Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Robert]

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ.

[Woody]

No one is saying that we are not to abide by the commandments of God. We are saying that our obedience does not save us. We obey because we are saved. This is an imporant point and one that is clearly given if you read the entire book of Steps to Christ.

[Robert]

We cannot help that we are born with a fallen nature. But we can choose Christ, and we can choose not to commit sin. That is the issue.

[John317]

[Robert]

We obey because we are saved.

This can be taken two ways:

1] The proof that we are saved is because we keep the commandments. Failure to keep the law means one is not saved.

2] Because we have the assurance of salvation "in Christ", this allows us to grow in grace and come into harmony with the principle of God's law, which is "love your neighbor as yourself"

Which one do you mean?

Rob

[John317]

No one is saying that we are not to abide by the commandments of God. We are saying that our obedience does not save us. We obey because we are saved. This is an imporant point and one that is clearly given if you read the entire book of Steps to Christ.

You have not read Robert's posts much, then, because he says plainly that we cannot abide by or obey the commandments of God.

There are only two ways of avoiding this: either reject that we can obey them or say that it doesn't matter if we do or not. Another way, for Adventists, is to say we don't accept what our prophet teaches on the subject. They will even go so far now as to say that Ellen White taught heresy and false doctrine. All because her words don't line up with their thinking.

[Woody]

Quote:

There are many who do the same with the Scriptures.

Yes. I have seen the evidence of this.

[Robert]

It is become increasingly clear that the only way for some is to reject the Spirit of Prophecy, the same source of authority they use when it supports their favorite idea.

babble....Try again!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

We obey because we are saved.

This can be taken two ways:

1] The proof that we are saved is because we keep the commandments. Failure to keep the law means one is not saved.

2] Because we have the assurance of salvation "in Christ", this allows us to grow in grace and come into harmony with the principle of God's law, which is "love your neighbor as yourself"

Which one do you mean?

Rob

We see the legalists hold to number one.

The rest of us hold to number two.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

No one is saying that we are not to abide by the commandments of God. We are saying that our obedience does not save us. We obey because we are saved. This is an imporant point and one that is clearly given if you read the entire book of Steps to Christ.

You have not read Robert's posts much, then, because he says plainly that we cannot abide by or obey the commandments of God.

There are only two ways of avoiding this: either reject that we can obey them or say that it doesn't matter if we do or not. Another way, for Adventists, is to say we don't accept what our prophet teaches on the subject. They will even go so far now as to say that Ellen White taught heresy and false doctrine. All because her words don't line up with their thinking.

This is rather narrow thinking.

They are doing as EGW told us to do and that is to compare her to scripture. When she doesn't line up to scripture ... some will reject what she says.

[Robert]

You have not read Robert's posts much, then, because he says plainly that we cannot abide by or obey the commandments of God.

[John317]

No one is saying that we are not to abide by the commandments of God. We are saying that our obedience does not save us.

No one has said that our obedience saves us. Here is the way Ellen White states it:

SC--

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

Quote:

We obey because we are saved. This is an imporant point and one that is clearly given if you read the entire book of Steps to Christ.

Ellen White never says "we obey because we are saved." Obedience is the fruit of faith. We are being saved. The fruit of that process of being saved is obedience to God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai. This is what the book Steps To Christ teaches in the above paragraph.

[Woody]

Ellen White gives us a lot of unnecessary additions to the Bible. For instance ... since the Bible does not mention that heaven is a seven days journey ... why is it important enough to send a messenger with that message to us? Just one of many questions that I have to ask of God.

[Woody]

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We are being saved.

Herein lies the problem. Christ saved you on the cross ... and some are still working and working trying to become saved. And we know what that means.

[John317]

Quote:

We are being saved.

Herein lies the problem. Christ saved you on the cross ... and some are still working and working trying to become saved. And we know what that means.

Study the Bible and Ellen White on that subject.

Those who accept Christ, and in their first confidence say, I am saved, are in danger of trusting to themselves. They lose sight of their own weakness and their constant need of divine strength. They are unprepared for Satan's devices, and under temptation many, like Peter, fall into the very depths of sin. We are admonished, "Let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall." 1 Corinthians 10:12. Our only safety is in constant distrust of self, and dependence on Christ.Christ's Object Lessons (1900), page 155, paragraph 2

Some people have a false sense of what it means to be "saved." We are saved FROM sin, not saved IN sin. If anyone believes they are "saved" while committing willful, knowing, deliberate, intentional sin, and are practicing the same, they are not saved no matter how many times they say they are. Quite the opposite. See 1 John 3: 1-10.

[Sulla]

Robert

Quote:

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

The point is even if some one knows the theory has been tested and knows its wrong they can and do still choose to sin. So what I am saying is this. God gives us as a gift a new character here. And if we choose to say not to it and choose sin we would do the same at the secound coming.

[Sulla]

PK

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Another thing about the thief that I like to believe is, that his heart was in the right place but he was always in the wrong place and making the wrong choses. But when the time came for him to make the right chose that day on the cross he did. He stood up for Jesus in front of all those people around the cross that day. And Jesus stood up for him before his father just like he said he would.

If our heart is really with God we will make the right choices. As for his past life if he new what was right and wrong we dont really know. Did he have good parents that told him about God or no parents at all. Really anything about his past is just a guese.

[Sulla]

Robert

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So the man sinning under law stands condemned, but the man sinning under grace does not stand condemned.

No Robert God came to save us from sin not in sin. He does have the power to work in us here a full change if we will let him.

[Sulla]

Neil D

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In addendum to the discussion of Sulla and Bravus, the bible indicates that thru daily justification [that is, acceptance of Christ's death for the individual], man is allowed entrance into heaven. Many [but not all] Adventists advocate, thru EGW, that one must show evidence of one's repentance before entrance thru heaven. Their emphasis of behavior, rather than nature, is what excludes one from heaven. My emphasis, and I think Bravus' also [correct my misunderstanding, Bravus], indicate that acceptance of what Christ has done for mankind [to the exclusion of the arguements that both nature and behavior are implicated in the exclusion] into heaven. [Contrast this to the Adventist understanding of just behavior.]

Nope sorry thats not what I was saying. Or not in that way. Let me say it again. If you dont think we get a new character now then you think we get it when Christ returns. So you do think we will accept a new character in the future. I just think we will accept it now. Its never our own works that exclude us from heaven or fit us for heaven.

[CAD]

"But faith is in no sense allied to presumption. Only he who has true faith is secure against presumption. For presumption is Satans's counterfiet of faith. Faith claims God's promises, and brings forth fruit in obedience. Presumption also claims the promises, but uses them as Satan did, to excuse transgression. Faith would have led our first parents to trust the love of God, and to obey His commands. Presumption led them to trangress His law, believing that His great love would save them from the consequence of their sin. It is not faith that claims the favor of Heaven without complying with the conditions on which mercy is to be granted. Genuine faith has its foundation in the promises and provisions of the Scriptures." The Desire of Ages,----The Victory. p. 124.

I was raised by antilegalists. It was not easy growing up with no law and having to submit to the kind of grace my parents made up. It is very interesting to me to see just how the neurotics/narcissists views are on sanctification. When I started reading books by Ellen White I cried and cried as my life would have been so much easier just to know how to stay close to Christ. The law to me is the law of liberty that forms me into his LOVE. He took the time to make me so that I could accept his pardoning Grace-----notice I said His pardoning grace not someone else's. My sin did not keep me lost and away as I all ready knew I was in HIS love. My sin kept me lost as I didn't understand who I was in Christ. My very own will was trying to keep in a fake form of Love that truly did not exist. I wasn't happy sinning and I certainly had a very hard time staying close to Christ. He didn't give up on me though. He taught me what I needed to know and will still learn. At this very moment I am perfect in Him. If I take my eyes off Him----yes I will be looking for ways to find His love again. I cannot make up who I am in HIm. He needs to know that I love Him so. What more Jesus can I do?

A narcissist will continually preach sermons about giving up self. A neurotic has all ready given up so much of self they can't even work for God.

The legalists of old would be so cruel as to expect one to live up to what they expected. Not what God wanted.

The legalists of new are the most cruelest of all. You had better live up to their form of grace or they will reject you. Yet at the same time they need unconditional agape love.

If we all knew we are loved by God and that relationships have conditions where would we be. Right here.

[Sulla]

bygjymbo

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If you believe that you can never be sin-free, your actions and decisions are based on that assumption. IMHO it IS impossible for you to be sin-free. You've absolved yourself from any responsibility. You've rendered God powerless over sin in your life. Is that faith?? What was James saying in chapter 2??

I agree. They basicly believe God does not have the power to help you over come sin. That the power of God is made mute by the sinful tendency of fallen man.

[Robert]

We are saved FROM sin, not saved IN sin.

No, we were not saved from sin. All men die because we received death from one man, Adam. If it wasn't for Christ our 1st death would be our 2nd death. Christ took the curse of the law (see Gal 3:10 etc). He was born "under the law" so He could redeem those "under law". (see Gal 4:4)

Yes, we grow, but we are not free from sin. How so? Are there self-seeking and self-love in your life? If so then you have had it under law.

[Robert]

Robert

Quote:

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

The point is even if some one knows the theory has been tested and knows its wrong they can and do still choose to sin.

The Bible doesn't say this. Sin, iniquity, will not arise a second time! Keep it simple!

[Sulla]

Redwood.

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Thanks for all your good responses to us Sulla. It is appreciated. I don't happen to agree with them. But do appreciate the spirit in which they are given. I will address a few comments back to you.

Your welcome. I think its easer to have a friendly talk on these things if you understand its not your job to change the mind of the other person. Just present your evidence.

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If we are sinning on this earth .... how are we going to be safe to be in heaven? I know of no one who has stopped sinning when they died. Under this definition ... I won't be in heaven. I am not safe to be in heaven ... unless when I See His Face I am changed and no longer a corrupt sinner. Because at this moment .... I am corrupt with sin.

Well it depends on how you are using sin etc. Example Ellen White makes plane...

- Past sins are covered.

- Sins of unwillful ignorance are covered.

- Known willful sins are NOT covered.

If you are living daily in known willful sin that is your direct evidence that you have not given 100% of your heart to God.

Now does this mean YOU have to in your own power overcome sin. No it mean you have to surrender your heart 100% to God. To choose hour by hour - day by day for him to help you over come. So I would say please accept his gift.

And of course the warning on the other side is we will never feel sinless. We just should not be able to bring exact known sins to mind. If we do we need to let God do his work and repent of them right then.

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Praise God ... HE knows my heart. He knows that I accept His life and His sacrifice. His blood. That is what saves me. My sinning or not sinning ... has nothing to do with my salvation praise God. It is all about HIS not sinning and His blood. That is what saves me. For "I" am not worthy. Only HE is worthy. I am not safe to save. But that is why I can come to Him and He is able to save me.

Your continuing to live in known sin is your direct evidence you have NOT given 100% to God.

[Robert]

Robert

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So the man sinning under law stands condemned, but the man sinning under grace does not stand condemned.

No Robert God came to save us from sin not in sin.

Then why are you not perfect as God is perfect? Why are you sinning? Why is there self-seeking in your life. After all EGW said:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."