Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Woody]

John317

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Am I right that Bravus views sin more as "nature" and Sulla views sin as primarily "choice"?

Well yes but there are distinctions made about sin. For example known and unknown. Sin done in ignorance and sin that is a willful rebellion against God.

The issue of "nature" and "choice" is really a waste of time. You just can't isolate them. They are both involved.

[Woody]

Thanks for all your good responses to us Sulla. It is appreciated. I don't happen to agree with them. But do appreciate the spirit in which they are given. I will address a few comments back to you.

Quote:

Safe to save means that God knows you will not sin when you get to heaven.

If we are sinning on this earth .... how are we going to be safe to be in heaven? I know of no one who has stopped sinning when they died. Under this definition ... I won't be in heaven. I am not safe to be in heaven ... unless when I See His Face I am changed and no longer a corrupt sinner. Because at this moment .... I am corrupt with sin.

Praise God ... HE knows my heart. He knows that I accept His life and His sacrifice. His blood. That is what saves me. My sinning or not sinning ... has nothing to do with my salvation praise God. It is all about HIS not sinning and His blood. That is what saves me. For "I" am not worthy. Only HE is worthy. I am not safe to save. But that is why I can come to Him and He is able to save me.

He is worthy.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: guibox

She is not the be all and end all of biblical theology or correct doctrine.

Hey...that's my line! Oh, now I'm mad.... I'll see my lawyer about this copyright infringement!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

... our behavior is not what gets us into heaven. Our good/reformed behavior is not sanctification. Sanctification is the result of daily justification.

This is true, except that in place of "daily justification," I would say "daily surrender and submission," a conscious choice for Christ, rather than self and sin, to rule our lives.

Both sin and Christ cannot rule in our lives.

It's all about choice, not our sinful natures.

Sanctification is simply becoming more and more like Christ as we experience a personal, faith-based relationship with Him.

And yet, both sin and Christ, for the Christain are in the lives of each. Otherwise, why the DAILY submission/justification?

But no, it is NOT ONLY about choice. David mentioned that he was concieved in sin [that's a reference to the nature of sin in the human.]. There are references to iniquity, which is a reference to our natural tendencys to self destruct. And I am sure that there were other texts that refers that sin is in nature.

And I agree that as we make those daily decisions for Christ, the hope is that there is a change in our behavior. But our behavior does NOT guarentee entrance into heaven. It is our hope/fait/love in Christ's sacrifice for us that gets us there.........

[John317]

Again, that last seems to say Jesus died only for our past sins, but we have to be accountable for our present sins ourselves in a trial. That is earned salvation which is partly based on our merits. And that is heresy.

Ellen White didn't teach that Jesus' death was only for our past sins. That fact that our lives come up in the Investigative Judgment is not a denial that Jesus died for all sins.

Our doctrines do not teach that we earn salvation by our merits at all.

Does that mean that our lives have nothing whatsoever to do with whether we will be saved? Of course not. The Bible itself shows clearly that what we do in this life is related to our salvation. One cannot read the Gospels without seeing this, nor the epistles of Saint Paul. Look, for example, at 1 Cor. 6: 9-11.

We're not saved by good works or by obedience, but no one will be saved without them. It is the same with our faith. Our faith isn't what saves us. God saves us, and it is by grace, apart from any works of law whatever. Yet at the same time, no one will be saved apart from faith in Christ.

Bravus, I'm not sure how much you've studied the Investigative Judgment or what you've read. I'd like to suggest that if you haven't already read it, please read the chapter, "Christ's Ministry In the Heavenly Sanctuary," in the book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe.... 27-- A Biblical Exposition of Fundamental Doctrines, a book you may have already but which if you don't, is readily available at the ABC.

There's also a very good chapter on the same topic in the 12th volume of the SDA Bible Commentary series. It is in the chapter entitled, "The Sanctuary," written by Angel Manuel Rodriguez.

[Woody]

Redwood

Quote:

John ... I would not want to stop all of your declarations. They show clearly why your point of view that is so dangerous. Continue.

Redwood I do think John has a point. If we believe in Ellen White and the Bible we have to show how EVERY quote fits into our understanding. We cant just throw out or overlook the ones we do not like. I want to see every quote on both sides I can. As a matter of fact the ones that are hard for me to explain are the ones I want to see the most. These are the ones that will show any error in my understanding.

This is why I told John317 to continue ...

I agree with you. I think that statement from John317 are instructive and show clearly the results of his beliefs. So ... I would not want to throw out any quotes. I think we can clearly see the error in some and light in others. I can see how many people read quotes in the light of their limited or bent understanding. I see no problem with that. God is working with each of us step by step. But for me ... I will view all quotes in the light of our Redeemer.

It is not a matter of throwing out or overlooking the ones we don't like. It is a matter of looking at each one with the right glasses one. We need to do as Ellen White has instructed us to do and compare her writings with scripture. Then after prayer to God ... we will toss out those that do not measure up. Ellen grew in her understanding. We are not to accept her infantile comments made while she had limited views. We are to accept her mature comments that measure up to scripture.

[Woody]

Bravus

Quote:

Many of the quotes you provided, John, are more correct: they say that sanctification will bring us to perfection, and we might quibble over the definitions of perfection, but they do not say that that perfection is a condition of our salvation. *That* is where the heresy lies. EGW clearly understands, in other quotes, that it is Christ's righteousness alone that is necessary and sufficient for our salvation, but in the quotes above she at least seems to suggest that we must add our own perfection to it in order to be saved.

I should just add that attempting to understand my perspective by aligning it with New Theology, Old Theology, Orthodoxy or Heterodoxy is not going to make that much sense, since I do not ally myself with a particular camp or read a particular literature, but read broadly and test all against the Bible alone.

Think of it this way. We both believe we will be perfect in heaven. We both believe our works having nothing to do with our right to heaven. The difference is we believe God will give us a perfect character here and then the new body when he comes. Thats the difference. So really what we are saying is that people are refusing to accept their new character. Just like if when God came they would say no I dont want that new body:)

[Neil D]

From dictionary.com:

Quote:

Justification

Jus`ti*fi*ca"tion\, n. [L. justificatio: cf. F. justification. See Justify.]

1. The act of justifying or the state of being justified; a showing or proving to be just or conformable to law, justice, right, or duty; defense; vindication; support; as, arguments in justification of the prisoner's conduct; his disobedience admits justification.

If you believe that you can never be sin-free, your actions and decisions are based on that assumption. IMHO it IS impossible for you to be sin-free. You've absolved yourself from any responsibility. You've rendered God powerless over sin in your life. Is that faith?? What was James saying in chapter 2??

There's SOOO much proof in this thread..,.

It's through the grace of God and the sacrifice of Jesus that we can overcome.

I don't think that anyone is looking to absolving oneself from sin...we all know that we stand condemned. The problem is what to do after a Christian accepts Christ. What is his status/duty as a Christian?

It is my opinion, based upon talks with Dennis Priebe, et al theologins, that what Christ works on is the character of the individual. Yes, it is our characters that we take to heaven, but we are already saved due to our choice in accepting Christ's sacrifice. There is absolutely no way to be justified before, or after our acceptance of the Sacrifice before God based upon our merits. Tain't gonna happen.

Having said that, nevertheless, we respond, based upon our knowledge and our understanding and our circumstances to Christ as evidence that we have responded to His Sacrifice....and it affects our characters...

[John317]

Quote:

But no, it is NOT ONLY about choice. David mentioned that he was concieved in sin [that's a reference to the nature of sin in the human.']. There are references to iniquity, which is a reference to our natural tendencys to self destruct. And I am sure that there were other texts that refers that sin is in nature.

We have no choice over whether we will be born with a sinful, fallen nature. Christ was also born with the same human nature that His mother had, which was fallen. He was tempted in the same way that we are. Yet He chose every day and every moment to be fully surrendered to God. He chose every day to submit to the will of His Father. Jesus had inclinations to want to assert His will in the place of the Father's will, but He refused to allow those inclinations to rule in His life. Every time a sinful thought or temptation came to His mind, Jesus immediately chose to reject it. He was really tempted but He chose God's way over His own way. His way would have been to use His power to avoid suffering and death, but He submitted to God's way, which meant suffering and death.

Sin is primarily transgression or violation of God's law, and that is a choice. The Bible view of sin is not primarily "nature."

Romans 6: 1, 15 show that we don't have to sin, that it is a choice whether the believer continues to go on sinning.

No believer in Christ, who has the Holy Spirit in his life, can be forced to sin. Temptations are not sin. Sinning occurs when we yield to temptation. Both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy are very clear that God provides us with the power and ability to resist every temptation to commit sin. See 1 John 3: 1-10.

Check out these quotes--

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. MH 180

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong.--The Review and Herald,Dec. 22, 1885. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 82, paragraph 3

Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . You may be living epistles, known and read of all men. You are not to be a dead letter, but a living one, testifying to the world that Jesus is able to save. Our High Calling (1961), page 76, paragraph 5

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law.The Review and Herald, August 28, 1894, paragraph 4

[Woody]

Quote:

There is another possibility. That is that you are not understanding the quotes you think agree with you. That you have a wrong understanding that is now forcing you to have to say Ellen White is wrong.

This is one problem that I find with those who uphold all the writings of Ellen White. They think that they alone have the correct understanding of her.

I don't claim to be able to understand what she wrote 150 years ago. But I do find some of it very contradictory. I don't claim that all of her writings are accurate ... so I don't have to busy myself to try to find some logical explanation. My only job is to compare what she writes with scripture. And I find some of what she says to be lacking in that department.

Does it matter ... NO. Only if one wants to make her infallible which she herself warned not to do. No. It does not matter if at one point in her long life ... that she thought error. We all have. It does not take away from her prophet status one bit.

Quote:

"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" (Evangelism, p. 256).

[Woody]

OK, Sulla, you have made your position clearer. But there still seems to be the strong presumption that if we have not allowed God to completely give us a new character then we will be denied heaven. How is that different from our works contributing to our salvation.

Let me address it another way. We've talked about justification and sanctification, but not yet glorification. The claim you are making is that glorification is *purely* a physical change - restoration of our bodies to their potential for immortality - with no spiritual component.

What do the relevant (Biblical, not EGW) texts say about this? I suspect the transformation is more dramatic than simply a physical upgrade.

Way to go Bravus ....

[Woody]

Quote:

Nonetheless, our own righteousness at all times remains corrupt and as filthy rags, and contributes *zero* to our salvation. Jesus' blood is all that is necessary and all that is relevant for our salvation.

Let me expand this so as to be clear with my personal belief ...

Even the works of Jesus in our lives ... are as filty rags towards our salvation. Our salvation is based TOTALLY on what HE did 2,000 years ago. Period.

But, I don't blame you for bowing out Bravus. It does get old and fruitless to go round and round with someone who believes anything else. Why read and spend time on someone elses error when we have the beautiful words of salvation in the Bible.

I can think of far better ways to spend my time also.

[Woody]

Quote:

Not sure if I can say this any more clearly. Our own merits mean nothing. Our difference is I think God gives us a new character now you think he gives it to us when he comes.

No. I beg to differ. I think it is far more than that. Why? Because those who think that the character of God is given to us now ... believe that since that is so ... we will be perfect and thus that becomes a requirement for admitance to Heaven.

[Woody]

Quote:

My understanding of sanctification is to be set aside for a holy purpose. Would you have us to believe that entrance into heaven requires no holy conduct nor purpose?

Perfection is required for admitance into Heaven. But it is not my perfection. It is the perfection of the life of Jesus who came and lived that life and died for me.

Quote:

"So I will be your representative in heaven. The Father beholds not your faulty character, but He sees you as clothed in My perfection." DA 357

[John317]

I don't think that anyone is looking to absolving oneself from sin...we all know that we stand condemned. The problem is what to do after a Christian accepts Christ. What is his status/duty as a Christian?

But we also know that there are many who love their sins and do not want to give them up and stop them ENTIRELY. I know this because it is the way I was for over 30 years. I didn't want to completely stop certain sins which I still loved. It is not something a person is necessarily conscious of. But it is the idea that we "can't help it, because we're only human, only sinners," etc.

There is great resistance, then, to the teaching that there is no excuse for sinning and that sin is a choice. People would rather reject Ellen White than give up their excuses for sinning. They want Christ but they want Him in control only if they can also keep their favorite sins. But that is not possible. If sin is reigning, then Christ is not. If Christ is truly reigning in the life, then sin is not reigning.

I believe that the reason Christ has not come before now is that the church is in rebellion against God and has not accepted the 1888 Message, which is that God gives us power by His Spirit to overcome all known sin. As a church and people, we are in rebellion against teachings such as in the following:

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. GC 623

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him. Testimonies For The Church Volume One (1855-1868), page 144, paragraph 2

The Lord desires you to understand the position you occupy as sons and daughters of the Most High, children of the Heavenly King. He desires you to live in close connection with Him. . . . Determine that you will be on the Lord's side. If you will stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel, faithfully doing His service, you need never yield to temptation, for One stands by your side who is able to keep you from falling. Every youth is granted a probation in which to form a character for the future, immortal life. Precious, golden moments these will be to you if you improve them according to the light God is permitting to shine upon you from His throne. . . . That I May Know Him (1964), page 200, paragraph 4

[guibox]

Here are the fallacies of 'safe to save' and 'sinless perfection' that their advocates seem to be clueless to answer:

1) As was said, we should be seeing alot of sinless people walking around. We don't.

2) If being 'safe to save' means that 'we guarantee that we won't be sinning in heaven'i.e., that our character perfection must occur on this earth if we are to be safe to save, then we will have a hard time explaining how those fallible saints who have passed away unexpectedly can be assured of heaven

3) We should have seen the fruits of sinless perfection in the OT for they had the power of the Spirit to do good works just like we did. How can their lack of being 'safe to save' by character perfection be explained?

I'll answer the last two questions: They will be 'safe to save' because the blood of Christ and the believing in the promise of salvation was SUFFICIENT. If it was sufficient for the OT folk, and sufficient for those who've passed on before they can become sinless, then it is ALWAYS SUFFICIENT. For YOU and ME...FOREVER.

Christ alone!

[guibox]

I believe that the reason Christ has not come before now is that the church is in rebellion against God and has not accepted the 1888 Message, which is that God gives us power by His Spirit to overcome all known sin. As a church and people, we are in rebellion against teachings such as in the following:

um...no. It was those who believed that keeping the law through the power of the Spirit and overcoming all our sin that rejected the 1888 message. The 1888 message was righteousness by faith, through grace alone.

[Woody]

John317 ... I am not sure that you understand Steps To Christ. I would recommend this book to you. Even if you have read it before ... a second look would be good.

I think you will find that we are saved by God's Grace alone through faith.

All Christians have works to some point. So, we can just dismiss that requirement since we all have them. Then we can focus on what is needed ... which is the gift of Salvation.

[Woody]

Quote:

" When the Father gave His Son to live and die for man, He placed all the treasures of heaven at our disposal. There is no excuse for sin. God has given us all the advantages He possibly could give, that we may have strength to withstand the temptations of the enemy." TDG 318

It is clear that there is no excuse for sin. We sin. We need the forgiveness and Robe of Christ to be saved.

God has given us all the advantages of Heaven to stop sinning. Yet ... we sin. This is why Jesus had to come down to save us. He gives us the power to be sinless. Praise God. But unfortunately ... none of us take advantage of that.

So, John ... all of your quotes are most accurate and the reason that we need a Saviour.

[Woody]

Here are the fallacies of 'safe to save' and 'sinless perfection' that their advocates seem to be clueless to answer:

1) As was said, we should be seeing alot of sinless people walking around. We don't.

2) If being 'safe to save' means that 'we guarantee that we won't be sinning in heaven'i.e., that our character perfection must occur on this earth if we are to be safe to save, then we will have a hard time explaining how those fallible saints who have passed away unexpectedly can be assured of heaven

3) We should have seen the fruits of sinless perfection in the OT for they had the power of the Spirit to do good works just like we did. How can their lack of being 'safe to save' by character perfection be explained?

I'll answer the last two questions: They will be 'safe to save' because the blood of Christ and the believing in the promise of salvation was SUFFICIENT. If it was sufficient for the OT folk, and sufficient for those who've passed on before they can become sinless, then it is ALWAYS SUFFICIENT. For YOU and ME...FOREVER.

Christ alone!

Thanks for providing a good summary of the fallacy of the 'safe to save' crowd Guibox.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

I believe that the reason Christ has not come before now is that the church is in rebellion against God and has not accepted the 1888 Message, which is that God gives us power by His Spirit to overcome all known sin. As a church and people, we are in rebellion against teachings such as in the following:

um...no. It was those who believed that keeping the law through the power of the Spirit and overcoming all our sin that rejected the 1888 message. The 1888 message was righteousness by faith, through grace alone.

The focus on works is the Babylon message. They think that the focus on works will save them. They indicate that Christ is waiting for people to be without sin. Again ... the focus is on works instead of Christ. Ellen White was right when she said that we are to spend a thoughtful hour each day on the life of Christ. That would get our focus on the right path.

[John317]

John317 ... I am not sure that you understand Steps To Christ. I would recommend this book to you. Even if you have read it before ... a second look would be good.

I think you will find that we are saved by God's Grace alone through faith.

All Christians have works to some point. So, we can just dismiss that requirement since we all have them. Then we can focus on what is needed ... which is the gift of Salvation.

Steps To Christ:

There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6. "Because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow His steps." 1 Peter 2:21.

The condition of eternal life is now just what it always has been,--just what it was in Paradise before the fall of our first parents,--perfect obedience to the law of God, perfect righteousness. If eternal life were granted on any condition short of this, then the happiness of the whole universe would be imperiled. The way would be open for sin, with all its train of woe and misery, to be immortalized.

It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law. We have no righteousness of our own with which to meet the claims of the law of God. But Christ has made a way of escape for us. He lived on earth amid trials and temptations such as we have to meet. He lived a sinless life. He died for us, and now He offers to take our sins and give us His righteousness. If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned.

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience.

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.

When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "whowalk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.

[Robert]

Sin is primarily transgression or violation of God's law, and that is a choice. The Bible view of sin is not primarily "nature."

False!

The love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John 4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I believe that the reason Christ has not come before now is that the church is in rebellion against God and has not accepted the 1888 Message, which is that God gives us power by His Spirit to overcome all known sin. As a church and people, we are in rebellion against teachings such as in the following:

um...no. It was those who believed that keeping the law through the power of the Spirit and overcoming all our sin that rejected the 1888 message. The 1888 message was righteousness by faith, through grace alone.

Ellen White, E.J Waggoner and A.T. Jones preached and taught at the same time the same message, often from the same platform.

A.T. Jones, The Consecrated Way--

..... the finishing of the mystery of God in the cleansing of the true Christian sanctuary. And this is done in the cleansing of the true sanctuary, only in the finishing of transgression and making an end of sins in the perfecting of the believers in Jesus, on the one hand, and on the other hand in the finishing of transgression and making an end of sins in the destruction of the wicked and the cleansing of the universe from all taint of sin that has ever been upon it.

The finishing of the mystery of God is the ending of the work of the gospel. And the ending of the work of the gospel is, first, the taking away of all vestige of sin and the bringing in of everlasting righteousness--Christ fully formed--within each believer, God alone manifest in the flesh of each believer in Jesus, and, secondly, on the other hand, the work of the gospel being finished means only the destruction of all who then shall not have received the gospel (2 Thess. 1:7-10), for it is not the way of the Lord to continue men in life when the only possible use they will make of life is to heap up more misery for themselves.

Again, in the service of the earthly sanctuary, we have seen that when the work of the gospel in the annual course was finished in behalf of those who had taken part in it, then all those who had taken no part in it were cut off. "Which was a figure for the time then present" and which plainly teaches that in the service of the true sanctuary when the work of the gospel shall have been finished for all those who have a part in it, then all those who do not have a part in it will be cut off. Thus, in both respects, the finishing of the mystery of God is the final ending of sin.

The service in the earthly sanctuary shows also that in order for the sanctuary to be cleansed and the course of the gospel service there to be finished, it must first be finished in the people who have a part in the service. That is to say: In the sanctuary itself, transgression could not be finished, an end of sins and reconciliation for iniquity could not be made, and everlasting righteousness could not be brought it, until all this had been accomplished in each person who had a part in the service of the sanctuary. The sanctuary itself could not be cleansed until each of the worshipers had been cleansed. The sanctuary itself could not be cleansed so long as, by the confessions of the people and the intercessions of the priests, there was pouring into the sanctuary a stream of iniquities, transgressions, and sins. The cleansing of the sanctuary, as to the sanctuary itself, was the taking out of and away from the sanctuary all the transgressions of the people which, by the service of the priests, had been taken into the sanctuary during the service of the year. And this stream must be stopped at its fountain in the hearts and lives of the worshipers, before the sanctuary itself could possibly be cleansed.

Therefore the very first work in the cleansing of the sanctuary was the cleansing of the people. That which was preliminary and essential to the cleansing of the sanctuary itself, to the finishing of the transgression and bringing in everlasting righteousness, there, was the finishing of transgression, and the making an end of sins, and making reconciliation for iniquity, and bringing in everlasting righteousness in the heart and life of each one of the people themselves. When the stream that flowed into the sanctuary was thus stopped at its source, then, and then alone, could the sanctuary itself be cleansed from the sins and transgressions which, from the people, by the intercession of the priests, had flowed into the sanctuary.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Sin is primarily transgression or violation of God's law, and that is a choice. The Bible view of sin is not primarily "nature."

False!

The love of self is the underlying principle of all sin, in complete opposition to the principle of God’s government which is founded upon selfless love or agape [see 1 John 4:7, 8, 16]. Sin therefore may be rightly interpreted as rebellion against God or His agape. According to 1 Corinthians 13:5, there is no love of self in agape.

We cannot help that we are born with a fallen nature. But we can choose Christ, and we can choose not to commit sin. That is the issue. Christ showed us the way to choose the Father's will over our own wills. Choosing Him or sin is a decision we face every moment of every day of our lives. Justified believers with the Holy Spirit living in them are empowered to resist every temptation to sin. The Bible is very clear that we do not have to sin. Sinning is a choice. See 1 John 3: 1-10 and the paragraphs:

Quote:

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him. Testimonies For The Church Volume One (1855-1868), page 144, paragraph 2

The Lord desires you to understand the position you occupy as sons and daughters of the Most High, children of the Heavenly King. He desires you to live in close connection with Him. . . . Determine that you will be on the Lord's side. If you will stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel, faithfully doing His service, you need never yield to temptation, for One stands by your side who is able to keep you from falling. Every youth is granted a probation in which to form a character for the future, immortal life. Precious, golden moments these will be to you if you improve them according to the light God is permitting to shine upon you from His throne. . . . That I May Know Him (1964), page 200, paragraph 4

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 311, paragraph 3

Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through his grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord. The Review and Herald, March 15, 1906, paragraph 8

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. MH 180

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong.--The Review and Herald,Dec. 22, 1885. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 82, paragraph 3

Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . You may be living epistles, known and read of all men. You are not to be a dead letter, but a living one, testifying to the world that Jesus is able to save. Our High Calling (1961), page 76, paragraph 5

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. The Review and Herald, August 28, 1894, paragraph 4