of the Spirit, and separates the soul from God. Whatever may be the ecstasies of religious feeling, Jesus cannot abide in the heart that disregards the divine law. God will honor those only who honor Him. {LHU 144.3}

I think I will go with Ellen White.

[Woody]

For this situation ... I agree with Ellen White also.

So would Richard Nies ...

I think both are right.

[Sulla]

Then please do something for me:) Can you please explain clearly what YOU think both are saying.

[Sulla]

Just looked up and read The Security of Salvation

by Richard Nies. Link and I have to say its amazing. But not in a good way.

He says " "Oh," but you say, "certainly it is a beautiful picture of the love of God, but how does it relate to our security?" Here is the point; Salvation was an issue with God that He secured completely apart from any human activity. It was guaranteed by God for God's sake before we ever came on the scene of action. While it involves us, it is much deeper than that. It was part of God's self-revelation and vindication before the universe. Thus salvation stands independent of anything we do in response to it - it is established in the nature of God.

But you insist, "What is so significant about that?" Namely that our deeds - good deeds, misdeeds - are not directly related to salvation. Let me say it more strongly. We are not given salvation because of our good deeds, nor are we deprived of it because of our misdeeds. Here is the root of the problem of security. Most will agree that we do not gain salvation by our good deeds, but few of us will affirm that our misdeeds will not deprive us of it. But one is just as true ass the other."

Ellen White says..

When Christ shall come again to earth it will not be to purify and refine the characters of men, and to fit them for Heaven. His work then will only be to change their corruptible bodies and fashion them like unto Christ's most glorious body. Only a

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symmetrical and perfect character will in that day entitle men to the finishing touch of immortality. {3SP 40.2}

God is testing and proving every soul in this probationary time, that it may be made manifest whether or not his attributes of character are formed within. {MM, November 1, 1894 par. 3}

In like manner we have fixed our minds upon the exceeding great and precious reward; and, in order to obtain it, we must have a perfect character. The angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth; and we are to obtain a fitness here to join the society of sinless angels. Do you expect that when Christ comes he will give you that fitness? Not at all. You must be found of him without spot, without blemish, or wrinkle, or anything like it. Now is the watching and trying time. Now it is the time to obtain a preparation to abide the day of his coming, and to stand when he appeareth. Do you say that you cannot do it because around you are so much sin and iniquity and corruption? I refer you to Enoch. He lived just previous to the world's being washed from its moral pollution, by a flood. He was on the earth at the time when corruption was teeming on every hand; and yet he bore the impress of the divine. He walked with God three hundred years; and he was not, for God took him, that is, translated him to Heaven. The flaming chariots of God were sent for this holy man, and he was borne to Heaven. Enoch had the witness that he pleased God. And this witness we can have. {RH, April 19, 1870 par. 10}

[Bravus]

OK, I'm happy to discuss this, but really, I believe it's very simple, and that in fact those who believe they are in disagreement are almost always in agreement but using the same words to talk about different things. I'll try to lay out my understanding below, as simply as possible, and you can see whether you agree or not.

(Incidentally, I am disturbed by some of the comments above, because to me they suggest that our own actions have the power to curb God's power to save. No, His power is infinite, by definition. He chooses who to save, based on the merits of His son, not on any merits of ours.)

OK, here it is:

1. We are all sinners - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

2. None of us has the power to save ourselves.

3. None of our actions have any power to save us - even our good actions are marred by self-interest.

4. We are saved wholly, solely and entirely because God ascribes Jesus' salvation to us. This is a legal contract founded in grace and mercy.

5. Jesus' sacrifice is 100% effective to offer salvation to every person on earth who chooses to accept it. Nothing more is required for salvation. it is heresy to claim that more is required.

6. We must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for his salvation to be ascribed to us.

OK, big pause, big breath, big think, prayer of praise - because a huge amount of the confusion on this topic arises through not taking an appropriate pause at this point. But the 6 points above are the heart of the gospel, and the parts on which all Christians agree.

7. Once we receive salvation, we are new people with a new desire to live the abundant lives God has planned for us.

8. Those abundant lives arise from the assurance of our salvation, which is absolute, and from obedience to the laws God has set in place for our benefit.

9. The greatest commandment is to love God and love others - all else is derived from that.

10. That great commandment has been 'unpacked' as the Ten Commandments and throughout the whole Bible in some detail.

11. God does not require evidence for our salvation, beyond our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice. That sacrifice completely fulfills the demands of the law and makes us free.

12. God desires us to keep His laws because He understands that they are the recipe for the abundant life, and because He loves us and wants us to enjoy that life.

13. Our works also constitute evidence of our salvation for those around us - the fruits of the spirit - and are the most eloquent testimony for bringing the joy of salvation to others.

In reading this set of 13 statements, I hope you will read the whole set and try to understand the logic, rather than try to pick it apart line by line: some of the statements, taken out of context, will be too extreme and incorrect. The full set of statements is needed to provide a balanced perspective.

[Sulla]

Quote:

(Incidentally, I am disturbed by some of the comments above, because to me they suggest that our own actions have the power to curb God's power to save. No, His power is infinite, by definition. He chooses who to save, based on the merits of His son, not on any merits of ours.)

Look at it this way. Our actions show if we can be trusted in heaven. This power to overcome is given to us by God. Then we have a probionary in this life time to show we are fit for heaven. But make no mistake overcoming does not give us a right for heaven. Its only Christ that does that.

Many are deceiving themselves by thinking that the character will be transformed at the coming of Christ, but there will be no conversion of heart at His appearing. Our defects of character must here be repented of, and through the grace of Christ we must overcome them while probation shall last. This is the place for fitting up for the family above. {AH 319.2}

--

The righteousness by which we are justified is imputed; the righteousness by which we are sanctified is imparted. The first is our title to heaven, the second is our fitness for heaven. {FLB 116.2}

Many commit the error of trying to define minutely the fine points of distinction between justification and sanctification. Into the definitions of these two terms they often bring their own ideas and speculations. Why try to be more minute than is Inspiration on the vital question of righteousness by faith? {FLB 116.3}

As the penitent sinner, contrite before God, discerns Christ's atonement in his behalf, and accepts this atonement as his only hope in this life and the future life, his sins are pardoned. This is justification by faith. {FLB 116.4}

Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. {FLB 116.5}

It {sanctification} is not merely a theory, an emotion, or a form of words, but a living, active principle, entering into the everyday life. It requires that our habits of eating, drinking, and dressing be such as to secure the preservation of physical, mental, and moral health, that we may present to the Lord our bodies--not an offering corrupted by wrong habits but--"a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God." {FLB 116.6}

The Scriptures are the great agency in the transformation of character. . . . If studied and obeyed, the Word of God works in the heart, subduing every unholy attribute. {FLB 116.7}

There is no such thing as instantaneous sanctification. True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last.

[Sulla]

Quote:

OK, here it is:

1. We are all sinners - all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

2. None of us has the power to save ourselves.

3. None of our actions have any power to save us - even our good actions are marred by self-interest.

4. We are saved wholly, solely and entirely because God ascribes Jesus' salvation to us. This is a legal contract founded in grace and mercy.

5. Jesus' sacrifice is 100% effective to offer salvation to every person on earth who chooses to accept it. Nothing more is required for salvation. it is heresy to claim that more is required.

6. We must accept Jesus' sacrifice in order for his salvation to be ascribed to us.

OK, big pause, big breath, big think, prayer of praise - because a huge amount of the confusion on this topic arises through not taking an appropriate pause at this point. But the 6 points above are the heart of the gospel, and the parts on which all Christians agree.

7. Once we receive salvation, we are new people with a new desire to live the abundant lives God has planned for us.

8. Those abundant lives arise from the assurance of our salvation, which is absolute, and from obedience to the laws God has set in place for our benefit.

9. The greatest commandment is to love God and love others - all else is derived from that.

10. That great commandment has been 'unpacked' as the Ten Commandments and throughout the whole Bible in some detail.

11. God does not require evidence for our salvation, beyond our acceptance of Jesus' sacrifice. That sacrifice completely fulfills the demands of the law and makes us free.

12. God desires us to keep His laws because He understands that they are the recipe for the abundant life, and because He loves us and wants us to enjoy that life.

13. Our works also constitute evidence of our salvation for those around us - the fruits of the spirit - and are the most eloquent testimony for bringing the joy of salvation to others.

In reading this set of 13 statements, I hope you will read the whole set and try to understand the logic, rather than try to pick it apart line by line: some of the statements, taken out of context, will be too extreme and incorrect. The full set of statements is needed to provide a balanced perspective.

Then how does this fit with Ellen White saying we are tested. The below statement means it is conditional.

We should never forget that we are placed on trial in this world, to determine our fitness for the future life. None can enter heaven whose characters are defiled by the foul blot of selfishness. Therefore, God tests us here, by committing to us temporal possessions, that our use of these may show whether we can be entrusted with eternal riches.--R. & H., May 16, 1893. {CS 22.1}

[Bravus]

That statement is heresy.

Pretty simple, huh?

[Sulla]

So by that I asume you are either not Adventist or a very liberal one. That ok but it would be nice to be upfront on things.

Now I wonder how it can be heresy if it agrees directly with the Bible. For clearly the Bible says by our works its is known whos side we are on.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

and

James

2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?

2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Woody]

That statement is heresy.

Pretty simple, huh?

[Woody]

Quote:

"The only way in which he can attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith he can bring to God the merits of Christ, and the Lord places the obedience of His Son to the sinner's account. Christ's righteousness is accepted in place of man's failure, and God receives, pardons, justifies, the repentant, believing soul, treats him as though he were righteous, and loves him as He loves His Son. This is how faith is accounted righteousness" 1 SM 367

[Bravus]

Yep, Woody, I agree with all those quotes. I'm not saying Ellen White is heretical all the time, but the quote that Sulla brought directly contradicts those three quotes you brought.

Sulla, the Bible texts you quote fit with my framework, which is that the fruits we show are a witness, a testimony and an evidence to others that we have been saved, but that they are not the *cause* of our salvation: Jesus' righteous sacrifice is the *only* cause.

[Sulla]

Bravus to you mind telling me if you are Adventist or not since this is an SDA forum? It would help my understanding of where you are coming from.

Also her statements are not contradicting each other. The problem is you have a flawed understanding of justification and sanctification.

[Sulla]

Redwood thanks very much for the quotes:)

[Bravus]

I am Seventh-day Adventist by birth and by experience, and in terms of my beliefs, although I currently attend a Baptist church, not on doctrinal grounds but because all the SDA churches around here are pretty dire.

I understand justification and sanctification perfectly. Justification is all Christ's work, and is 100% sufficient for salvation. We have no part in it but accepting Jesus's sacrifice.

Sanctification is all Christ's work too, and involves our choice to allow Him into our lives to enable us to will and to do what is good rather than what is evil.

But our works can have no contribution to our salvation at all, since even our best works are as filthy rags. Any claim that we contribute to our own salvation through our works is plain wrong in Christian theology.

I read the first EGW quote you provided as saying that we cannot be saved unless we pass a certain test based on our actions, rather than on our acceptance of Christ. I may have misunderstood, and am happy to be corrected if that's the case, but I understood you to be using the quote to say the same thing: our own actions and sinlessness are the standard of salvation. And that is heresy.

It is not a complicated thing it is a very simple thing:

justification causes sanctification

santification can never cause justification

[Sulla]

Also redwood if you take your first quote in contest it sheds a lot more light on it. Your quote only telling part of the story was misleading.

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized. {SC 62.1}

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do

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according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience. {SC 62.3}

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us. {SC 63.1}

When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who

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walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1. {SC 63.2}

[Sulla]

Quote:

I am Seventh-day Adventist by birth and by experience, and in terms of my beliefs, although I currently attend a Baptist church, not on doctrinal grounds but because all the SDA churches around here are pretty dire.

Ahh ok

Quote:

I understand justification and sanctification perfectly. Justification is all Christ's work, and is 100% sufficient for salvation. We have no part in it but accepting Jesus's sacrifice.

Sanctification is all Christ's work too, and involves our choice to allow Him into our lives to enable us to will and to do what is good rather than what is evil.

But our works can have no contribution to our salvation at all, since even our best works are as filthy rags. Any claim that we contribute to our own salvation through our works is plain wrong in Christian theology.

I read the first EGW quote you provided as saying that we cannot be saved unless we pass a certain test based on our actions, rather than on our acceptance of Christ. I may have misunderstood, and am happy to be corrected if that's the case, but I understood you to be using the quote to say the same thing: our own actions and sinlessness are the standard of salvation. And that is heresy.

No not at all. Our live of overcoming is because of our choice to surrender to God daily. Everything from the desire to repent to the ability to overcome is a gift from God. But its one we choose to take or reject.

But really the test is the bigger picture. Its not about do we give all to God for one day. But can we be trusted in heaven. If we cant surrender to God and let him form correct characters in us here during our probation we would not in heaven either.

Quote:

It is not a complicated thing it is a very simple thing:

justification causes sanctification

santification can never cause justification

But what is sanctification and how is it worked out in our life. Thats the question. Where we might differ is this. I believe after we accept God and get a new heart its done in this life time our probationary time. (see below). If you say that heresy then we will have do just agree to disagree.

When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our character, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy, will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects, and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. . . . {CH 43.4}

[nuff sed]

Quoted by Bravus:I am Seventh-day Adventist by birth and by experience, and in terms of my beliefs, although I currently attend a Baptist church, not on doctrinal grounds but because all the SDA churches around here are pretty dire.

Do I get the idea then that you view churches more as social clubs and attend the one that your lifestyle seems to fit and makes you feel comfortable? Just curious.

[John317]

Am I right that Bravus views sin more as "nature" and Sulla views sin as primarily "choice"?

The question of what is sin lies at the crux of the issue and how a person answers that question accounts for the differences in views here.

Take a look at these quotations and tell me if you believe they are heresy. If they seem like heresy to you, it is almost certain to be because you've accepted the New Theology definition of sin that it is primarily about "nature" rather than about "choice."--

Quote:

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. The Review and Herald, August 28, 1894, paragraph 4

Quote:

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 427, paragraph 1

Quote:

Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 671, paragraph 3

Quote:

The honor of Christ must stand complete in the perfection of the character of his chosen people. He desires that they shall represent his character to the world. Mrs. E. G. White.

The Signs of the Times , November 25, 1897, paragraph 11-

[Woody]

Quote:

But really the test is the bigger picture. Its not about do we give all to God for one day. But can we be trusted in heaven. If we cant surrender to God and let him form correct characters in us here during our probation we would not in heaven either.

I think that this is where we differ. My smaller picture and bigger picture ... is ALL about Jesus. It is not about me. I am nothing. Can I be trusted in heaven? NO. I am going to heaven on the basis of loving and accepting Jesus as my Saviour. When I See His Face ... I will be 'fit' for heaven. But not before.

We can toss Ellen White quotes back and forth till the cows come home. There are plenty on both sides. The same with the Bible. But unless you have the right glasses on ... you will continue to see either Grace or Works as the requirement for Salvation.

Personally ... I don't think it really matters to your salvation. Once you and I get to heaven ... God will straighten it all out. IOWs ... I think that both conservatives and liberals ... legalists and grace centered Christians will make it to heaven. There will be some of each. It is just harder for the legalists to do so. But with God ... all things are possible.

This exercise just shows me that knowledge and splitting all these hairs .... is just plain over rated.

[Woody]

Quote:

"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

Quote:

1 John 3:1+2 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."