Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[John317]

Quote:

"Through the merits of the Redeemer, God accepts the efforts of sinful man in keeping His law, which is holy,just and good" Sons and Daughters of God p. 41

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

Quote:

1 John 3:1+2 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

And these--

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. GC 623

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him.

Testimonies For The Church Volume One (1855-1868), page 144, paragraph 2

The Lord desires you to understand the position you occupy as sons and daughters of the Most High, children of the Heavenly King. He desires you to live in close connection with Him. . . . Determine that you will be on the Lord's side. If you will stand under the blood-stained banner of Prince Emmanuel, faithfully doing His service, you need never yield to temptation, for One stands by your side who is able to keep you from falling. Every youth is granted a probation in which to form a character for the future, immortal life. Precious, golden moments these will be to you if you improve them according to the light God is permitting to shine upon you from His throne. . . . That I May Know Him (1964), page 200, paragraph 4

The tempter's agency is not to be accounted an excuse for one wrong act. Satan is jubilant when he hears the professed followers of Christ making excuses for their deformity of character. It is these excuses that lead to sin. There is no excuse for sinning. A holy temper, a Christlike life, is accessible to every repenting, believing child of God.

The Desire of Ages (1898), page 311, paragraph 3

Christ came to this earth and lived a life of perfect obedience, that men and women, through his grace, might also live lives of perfect obedience. This is necessary to their salvation. Without holiness no man shall see the Lord. The Review and Herald, March 15, 1906, paragraph 8

The Saviour took upon Himself the infirmities of humanity and lived a sinless life, that men might have no fear that because of the weakness of human nature they could not overcome. Christ came to make us "partakers of the divine nature," and His life declares that humanity, combined with divinity, does not commit sin. MH 180

Through the plan of redemption, God has provided means for subduing every sinful trait, and resisting every temptation, however strong.--The Review and Herald,Dec. 22, 1885. Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), page 82, paragraph 3

Do not settle down in Satan's easy chair, and say that there is no use, you cannot cease to sin, that there is no power in you to overcome. There is no power in you apart from Christ, but it is your privilege to have Christ abiding in your heart by faith, and He can overcome sin in you, when you cooperate with His efforts. . . . You may be living epistles, known and read of all men. You are not to be a dead letter, but a living one, testifying to the world that Jesus is able to save. Our High Calling (1961), page 76, paragraph 5

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. The Review and Herald, August 28, 1894, paragraph 4

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907.

Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 427, paragraph 1

Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people. The Desire of Ages (1898), page 671, paragraph 3

All the humiliation which Christ endured was in behalf of the fallen race, that man might have the mind of Christ. Christ revealed to the world the love of God for fallen man and the perfect love which he bore his Father. And in humanity this same love is to be revealed. In the fallen race the very image of God is to be reflected. The cold heart is to be quickened and glow with divine love. It is to beat in unison with the heart of the Redeemer. The honor of Christ must stand complete in the perfection of the character of his chosen people. He desires that they shall represent his character to the world. In the work of redemption, in the sufferings which Christ was called upon to endure, you are to co-operate with him, that you may be complete in him. In being united to him by faith, believing and receiving him, you become part of himself. Your character is his glory revealed in you. Then, when you shall appear in his presence, you will find the benediction awaiting you, "Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things; I will make thee ruler over the many things; enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." Mrs. E. G. White.

The Signs of the Times , November 25, 1897, paragraph 11

-

[guibox]

Sulla and John 317, you say that we need to be safe to save. This lies at the heart of sinless perfection theology. if we need to be sinlessly perfect to be 'safe to save', then please explain how those dear saints who've died accidentally in a car accident before their time are safe to save.

I know many saints who've passed away that I plan to see in heaven who didn't achieve sinless perfection in this life and didn't have 50+ years to become 'safe to save'

What if you guys died tomorrow?

Would you be 'safe to save'??

Or is Christ's grace a good second option, a safety net if you don't achieve your perfection?

"I work for salvaton through the Spirit but if worse comes to worse, Christ's blood saves me.

Either you are 'safe to save' or you aren't. If I die tomorrow before I've achieved 'safe to save' status, and Christ's blood is enough to make me fit for heaven before I can achieve sinless perfection, then it is WHOLLY SUFFICIENT at ALL times.

Christ alone!

Can you guys not see the blasphemy here in this view?

Can't you guys see that this is simply salvation by works??

I fully hope you will address the logic of this post.

[Woody]

Good post Guibox. The problem with all of the quotes and interpretation is that they are viewed with a different set of lenses than what you and I have. None of the quotes are in error. They just are not understood in the light of God's Grace.

[John317]

Good post Guibox. The problem with all of the quotes and interpretation is that they are viewed with a different set of lenses than what you and I have. None of the quotes are in error. They just are not understood in the light of God's Grace.

I would like to see you or anyone else put those quotes in the light of God's grace so that they say anything different from what their obvious meaning is.

There are quite a few people nowadays who believe those quotes mean exactly what they say, and it is for that reason they claim they are heresy and error.

You are saying they are not heresy or error. I agree with you. They are true statements. And they are not at all unclear.

Take this one, for instance--

Everything Imperfect Will Be Put Away.-- When our earthly labors are ended, and Christ shall come for His faithful children, we shall then shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of our Father. But before that time shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907.

Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 427, paragraph 1

Before what time? What does that sentence tell us? Is it true? Do we believe it?

[Woody]

John ... I would not want to stop all of your declarations. They show clearly why your point of view that is so dangerous. Continue.

[John317]

Sulla and John 317, you say that we need to be safe to save. This lies at the heart of sinless perfection theology. if we need to be sinlessly perfect to be 'safe to save', then please explain how those dear saints who've died accidentally in a car accident before their time are safe to save....

I don't know about Sulla but I don't believe your premise that being "safe to save" requires anyone to be "sinlessly perfect." This may show a misunderstanding on your part of what it is we're saying and what writers like Dennis Priebe are saying.

I'd like to ask you if you accept and believe in the Investigative Judgment and the Great Controversy as it is expressed in our Fundamental Doctrines # 24 and #8:

24. Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary:

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle which the Lord set up and not man. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and began His intercessory ministry at the time of His ascension. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Heb. 8:1-5; 4:14-16; 9:11-28; 10:19-22; 1:3; 2:16, 17; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Num. 14:34; Eze. 4:6; Lev. 16; Rev. 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:12.)

[John317]

John ... I would not want to stop all of your declarations. They show clearly why your point of view that is so dangerous. Continue.

Can you say why my point of view is "so dangerous"? What is "dangerous" about it, and how is it different from what the Bible and Ellen White say? Is there something that I am saying that cannot be found in books such as Seventh-day Adventists Believe... 28-- A Biblical Exposition of Fundamental Doctrines?

[guibox]

John,

From what I understand and in my dealings with other conservative SDAs and perfectionist theologists, being 'safe to save' means that through the Spirit and works, we are perfecting our character and clearing it of every sin in thought and reality. Even if it didn't, my arguments still stand for last generational theology and sinless perfection.

So, what does it mean 'safe to save'? Where does it fall in line with sinless perfection and last generational theology? If this is not what it means, then what's with the emphasis on 'only taking our character to heaven'?

Explain in the light of the quotes from EGW that we have been given that 'safe to save' isn't about sinless perfection.

As far as your last post, I believe that the investigative judgment seeing if the dead in Christ are 'worthy' has to do with whether they have 'accepted the merits of Christ', not whether they stopped sinning in thought and action.

[Bravus]

I have really said everything I can usefully say on the topic, I think. It's certainly not about me and my choice of church community, and I only answered that question in the first place because Sulla asked it twice. I don't believe it's relevant. I do believe it's insulting to ask me whether I view church as a social club.

I recognise that sin is about choice, not nature. I recognise that God's spirit will work in us and transform us and that we will choose sin less and less. But as I've said here before, even if it were possible to cease all sins of commission, what about sins of omission?

Ellen White departs from Christian theology when she says that we cannot be accepted into heaven unless there is no work remaining for God to do but provide immortality. If the qualification for being an SDA means following her in this heresy, then I guess (again) that I have been defined out of the church.

I am a Christian. My 13-point outline of the doctrine of salvation is Christian. Whether we like it or not, the quotes from Ellen White brought in this thread and the comments from John317 and Sulla are not mainstream Christian theology at all. Neither are they the distinctive doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

[John317]

Ellen White departs from Christian theology when she says that we cannot be accepted into heaven unless there is no work remaining for God to do but provide immortality.

Is this the quote?--

We should never forget that we are placed on trial in this world, to determine our fitness for the future life. None can enter heaven whose characters are defiled by the foul blot of selfishness. Therefore, God tests us here, by committing to us temporal possessions, that our use of these may show whether we can be entrusted with eternal riches.--R. & H., May 16, 1893. {CS 22.1}

Quote:

Whether we like it or not, the quotes from Ellen White brought in this thread and the comments from John317 and Sulla are not mainstream Christian theology at all. Neither are they the distinctive doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Are there any specific quotes and comments you have in mind? Besides the above quote, what other quote by Ellen White on the thread do you consider error or heresy?

Seventh-day Adventists hold a number of beliefs that are not mainstream Christian theology, such as, for instance, the Pre-Advent Judgment and the Great Controversy theme.

[Woody]

Good Post Bravus.

I personally feel it is dangerous to allow any author to place us in a narrow box. By nature ... we are sinners. By choice ... we sin. We have all the advantages available to us from Heaven ... to not sin. But, none of us take full advantage of that. If we did ... we would not need a Saviour.

Because of this .... Christ came to this earth to life and die for us. It is by HIS doing and dying that we are saved. It is not by any doing or choices that we may make on this earth except to acknowledge that we are totally helpless without the blood of Jesus.

The glasses that view Ellen White must realize and cover each statement with the understanding that it is the perfect life of Jesus that saves us. And the only way we will ever be fit for heaven is when we see His face. That is when the fitness for heaven happens. Our part is to develop the character that accepts this. That must be perfect. The victory over sin will be incomplete until the second coming.

"It is God's design to restore that similitude by giving to man victory over sin and over every temptation. The restoration will be completed at the second coming." 7BC 649

"Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 John 3:1-2

[John317]

As far as your last post, I believe that the investigative judgment seeing if the dead in Christ are 'worthy' has to do with whether they have 'accepted the merits of Christ', not whether they stopped sinning in thought and action.

What I was asking is whether you believe the statement or whether there are any parts of it that you would take issue with.

Here's a part of the SDA Belief's statement that some stumble over--

Quote:

It [the Investigative Judgment] also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom.

Some challenge the idea that anyone "keeps the commandments of God" or is loyal to God and that this has anything to do with being ready for translation. They also challenge the teaching that the church's keeping the commandments vindicates the justice of God.

[guibox]

Some challenge the idea that anyone "keeps the commandments of God" or is loyal to God and that this has anything to do with being ready for translation. They also challenge the teaching that the church's keeping the commandments vindicates the justice of God.

[Bravus]

Many of the quotes state that only through the power of Christ dwelling in us can we cultivate the character of Christ, and that this is our privilege and our duty, and that we are falling short of our destiny and our high calling if we fail to do so. I can agree with all of that, and although she states it in an unusual way sometimes, that is correct Biblical Christian theology. It's the quotes where she says, word for word, that God does not have the power to save us unless we have reached perfection, that are wrong, and not only for the reasons guibox raised about time.

Here are a few of those quotes, copied and pasted. I've tried to home in on the relevant couple of sentences rather than copy broad slabs - anyone wanting to check the context can scroll back through the thread:

Quote:

When Christ shall come again to earth it will not be to purify and refine the characters of men, and to fit them for Heaven. His work then will only be to change their corruptible bodies and fashion them like unto Christ's most glorious body. Only a symmetrical and perfect character will in that day entitle men to the finishing touch of immortality. {3SP 40.2}

in order to obtain it, we must have a perfect character. The angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth; and we are to obtain a fitness here to join the society of sinless angels. Do you expect that when Christ comes he will give you that fitness? Not at all. You must be found of him without spot, without blemish, or wrinkle, or anything like it. Now is the watching and trying time. Now it is the time to obtain a preparation to abide the day of his coming, and to stand when he appeareth. {RH, April 19, 1870 par. 10}

When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our character, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy, will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects, and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. . . . {CH 43.4}

Many of the quotes you provided, John, are more correct: they say that sanctification will bring us to perfection, and we might quibble over the definitions of perfection, but they do not say that that perfection is a condition of our salvation. *That* is where the heresy lies. EGW clearly understands, in other quotes, that it is Christ's righteousness alone that is necessary and sufficient for our salvation, but in the quotes above she at least seems to suggest that we must add our own perfection to it in order to be saved.

I should just add that attempting to understand my perspective by aligning it with New Theology, Old Theology, Orthodoxy or Heterodoxy is not going to make that much sense, since I do not ally myself with a particular camp or read a particular literature, but read broadly and test all against the Bible alone.

[John317]

From what I understand and in my dealings with other conservative SDAs and perfectionist theologists, being 'safe to save' means that through the Spirit and works, we are perfecting our character and clearing it of every sin in thought and reality.

Do you mean, for instance, as Ellen White expressed it as follows?--

Quote:

Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ. Not even by a thought could our Saviour be brought to yield to the power of temptation. Satan finds in human hearts some point where he can gain a foothold; some sinful desire is cherished, by means of which his temptations assert their power. But Christ declared of Himself: "The prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me." John 14:30. Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble.

It is in this life that we are to separate sin from us, through faith in the atoning blood of Christ. Our precious Saviour invites us to join ourselves to Him, to unite our weakness to His strength, our ignorance to His wisdom, our unworthiness to His merits. God's providence is the school in which we are to learn the meekness and lowliness of Jesus. The Lord is ever setting before us, not the way we would choose, which seems easier and pleasanter to us, but the true aims of life. It rests with us to co-operate with the agencies which Heaven employs in the work of conforming our characters to the divine model. None can neglect or defer this work but at the most fearful peril to their souls. GC 623

"To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne." We can overcome. Yes; fully, entirely. Jesus died to make a way of escape for us, that we might overcome every evil temper, every sin, every temptation, and sit down at last with Him.Testimonies For The Church Volume One (1855-1868), page 144, paragraph 2

Do you believe those statements to be wrong and containing heresy, or do you believe we are simply misunderstanding them?

Quote:

Even if it didn't, my arguments still stand for last generational theology and sinless perfection.

Yes, it is true that Ellen White taught that before the Second Coming, the last generation will have banished all evil and jealousy and every evil plan from the life--

Quote:

But before [the Second Coming] shall come, everything that is imperfect in us will have been seen and put away. All envy and jealousy and evil surmising and every selfish plan will have been banished from the life.--Letter 416, 1907. Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), page 427, paragraph 1

Ellen White says it is very important--

The honor of Christ must stand complete in the perfection of the character of his chosen people. The Signs of the Times , November 25, 1897, paragraph 11

Of the Spirit Jesus said, "He shall glorify Me." The Saviour came to glorify the Father by the demonstration of His love; so the Spirit was to glorify Christ by revealing His grace to the world. The very image of God is to be reproduced in humanity. The honor of God, the honor of Christ, is involved in the perfection of the character of His people.The Desire of Ages (1898), page 671, paragraph 3

[guibox]

Originally Posted By: guibox

From what I understand and in my dealings with other conservative SDAs and perfectionist theologists, being 'safe to save' means that through the Spirit and works, we are perfecting our character and clearing it of every sin in thought and reality.

Do you mean, for instance, as Ellen White expressed it as follows?

Do you believe those statements to be wrong and containing heresy, or do you believe we are simply misunderstanding them?

So which is it, John? You just said that being 'safe to save' didn't mean 'sinless perfection' but now you are?

I don't believe EGW was infallible. EGW came from a strong, Wesleyan/Methodist background. It would be foolish to think that she was not influenced by it and the Arminianism of her day. She also was growing theologically. Des Ford has quotes from her that show her moving away from a sinless perfectionist theology later on in her life. Plua, as Brevus and others have mentioned, quotes can be given from both sides of EGW.

You see, it is only when you make EGW infallible and the sole intepreter and exegeter of scripture that she must NOT be wrong in all areas. It is only when you make her words to be manna straight from heaven to be interpreted as is, never changed and a blanket statement for entire generations that her being wrong is an issue.

And most especially, it is when you place EGW and her writings in the wrong context of their role for the church instead of their proper place as is laid out by Paul that her being wrong becomes a serious issue.

It is here where the uber-conservatives and the former-SDAs err. They do not understand the role of EGW and her writings and that she was not to be a historian, exegete of scripture, theologian, biblical interpreter or sectarian leader.

EGW was not to be a straight jacket on biblical interpretation or changing our views. She encouraged changing what needed to be changed.

Anyway, my point is that I believe that EGW wasn't infallible and if we were supposed to believe that she could never be wrong, then we'd have to abandon her as she did make errors. Many formers have already done that because they (like too many uber-conservatives today) hold her up to too high of a standard and place expectations on her that should never have been placed. She made errors. She was wrong sometimes..that's okay. She was not meant to be infallible. She knew her limitations.

She is not the be all and end all of biblical theology or correct doctrine.

If she is, then we are a sectarian/cultic organization.

I suggest that you read the 1919 GC discussion led by AG Daniells on this matter. They were discussing the way EGW and the SOP were to be used.

[John317]

It's the quotes where she says, word for word, that God does not have the power to save us unless we have reached perfection, that are wrong, and not only for the reasons guibox raised about time.

Here are a few of those quotes, copied and pasted. I've tried to home in on the relevant couple of sentences rather than copy broad slabs - anyone wanting to check the context can scroll back through the thread:

Quote:

When Christ shall come again to earth it will not be to purify and refine the characters of men, and to fit them for Heaven. His work then will only be to change their corruptible bodies and fashion them like unto Christ's most glorious body. Only a symmetrical and perfect character will in that day entitle men to the finishing touch of immortality. {3SP 40.2}

in order to obtain it, we must have a perfect character. The angels of God are watching the development of character. Angels of God are weighing moral worth; and we are to obtain a fitness here to join the society of sinless angels. Do you expect that when Christ comes he will give you that fitness? Not at all. You must be found of him without spot, without blemish, or wrinkle, or anything like it. Now is the watching and trying time. Now it is the time to obtain a preparation to abide the day of his coming, and to stand when he appeareth. {RH, April 19, 1870 par. 10}

When He comes He is not to cleanse us of our sins, to remove from us the defects in our character, or to cure us of the infirmities of our tempers and dispositions. If wrought for us at all, this work will all be accomplished before that time. When the Lord comes, those who are holy will be holy still. Those who have preserved their bodies and spirits in holiness, in sanctification and honor, will then receive the finishing touch of immortality. But those who are unjust, unsanctified, and filthy, will remain so forever. No work will then be done for them to remove their defects, and give them holy characters. The Refiner does not then sit to pursue His refining process and remove their sins and their corruption. This is all to be done in these hours of probation. It is now that this work is to be accomplished for us. . . . {CH 43.4}

I don't see anywhere in the above quotes where she says that "God does not have the power to save us unless we have reached perfection."

What is you main theological objection to the above EGW statements?

Do you believe they contradict other things she wrote?

I think those quotes totally agree with GC 425, 483, 485, 623. Do you object to those pages?

Let me know if you can't access them. They deal with the spiritual condition of those who are translated.

[Bravus]

Quote:

What is you main theological objection to the above EGW statements?

Do you believe they contradict other things she wrote?

My main theological objection to them is that I believe they contradict the Bible.

I am much less concerned about whether her huge body of writings are internally consistent: I largely agree with guibox's point that if we take her entire corpus and claim that the test is infallibility, then we have to reject her entire corpus. A more realistic and sensible reading that realises she wrote over a long period in a wide variety of contexts and that her understanding developed over time works much better.

Nonetheless, on their face they do seem to contradict other things she wrote. I might be misreading them, but if so then she wrote poorly, because they seem pretty unequivocal.

Will dig up those GC pages and get back to you.

[John317]

I suggest that you read the 1919 GC discussion led by AG Daniells on this matter. They were discussing the way EGW and the SOP were to be used.

I've read that many times. They're free to discuss their opinions, and that is all they are. Worth knowing and reading, for sure. Gives us insight into what those men thought, and that is definitely of great historical interest.

What we want to do is establish what she said. If you or anyone else wants to discount what she says, that is up to you. But we need to be straight on what she wrote.

Personally, I would rather take what she said rather than what anyone outside the Bible says. She was a true prophet of God, at least as far as I am concerned, and as far as the church is concerned as well.

I believe she was right about these matters. I believe what she says is supported by Scripture.

[Bravus]

GC 425

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling.

Nup. If we stood in the sight of a holy God without a mediator we would be instantly consumed. Scripture is very clear on this point.

GC 483

Quote:

All who have truly repented of sin, and by faith claimed the blood of Christ as their atoning sacrifice, have had pardon entered against their names in the books of heaven; as they have become partakers of the righteousness of Christ, and their characters are found to be in harmony with the law of God, their sins will be blotted out, and they themselves will be accounted worthy of eternal life.

This can be read a couple of ways, but on its face is heretical. The blotting out of our sins in the book and the recording of 'Pardoned' is instantaneous, depending only on Jesus' perfect record being written over our mess. It's not a slow process where the sins get blotted out one by one as we stop doing them or as we repent and ask forgiveness, and if we happen to forget one or not yet recognise that it's sin and die, we're damned because an earlier section of the same page says that's what happens if *any* sins are left on the ledger in our account.

Bottom line is, the only way *any* of us are seeing heaven is with Jesus' perfect substitutionary sacrifice as the sole entry in our account. Anything else and every single one of us is hellbound.

GC 485 - no objections here, this can be read as straight gospel: the work of salvation is the work of Jesus

GC 623 - this is not talking about salvation, but about survival and faithfulness in the Time of Trouble. It is true to say that our characters are crucial in that time, and to say so is not to say that it is our own characters that get us into heaven.

[Bravus]

Let me try to clarify the discussion a bit:

Are you (John317 and Sulla) saying:

1. That Ellen White does not teach that our own character and sinlessness are essential for our salvation, and that those of us who read her that way are mistaken?

Or are you saying:

2. That Ellen White does teach that our own character and sinlessness are essential for our salvation, and that this is in fact the case?

We can sling quotes back and forth for weeks, but clarifying this distinction might help to make the discussion more fruitful.

If it's the second, then I maintain that she is teaching heresy, and ironically heresy that is close to that which SDAs claim Catholics teach. If it's the first, then I look forward to a clarification of the relevant quotes that shows that she is teaching the Gospel.

[Bravus]

This is a side note to the main discussion, just to dispose of a particular issue, so I've coloured it differently. If anyone wants to discuss this further, let's start a new thread for it rather than derail this one.

Let's lay aside the canard that the real gospel is 'cheap grace' and suggests that people are free to keep on sinning. No, sanctification is essential, and is our high calling, and we are falling far short of what God has in store for us if we don't give any and every sin over to Him for destruction. Becoming Christ-like is central to Christianity, naturally.

It simply doesn't save us. Only Jesus can do that.

But it's unfair and irrelevant for anyone to claim that we believe this as an excuse to sin, or that teaching this excuses sin, and a perfectionist doctrine that requires our own works to ready us for heaven is necessary to avoid decadence.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you mean, for instance, as Ellen White expressed it as follows?

Do you believe those statements to be wrong and containing heresy, or do you believe we are simply misunderstanding them?[/quote']

So which is it, John? You just said that being 'safe to save' didn't mean 'sinless perfection' but now you are?

Not sure what you mean here, guibox. Now am I what--safe to save or sinless?

Neither one of those is for us to say about ourselves. No one is going to consider himself sinless, that's for sure. As far as being safe to save, that is God's prerogative to decide; we certainly don't know. I think that if most people are honest, they will say they don't consider themselves safe to save.

Do you believe what the Bible and Ellen White say about the seal of God being placed on believers just before Christ returns?

[John317]

GC 425

Quote:

Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling.

Nup. If we stood in the sight of a holy God without a mediator we would be instantly consumed. Scripture is very clear on this point.

Aren't you talking about standing in the "presence" rather than within "the sight of" of a holy God without a mediator? If we were in the unprotected presence and full glory of a holy God, certainly we would be consumed, but that is not what Ellen White is saying in that passage. She is simply saying that from that point on, no sins are forgiven. When He comes, Christ does not come as intercessor, mediator or High Priest. Probation will have closed and sin will have been completely dealt with. He comes as King, not as High Priest. See Daniel 12:1; Hebrews 9: 28; Rev. 19: 11-16; Rev. 22: 11.

[John317]

I don't believe EGW was infallible. EGW came from a strong, Wesleyan/Methodist background. It would be foolish to think that she was not influenced by it and the Arminianism of her day. She also was growing theologically. Des Ford has quotes from her that show her moving away from a sinless perfectionist theology later on in her life. Plua, as Brevus and others have mentioned, quotes can be given from both sides of EGW.

You see, it is only when you make EGW infallible and the sole intepreter and exegeter of scripture that she must NOT be wrong in all areas. It is only when you make her words to be manna straight from heaven to be interpreted as is, never changed and a blanket statement for entire generations that her being wrong is an issue.

And most especially, it is when you place EGW and her writings in the wrong context of their role for the church instead of their proper place as is laid out by Paul that her being wrong becomes a serious issue.

It is here where the uber-conservatives and the former-SDAs err. They do not understand the role of EGW and her writings and that she was not to be a historian, exegete of scripture, theologian, biblical interpreter or sectarian leader.

EGW was not to be a straight jacket on biblical interpretation or changing our views. She encouraged changing what needed to be changed.

Anyway, my point is that I believe that EGW wasn't infallible and if we were supposed to believe that she could never be wrong, then we'd have to abandon her as she did make errors. Many formers have already done that because they (like too many uber-conservatives today) hold her up to too high of a standard and place expectations on her that should never have been placed. She made errors. She was wrong sometimes..that's okay. She was not meant to be infallible. She knew her limitations.

She is not the be all and end all of biblical theology or correct doctrine.

If she is, then we are a sectarian/cultic organization.

Interesting view. Helps me to understand some things.

Now that you've assured us that Ellen White made mistakes and is not infallible and that she can be wrong and had limitations and is not to be a straight jacket on Biblical interpretations and that she encouraged changing what needs to be changed and that she is not the end-all of Biblical theology and correct doctrine and not the sole interpreter and that she was influenced in her views by Methodism and Arianism, and that no one can be sure of what she taught because quotes from her can be given on both sides of the issue---

now, I say, that you have built her up (or however you would characterize it) as God's prophet for these last days, and given us assurance that she is useful and can be trusted in some way or other, what does she say about the issues we're discussing here? Is there any way for us to know or are her views so confused that we cannot know? Or is it even worth while for anyone to make the effort to try to determine what our prophet taught?