Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Robert]

But not having a bent to self does not mean you will not sin. Satan, Adam, Eve and untold numbers of angles all sinned while they were perfect. So the question is the how does God know we will not sin like them?

When did Satan become "imperfect" [unrighteous]?

Ez 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was perfect - He was in the image of God - he was selfless, until "iniquity" was found in him.

Now of course no one knows how a sinless being could give birth to iniquity, but we know it began in the mind of Lucifer.

As to Eve she was deceived. And Adam, his agape was misplaced, which if you think about it also hints at deception. The angels were also deceived.

Rob

[Sulla]

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OK, Sulla, you have made your position clearer.

Good thats what I was shooting for:)

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But there still seems to be the strong presumption that if we have not allowed God to completely give us a new character then we will be denied heaven. How is that different from our works contributing to our salvation.

Again we both believe God is going to give us a new character. I believe he will give us that GIFT now you believe he will when he comes. Neither are works based.

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Let me address it another way. We've talked about justification and sanctification, but not yet glorification. The claim you are making is that glorification is *purely* a physical change - restoration of our bodies to their potential for immortality - with no spiritual component.

What do the relevant (Biblical, not EGW) texts say about this? I suspect the transformation is more dramatic than simply a physical upgrade.

No to be more exact I am saying the part where we get new characters he gives us now. The part where he gives us new bodies he does when he comes. But he gives us both.

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What do the relevant (Biblical, not EGW) texts say about this? I suspect the transformation is more dramatic than simply a physical upgrade.

Do you have a quote in mind. Here is one.

15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

[Sulla]

Quote:

When did Satan become "imperfect" [unrighteous]?

Ez 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Lucifer was perfect - He was in the image of God - he was selfless, until "iniquity" was found in him.

Now of course no one knows how a sinless being could give birth to iniquity, but we know it began in the mind of Lucifer.

As to Eve she was deceived. And Adam, his agape was misplaced, which if you think about it also hints at deception. The angels were also deceived.

Rob

Just backs up my point. Satan was without sin. And it came from no where this is a mystery we dont have an explanation for it. But whats clear is that even without some one tempting him it happened. So how can God know the same will not happen in us?

[Bravus]

If I could manage just one day of being a perfect husband, that'd be a start.

[Robert]

So how can God know the same will not happen in us?

As I said, "iniquity" began in the mind of Lucifer. He saw God's agape love as too restrictive. Instead of a love that lived to serve he insisted that the greatest and most satisfying love was the love of self.

Up until that moment no one has ever heard of this principle. "Self-love", said Lucifer, "was the key to true happiness." Hence Lucifer's brand of love looked wonderful, it sounded good, but it was a theory untested.

For 6000 years (or more) Lucifer's brand of "self" has had its way in this world dominated by self-love. What has been the result?

That's why it will never happen again.

Rob

[Sulla]

Quote:

As I said, "iniquity" began in the mind of Lucifer. He saw God's agape love as too restrictive. Instead of a love that lived to serve he insisted that the greatest and most satisfying love was the love of self.

Up until that moment no one has ever heard of this principle. "Self-love", said Lucifer, "was the key to true happiness." Hence Lucifer's brand of love looked wonderful, it sounded good, but it was a theory untested.

For 6000 years (or more) Lucifer's brand of "self" has had its way in this world dominated by self-love. What has been the result?

That's why it will never happen again.

Rob

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

[Neil D]

Quote:

As I said, "iniquity" began in the mind of Lucifer. He saw God's agape love as too restrictive. Instead of a love that lived to serve he insisted that the greatest and most satisfying love was the love of self.

Up until that moment no one has ever heard of this principle. "Self-love", said Lucifer, "was the key to true happiness." Hence Lucifer's brand of love looked wonderful, it sounded good, but it was a theory untested.

For 6000 years (or more) Lucifer's brand of "self" has had its way in this world dominated by self-love. What has been the result?

That's why it will never happen again.

Rob

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

There is no exception....Satan knew it was wrong all along...And self love does not repent, can not repent and will not repent. That is why when we accept Christ, and are justified, in our fallen state, we are given the task of learning Agape love. That involves us learning from God, His values, His rules and incorporating them into ourselves and replacing the self love concept. Our assurance [Jesus loves us] causes us to respond differently to various situations....but because our assurance [Jesus dying for and loving us] is our promise of heaven, our behavior is not. Again, our behavior is not what gets us into heaven. Our good/reformed behavior is not sanctification. Sanctification is the result of daily justification.

[Sulla]

Originally Posted By: Sulla

Quote:

As I said, "iniquity" began in the mind of Lucifer. He saw God's agape love as too restrictive. Instead of a love that lived to serve he insisted that the greatest and most satisfying love was the love of self.

Up until that moment no one has ever heard of this principle. "Self-love", said Lucifer, "was the key to true happiness." Hence Lucifer's brand of love looked wonderful, it sounded good, but it was a theory untested.

For 6000 years (or more) Lucifer's brand of "self" has had its way in this world dominated by self-love. What has been the result?

That's why it will never happen again.

Rob

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

There is no exception....Satan knew it was wrong all along...And self love does not repent, can not repent and will not repent. That is why when we accept Christ, and are justified, in our fallen state, we are given the task of learning Agape love. That involves us learning from God, His values, His rules and incorporating them into ourselves and replacing the self love concept. Our assurance [Jesus loves us] causes us to respond differently to various situations....but because our assurance [Jesus dying for and loving us] is our promise of heaven, our behavior is not. Again, our behavior is not what gets us into heaven. Our good/reformed behavior is not sanctification. Sanctification is the result of daily justification.

Chap. 2 - The Standard of True Sanctification

Review and Herald article, published March 8, 1881.

"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:23). {FW 29.1}

Sanctification is obtained only in obedience to the will of God. Many who are willfully trampling upon the law of Jehovah claim holiness of heart and sanctification of life. But they have not a saving knowledge of God or of His law. They are standing in the ranks of the great rebel. He is at war with the law of God, which is the foundation of the divine government in heaven and in the earth. These men are doing the same work as their master has done in seeking to make of none effect God's holy law. No commandment-breaker can be permitted to enter heaven; for he who was once a pure and exalted covering cherub was thrust out for rebelling against the government of God. {FW 29.2}

With many, sanctification is only self-righteousness. And yet these persons boldly claim Jesus as their Saviour and Sanctifier. What a delusion! Will the Son of God sanctify the transgressor of the Father's law--that law which Christ came to exalt and make honorable? He testifies, "I have kept My Father's commandments." God will not bring His law down to meet the imperfect standard of man; and man cannot meet the demands of that holy law without exercising repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

30

{FW 29.3}

"If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 John 2:1). But God has not given His Son to a life of suffering and ignominy and a shameful death to release man from obedience to the divine law. So great is the deceptive power of Satan that many have been led to regard the atonement of Christ as of no real value. Christ died because there was no other hope for the transgressor. He might try to keep God's law in the future; but the debt which he had incurred in the past remained, and the law must condemn him to death. Christ came to pay that debt for the sinner which it was impossible for him to pay for himself. Thus, through the atoning sacrifice of Christ, sinful man was granted another trial. {FW 30.1}

[Bravus]

Again, that last seems to say Jesus died only for our past sins, but we have to be accountable for our present sins ourselves in a trial. That is earned salvation which is partly based on our merits. And that is heresy.

If your claim, Sulla, is as it seems to be that all of Ellen White's writings are consistent and of a piece, and if, as you also say, this is what she teaches, then all her writings as a whole must be rejected if the gospel is to be saved at all. That's how you've set it up, and that's how it falls.

[Sulla]

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Again, that last seems to say Jesus died only for our past sins, but we have to be accountable for our present sins ourselves in a trial. That is earned salvation which is partly based on our merits. And that is heresy.

He died for both. But we really have not given our heart to God 100% if we still continue in sin.

Romans

6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

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If your claim, Sulla, is as it seems to be that all of Ellen White's writings are consistent and of a piece, and if, as you also say, this is what she teaches, then all her writings as a whole must be rejected if the gospel is to be saved at all. That's how you've set it up, and that's how it falls.

Well lets be more exact. I think your understanding of both the gospel and of her writings is incorrect. So your views have to fall:)

[Bravus]

I've stated it as clearly as I can, near the beginning of the thread, but one more time as I bow out:

Once we are saved we are new creatures, old things have passed away, and through abiding in Christ our minds and our characters are transformed so that sin loses any attraction for us and living like Christ is our goal and pattern of life.

Nonetheless, our own righteousness at all times remains corrupt and as filthy rags, and contributes *zero* to our salvation. Jesus' blood is all that is necessary and all that is relevant for our salvation.

Any claim that our salvation depends on our own merits is heresy in Christian theology.

I'm done.

[Sulla]

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I've stated it as clearly as I can, near the beginning of the thread, but one more time as I bow out:

Once we are saved we are new creatures, old things have passed away, and through abiding in Christ our minds and our characters are transformed so that sin loses any attraction for us and living like Christ is our goal and pattern of life.

Nonetheless, our own righteousness at all times remains corrupt and as filthy rags, and contributes *zero* to our salvation. Jesus' blood is all that is necessary and all that is relevant for our salvation.

Any claim that our salvation depends on our own merits is heresy in Christian theology.

I'm done.

Not sure if I can say this any more clearly. Our own merits mean nothing. Our difference is I think God gives us a new character now you think he gives it to us when he comes.

[Neil D]

I say again, that sanctification comes thru incorporating the values of God into one's self. The bible backs this up with the following texts.

1 Peter 1:1-2

To God's elect, ..., who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

John 17:17

Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.

John 17:19

19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.

And what is "the belief in the truth"? That Jesus came to die for sinners, among whom, I am chief.

If EGW insists that sanctification is some sort of behavior that allows us to enter heaven, I also submit to you, that this is heresy.

[Bravus]

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Not sure if I can say this any more clearly. Our own merits mean nothing. Our difference is I think God gives us a new character now you think he gives it to us when he comes.

If it ended there we'd be fine. But you add to that "and if he doesn't give it to us now, we can't be saved". That's where the problem lies.

[Bravus]

By the way, everyone, please note very carefully the highlighted 'if' statements in this post of mine:

Quote:

If your claim, Sulla, is as it seems to be that all of Ellen White's writings are consistent and of a piece, and if, as you also say, this is what she teaches, then all her writings as a whole must be rejected if the gospel is to be saved at all. That's how you've set it up, and that's how it falls.

What I am saying is that, if we accept Sulla's claim that all of Ellen White's writings must be judged as one single corpus, and all of that corpus must be understood as teaching sinless perfection as the requirement for salvation, there would be no choice for a Christian but to reject Ellen White's writings.

But I reject Sulla's claim, so therefore I am most emphatically not saying "I reject Ellen White's writings". I am not logically forced to do so.

Rather, I am taking the much more reasonable (IMO) position that she was someone who learned and grew and changed over the long period she was writing, so that some parts display a broader and clearer image than others. There is pretty uncontroversial evidence that she changed her position on a number of issues.

The test of infallibility is a very high one, and one that makes anything or anyone for whom it is claimed very vulnerable, since a single instance of fallibility brings down the whole edifice. I'm making more of a logical point than a theological one.

[Sulla]

Quote:

If it ended there we'd be fine. But you add to that "and if he doesn't give it to us now, we can't be saved". That's where the problem lies.

Yes that is a problem because I am not saying we are not. In the same way as when Jesus comes he says here is your new character and body and we say not thanks dont want the new character. Its us turning down a gift.

[LifeHiscost]

If EGW insists that sanctification is some sort of behavior that allows us to enter heaven, I also submit to you, that this is heresy.

My understanding of sanctification is to be set aside for a holy purpose. Would you have us to believe that entrance into heaven requires no holy conduct nor purpose?

"On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " 1 Cor 6:8-10

Regards!

[Sulla]

Quote:

By the way, everyone, please note very carefully the highlighted 'if' statements in this post of mine:

Hard not to when you make them blue and bold.

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What I am saying is that, if we accept Sulla's claim that all of Ellen White's writings must be judged as one single corpus, and all of that corpus must be understood as teaching sinless perfection as the requirement for salvation, there would be no choice for a Christian but to reject Ellen White's writings.

But I reject Sulla's claim, so therefore I am most emphatically not saying "I reject Ellen White's writings". I am not logically forced to do so.

Sorry let me be more accurate you only have to reject all the ones that dont agree with your mistaken view on the subject

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Rather, I am taking the much more reasonable (IMO) position that she was someone who learned and grew and changed over the long period she was writing, so that some parts display a broader and clearer image than others. There is pretty uncontroversial evidence that she changed her position on a number of issues.

Or as I said before you have incorrect ideas.

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The test of infallibility is a very high one, and one that makes anything or anyone for whom it is claimed very vulnerable, since a single instance of fallibility brings down the whole edifice. I'm making more of a logical point than a theological one.

So do you do with the large numbers of errors and contradictions the muslims and athiests say are in the Bible.

[Robert]

Quote:

As I said, "iniquity" began in the mind of Lucifer. He saw God's agape love as too restrictive. Instead of a love that lived to serve he insisted that the greatest and most satisfying love was the love of self.

Up until that moment no one has ever heard of this principle. "Self-love", said Lucifer, "was the key to true happiness." Hence Lucifer's brand of love looked wonderful, it sounded good, but it was a theory untested.

For 6000 years (or more) Lucifer's brand of "self" has had its way in this world dominated by self-love. What has been the result?

That's why it will never happen again.

Rob

Except even when Satan new it was the wrong course he did not repent.

What does that answer have to do with "why [sin] will never happen again"?

[phkrause]

Another thing about the thief that I like to believe is, that his heart was in the right place but he was always in the wrong place and making the wrong choses. But when the time came for him to make the right chose that day on the cross he did. He stood up for Jesus in front of all those people around the cross that day. And Jesus stood up for him before his father just like he said he would.

pk

[Robert]

My understanding of sanctification is to be set aside for a holy purpose. Would you have us to believe that entrance into heaven requires no holy conduct nor purpose?

"On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren. Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. " 1 Cor 6:8-10

Look at the context!

verse 7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.

9 Do you not know that the wicked [unbelievers] will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Where were you washed? Where were you sanctified (past tense)? Where were you justified?

1 Cor 1:30 "It [salvation] is because of him [God] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our justification, sanctification and redemption.

"In Christ" we already stand justified, sanctified, and glorified. That's what Paul means in 1 Cor 6:11

Now notice one very important point: Paul says, "that is what some of you were", but in his list one of those sins was "swindling" and that sin was ongoing. So how could he say, "that is what some of you were" when swindling was a current issue?

Answer: Because of their position "in Christ" they stood absolutely righteous.

My point?

Without Christ you are wicked, but "in Christ" you are righteous. So the man sinning under law stands condemned, but the man sinning under grace does not stand condemned. The law can't touch him because "in Christ" he died the death that it requires. He died to sin in the body of Christ.

Was there a problem here? Yes! Did it need correcting? Yes. So what Paul is saying it that the wicked...the ungodly...the unbeliever doesn't stand a chance. But the believer is in a different light. They were swindling, yet Paul says that is what some of you were. Couldn't Paul see? Yes, but he saw them "in Christ Jesus".

Yes, they need to mature and bring glory to God, then needed to repent. But nevertheless they were sinless "in Christ Jesus".

Rob

[Robert]

They were swindling, yet Paul says that is what some of you were. Couldn't Paul see? Yes, but he saw them "in Christ Jesus".

2 Cor 5:14 For the [agape] of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh [He assumed our fallen life], yet now we know Him thus no longer [He was raised with a glorified, sinless humanity]. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation [he is sinless "in Christ"]; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

What did Paul say? "We regard NO ONE according to the flesh". In other words Paul saw them not as sinners, but as a "new creation" in Christ Jesus.

So simultaneously we are 100% sinful in ourselves, but "in Christ" we stand 100% righteous. The humanity we received from Adam stands condemned, but the humanity that we have in Christ in the heavenly places stands justified, sanctified and glorified.

Rob

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

If EGW insists that sanctification is some sort of behavior that allows us to enter heaven, I also submit to you, that this is heresy.

My understanding of sanctification is to be set aside for a holy purpose. Would you have us to believe that entrance into heaven requires no holy conduct nor purpose?

[John317]

... our behavior is not what gets us into heaven. Our good/reformed behavior is not sanctification. Sanctification is the result of daily justification.

This is true, except that in place of "daily justification," I would say "daily surrender and submission," a conscious choice for Christ, rather than self and sin, to rule our lives.

Both sin and Christ cannot rule in our lives.

It's all about choice, not our sinful natures.

Sanctification is simply becoming more and more like Christ as we experience a personal, faith-based relationship with Him.

[bygjymbo]

From dictionary.com:

Quote:

Justification

Jus`ti*fi*ca"tion\, n. [L. justificatio: cf. F. justification. See Justify.]

1. The act of justifying or the state of being justified; a showing or proving to be just or conformable to law, justice, right, or duty; defense; vindication; support; as, arguments in justification of the prisoner's conduct; his disobedience admits justification.

If you believe that you can never be sin-free, your actions and decisions are based on that assumption. IMHO it IS impossible for you to be sin-free. You've absolved yourself from any responsibility. You've rendered God powerless over sin in your life. Is that faith?? What was James saying in chapter 2??

Quote:

Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but IF any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

John 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

2 Timothy 2:12 If we endure, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

John 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

If you love Me, keep My commandments......

There's SOOO much proof in this thread..,.

It's through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus that we can overcome.