Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Sulla]

Redwood

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"The Testimonies of Sister White should not be carried to the front. God's Word is the unerring standard. The Testimonies are not to take the place of the Word of God. . . . Let us prove all our positions from Scripture and substantiate every point they claim from the revealed Word of God" (Evangelism, p. 256).

Purpose of the Testimonies.--The Word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind, and

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may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the Word of God their study, are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the Word that they have neglected to follow. The Word of God abounds in general principles for the formation of correct habits of living, and the Testimonies, general and personal, have been calculated to call their attention more especially to these principles.--Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 663, 664. (1889) {Ev 256.4}

[Sulla]

Neil

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And yet, both sin and Christ, for the Christain are in the lives of each. Otherwise, why the DAILY submission/justification?

But no, it is NOT ONLY about choice. David mentioned that he was concieved in sin [that's a reference to the nature of sin in the human.]. There are references to iniquity, which is a reference to our natural tendencys to self destruct. And I am sure that there were other texts that refers that sin is in nature.

And I agree that as we make those daily decisions for Christ, the hope is that there is a change in our behavior. But our behavior does NOT guarentee entrance into heaven. It is our hope/fait/love in Christ's sacrifice for us that gets us there.........

You seem to be getting my point in reverse order. Our actions our the evidence of our heart. If we dont have them its the sign to us and God alike our heart is not correct. He says take this new heart now in this life. This new character now in this life. Take my power now in this life. He is giving us the gift of breaking the chains so we dont have to live in sin in this life. And you are saying no he does not have the power to help us overcome our sin since we have these fallen bodies. We will have to wait until he comes. So again I say its all about WHEN we think he gives us a new character.

[Robert]

Known willful sins are NOT covered.

Again, "Self-love, self-interest, must perish." Anything outside this is willful sin and according to your own theology these willful sins are not covered.

Rob

[Sulla]

Redwood

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This is why I told John317 to continue ...

I agree with you. I think that statement from John317 are instructive and show clearly the results of his beliefs. So ... I would not want to throw out any quotes. I think we can clearly see the error in some and light in others. I can see how many people read quotes in the light of their limited or bent understanding. I see no problem with that. God is working with each of us step by step. But for me ... I will view all quotes in the light of our Redeemer.

It is not a matter of throwing out or overlooking the ones we don't like. It is a matter of looking at each one with the right glasses one. We need to do as Ellen White has instructed us to do and compare her writings with scripture. Then after prayer to God ... we will toss out those that do not measure up. Ellen grew in her understanding. We are not to accept her infantile comments made while she had limited views. We are to accept her mature comments that measure up to scripture.

OK this helps me understand your view more now. It seems to be this. If you find Ellen White statements that dont agree with your interpretation of things you say they must be in error. Fair enough and thanks for being up front about it.

[Robert]

If you find Ellen White statements that dont agree with your interpretation of things you say they must be in error.

In other words Redwood, don't think for yourself. Don't let the Spirit guide. You must let EGW be your guide. She must be your pope. She must dictate to you her infallible knowledge so that you too can be saved.

Rob

[Sulla]

Redwood

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Would it not be that if God gave us a perfect character NOW .... we would not be sinning?

If this is true ... we should be witnessing sinless people walking this earth. And that just ain't so. No. When we SEE Him ... then we will be made perfect and fit for heaven. It just ain't going to happen on this sinful earth. Our only perfection is His Robe covering us:

YES exactly. We would should not be committing KNOWN sin now. That does not mean there is not a vast ocean of unknown sin God has not shown us yet. And Ellen White says this exact thing. God brings sins to us to over come 1 by 1 not all at one time. So you are looking for people with all unknown sin taken away also and you are not likely to see that.

[Sulla]

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I don't think that anyone is looking to absolving oneself from sin...we all know that we stand condemned. The problem is what to do after a Christian accepts Christ. What is his status/duty as a Christian?

It is my opinion, based upon talks with Dennis Priebe, et al theologins, that what Christ works on is the character of the individual. Yes, it is our characters that we take to heaven, but we are already saved due to our choice in accepting Christ's sacrifice. There is absolutely no way to be justified before, or after our acceptance of the Sacrifice before God based upon our merits. Tain't gonna happen.

Having said that, nevertheless, we respond, based upon our knowledge and our understanding and our circumstances to Christ as evidence that we have responded to His Sacrifice....and it affects our characters...

I think you are confusing what we are saying our actions are. Our actions show that we have accepted the new character that is part of justification and sanctification. If we have accepted this we can not be living in known sin. If we are living in known sin you really have not given God 100% of your heart.

[Sulla]

Redwood

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This is one problem that I find with those who uphold all the writings of Ellen White. They think that they alone have the correct understanding of her.

Haha no I am pointing out a possibility. And its true for me also. I could be wrong and should reject Ellen WHites Statements. You could be wrong and should accept her statements. Of course we both think we are correct. If thinking you are correct is bad thing then we are both in trouble.

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I don't claim to be able to understand what she wrote 150 years ago. But I do find some of it very contradictory. I don't claim that all of her writings are accurate ... so I don't have to busy myself to try to find some logical explanation. My only job is to compare what she writes with scripture. And I find some of what she says to be lacking in that department.

All I said was IF your conclusions are wrong then that would be why you dont think she agrees with the Bible. That is a possibility correct?

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Does it matter ... NO. Only if one wants to make her infallible which she herself warned not to do. No. It does not matter if at one point in her long life ... that she thought error. We all have. It does not take away from her prophet status one bit.

It matters because it could be a symptom of you being wrong on your understanding of some very important topics.

[Robert]

Again:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

[Sulla]

guibox

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Here are the fallacies of 'safe to save' and 'sinless perfection' that their advocates seem to be clueless to answer:

No these are easy to answer. Its that you dont understand my views.

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1) As was said, we should be seeing alot of sinless people walking around. We don't.

We are talking about perfection in two different ways as I have tried to point out. Being free from KNOWN sin is not the same as being free from UNKNOWN sin. You can see a sin in someones life and it not be known to them. Not one that God has shown them yet. That does not mean they are living in KNOWN sin.

So its not that I cant explain this its that you will not agree with me on my idea of perfection in this sphere so you will not agree with the answer:)

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2) If being 'safe to save' means that 'we guarantee that we won't be sinning in heaven'i.e., that our character perfection must occur on this earth if we are to be safe to save, then we will have a hard time explaining how those fallible saints who have passed away unexpectedly can be assured of heaven

No not at all. As the Bible says we need not sin. BUT if we do we have an advacate. If we stumble and fall we can repent.

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3) We should have seen the fruits of sinless perfection in the OT for they had the power of the Spirit to do good works just like we did. How can their lack of being 'safe to save' by character perfection be explained?

Go back to question one and my expanation of known and unknown sin. And about being able to repent if we stumble.

So as you can see we need to be talking about our understandings of perfection in our sphere here on earth. Compared to Gods perfection in heaven.

[Sulla]

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um...no. It was those who believed that keeping the law through the power of the Spirit and overcoming all our sin that rejected the 1888 message. The 1888 message was righteousness by faith, through grace alone.

Might I suggest the 1888 message was to have balanced message. Its VERY clear this is true by what she wrote to Jones in 1893. This statement makes it very very clear.

Chap. 17 - Faith and Works

Counsel to a Leading Minister on the Presentation of the Relation of Faith and Works

PORTION OF A LETTER TO A. T. JONES, APRIL 9, 1893, LETTER 44, 1893. PUBLISHED IN SELECTED MESSAGES, BOOK ONE, PP. 377-379.

I was attending a meeting, and a large congregation were present. In my dream you were presenting the subject of faith and the imputed righteousness of Christ by faith. You repeated several times that works amounted to nothing, that there were no conditions. The matter was presented in that light that I knew minds would be confused and would not receive the correct impression in reference to faith and works, and I decided to write to you. You state this matter too strongly. There are conditions to our receiving justification and sanctification, and the righteousness of Christ. I know your meaning, but you leave a wrong impression upon many minds. While good works will not save even one soul, yet it is impossible for even one soul to be saved without good works. God saves us under a law, that we must ask if we would receive, seek if we would find, and knock if we would have the door opened unto us. {FW 111.1}

Christ offers Himself as willing to save unto the uttermost all who come unto Him. He invites all to come to Him. "Him that cometh to Me I will in no wise cast out" (John 6:37). You look in reality upon these subjects as I do, yet you make these subjects, through your expressions, confusing to minds. And after you have expressed your mind radically in regard to works, when questions are asked you upon this very subject, it is not lying out in so very clear lines in your own mind, and you cannot define the correct principles to other minds, and you are

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yourself unable to make your statements harmonize with your own principles and faith. {FW 111.2}

The young man came to Jesus with the question, "Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?" (Mark 10:17). And Christ saith unto him, "Why callest thou Me good? There is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." He said unto Him, "Which?" Jesus quoted several, and the young man said unto Him, "All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?" Jesus said unto him, "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow Me." Here are conditions, and the Bible is full of conditions. "But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions" (Matthew 19:17, 20, 21, 22). {FW 112.1}

[bygjymbo]

Why would God set up laws and hold us to standards that are impossible to obey??

Isn't that Satan's very argument???

Isn't that the whole purpose of us receiving The Holy Spirit??

[Sulla]

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The Bible doesn't say this. Sin, iniquity, will not arise a second time! Keep it simple!

I accept it I just dont accept your reason for it.

[Bravus]

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It is become increasingly clear that the only way for some is to reject the Spirit of Prophecy, the same source of authority they use when it supports their favorite idea.

There are many who do the same with the Scriptures.

This is unworthy of you, John. You are impugning the motives of those with whom you disagree. I have been very clear about *not* rejecting the whole of the SOP, but about believing that it is fallible in some points. (And, incidentally, I never use it as a source of authority when the Bible can be used instead... and if there are doctrines that can't be established from the Bible alone hold them in suspicion.)

I don't want to get off into a tangent on EGW, but I don't think it's helpful at all to tar those with different views in this 'friendly debate' thread in the ways you did above. I was also disturbed by your longer post claiming that their views are an excuse to hang onto their loved sins.

[Sulla]

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Then why are you not perfect as God is perfect? Why are you sinning? Why is there self-seeking in your life. After all EGW said:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

Instead of my typing it again. Reference back to my understanding of perfection in our sphere. Known and unknown sin.

[Sulla]

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In other words Redwood, don't think for yourself. Don't let the Spirit guide. You must let EGW be your guide. She must be your pope. She must dictate to you her infallible knowledge so that you too can be saved.

No not at all. I am pointing out a possibility. It could be that Redwood has some wrong ideas about what the Bible teaches. She could there for be having to reject some of Ellen Whites statements because of her own false ideas. In the same way I could have some wrong ideas. And I could be accepting statements that are false.

[Sulla]

Quote:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

Is this supposed to prove something?

[Robert]

Why would God set up laws and hold us to standards that are impossible to obey??

The law was given so you could become a good little boy and get into heaven through your righteousness. No, the law was given to turn sin into transgression. It really made matters worse. Before you were living what you thought was the good life, the natural way, and then comes the law and says "no, you are a sinner and you stand condemned!"

So it made matter worse. Why? Read Gal chapter 3

[Bravus]

Well, you do have one wrong idea... Redwood is a dude.

[Bravus]

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Is this supposed to prove something?

Yes, it proves that EGW knew she had things till to learn. This means there will be things from her earlier writings that will not be as fully informed as things in her later writings. This means that it's impossible to take her whole body of writings as infallible and perfect. I think that's quite a lot to prove.

[Robert]

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Then why are you not perfect as God is perfect? Why are you sinning? Why is there self-seeking in your life. After all EGW said:

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

Instead of my typing it again. Reference back to my understanding of perfection in our sphere. Known and unknown sin.

I'm sorry, the law doesn't accept anything less than perfection. This sphere stuff is an EGW concept. Essentially it teaches that we are saved partially by Christ's work and partially by ours. We do our best (you know, glory for me) and Christ will make up the rest. Sorry, the gospel doesn't teach this.

Rob

[Robert]

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Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

Is this supposed to prove something?

Huh, yes! Read it again very carefully!

[Sulla]

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This is unworthy of you, John. You are impugning the motives of those with whom you disagree. I have been very clear about *not* rejecting the whole of the SOP, but about believing that it is fallible in some points. (And, incidentally, I never use it as a source of authority when the Bible can be used instead... and if there are doctrines that can't be established from the Bible alone hold them in suspicion.)

I don't want to get off into a tangent on EGW, but I don't think it's helpful at all to tar those with different views in this 'friendly debate' thread in the ways you did above. I was also disturbed by your longer post claiming that their views are an excuse to hang onto their loved sins.

Well lets be clear so that you dont think I also am saying what your motives are:)

You could not accept what Ellen WHite says because...

1. They are wrong and you are correct to rejecting them.

2. They are correct but your heart is wrong so you have to reject them.

3. You heart is right like William Miller but because of those around your. Or your age. Or something else you reject something that is correct.

But God is the only judge. Just remember ALL of the above are possible. The Heart Is Deceitful Above All Things. So all of us myself included have to be very careful.

[Sulla]

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Huh, yes! Read it again very carefully!

Oh I understand it and have read it many times. Does this mean all new light is correct - NO. Does it mean some old light is incorrect - NO. Does it mean some new light can be added - Yes.

[Robert]

Christ my righteousness