Sanctification and Perfection friendly debate thread.

[Woody]

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Now you are getting closer to the truth.

No. We have not given our hearts 100% to God. If we did that ... we would be sinless. But he knows our hearts desire. He knows that we want to serve Him better. Step by step he leads and guides. Slowly we give more of our heart to Him. But even when we give 10% ... we are saved. Yes, He desires more. But the moment we accept Him as our Saviour .... we are saved. At that moment ... we give Him 100% of our desire. But at that moment ... we have not surrendered 100% or we would be perfect instantly. No ... perfection takes time. Step by step.

I have sin in my life. Known sin. I am SLOWLY giving more and more of that KNOWN sin ... to Jesus. But my slow ability to give it to Him ... does not in any way take away from my SAVED STATUS at this very moment. Before I stir all of you up from your slumber ... No it does not mean once saved always saved. But I know for certain at this moment that I am accept Jesus. Therefore I am now saved. If I should die today ... I will be among the Redeemed.

This makes more things more clear. But it also is clearly wrong. See below.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

In all the instructions of Jesus, he presents before us the character of God. We are called upon to love God with undivided heart.....He will accept nothing but the whole heart, the supreme love. There must be nothing that will draw the mind away from him. Anything that interposes itself between God and the soul, assumes the form of an idol. Every other thing that can attract the heart is inferior to God, and no man can serve two masters whose interests are at variance. "Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

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No man can serve two masters. If you try to serve the world and the Lord at the same time, the result will be that worldly policy and worldly schemes will become supreme in your life. Why? Because the word of God will become uncongenial; for the heart is not committed to the molding and fashioning of the Holy Spirit. The will is not given up to God, and therefore enmity to God is revealed. The natural impulses of the heart, ministering to the natural man, are chosen to control. . . . {MM 114.4}

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Ye cannot serve God and mammon." {3T 477.4}

Here Christ has brought before us two masters, God and the world, and has plainly presented the fact that it is simply impossible for us to serve both. If our interest in, and love for, this world predominate, we shall not appreciate the things, which, above all others, are worthy of our attention. The love of the world will exclude the love of God and make our highest interests subordinate to worldly considerations. Thus God will not hold so exalted a place in our affections and devotions as do the things of the world. {3T 478.1}

Our works will show the exact extent to which earthly treasures have our affections. The greatest care, anxiety, and labor are devoted to worldly interests, while eternal considerations are made secondary. Here Satan receives of man that homage which he claimed of Christ but failed to obtain. It is the selfish love of the world which corrupts the faith of the professed followers of Christ and makes them weak in moral power. The more they love their earthly riches, the further they depart from God, and the less do they partake of His divine nature that would give them a sense of the corrupting influences in the world and the dangers to which they are exposed. {3T 478.2}

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This is certainly true. All well and good. That is the goal. When we are not 100 percent in an area.... we can not honor God. But the doing is His work. He will see us through ... one area at a time. He does not give instant 100% in each and every 'known' area. He works on His timing ... not ours. In the end ... it is like I say ... HIS responsibility. HE is the one that does the work ... not us.

[Woody]

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If you are say sleeping with the man next doors wife you are probably not saved.

Personally ... I would have NO idea. I do not know their heart. God does. And if that person would die in the arms of an adultrous affair ... God knows their heart. He knows if they would have repented as soon as morning came. I do not. This person is not beyond saving. But neither you nor I know his status.

[Woody]

By the way the reason why people tend to say that if say you are saved while sinning is because your heart is wrong is this. Ellen White says that for most this is the case. No matter what they have decieved themselves into thinking. The truth is love of sin.

But I just try and make it a habbit of not saying things that sound like I am judging you. Since I cant judge you any more than I could judge William Miller. But I can point out where you are wrong;)

In think that William Miller is not your best example. He has already been judged by Ellen White. She has proclaimed that he will be saved. So ... he is one that we can with confidence judge. (That is IF you believe all that Ellen White says)

[Woody]

Well I think the thread has about gotten to the point where no one is really presenting anything new. Every one has stated their belief and understandings of ideas and words. So unless someone has something new I think at this point I will move on.

I think that many things are being presented that might be new to you. I hope that you will try to listen carefully. I think that some of the things brought out are very instructional. Don't abandon ship yet.

The bottom line for me is that it seems you feel you have victory over all known sins. I personally think that is a dangerous philosophy. If I have wrongly come to this conclusion ... please let me know.

[Bravus]

I'd be interested to hear the perspective on assurance and salvation held by John and Sulla. If it's true that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover known sins that have not yet been asked for forgiveness for, does not not mean that we must dip in and out of salvation quite often?

If I slip and snap at my wife or kids in a stressful moment, then the car crashes before I get a chance to pray for forgiveness, am I then damned? That seems to me like a logical consequence of that view.

I know it's a sin to treat my family unkindly, and I have turned that over to God. I fully understand it, and God by his grace is growing me to the point where I can be unfailingly kind.

Redwood had a good point above: for most of us, our experience is instantaneous conversion but not always instantaneous victory. John, I know you've experienced long struggles with particular sins in your life. Do you really believe you kept dipping in and out of salvation all that time?

[John317]

I'd be interested to hear the perspective on assurance and salvation held by John and Sulla. If it's true that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover known sins that have not yet been asked for forgiveness for, does not not mean that we must dip in and out of salvation quite often?

How does the Bible present the subject of assurance? Not once does the Bible say we gain assurance of our salvation on the basis of having once confessed Jesus. Anyone can say they have accepted Christ. But have they? The test is in 1 John 3: 1-10. The devils believe. Some people who are controlled and possessed by Satan have made the claim to believe. Making a mere claim is nothing. Multitudes will be lost who have made a claim of accepting Christ.

According to Scripture, we gain assurance as we experience the Spirit of God in our lives and see that He has been leading us. See below:

And by this we may be sure that we know Him , if we keep His commandments. 1 John 2: 3.

By this we may be sure that we are in him: he who says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which He walked. 1 John 2: 5, 6.

We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3: 14, 15

By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His own Spirit. 1 John 4: 13

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5: 2

By this it may be seen who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not do right is not of God, nor he who not love his brother. 1 John 3: 10

Also study Romans 8: 1-17.

[John317]

... John, I know you've experienced long struggles with particular sins in your life. Do you really believe you kept dipping in and out of salvation all that time?

I loved my sins, Bravus. I wanted Christ, yes, but I didn't make Christ complete Lord of my life, and I also wanted my sins. I allowed my sins to control me, not the Lord. During those 30+ years, I never let Christ be in complete charge of my life.

So it wasn't a matter of going in and out of salvation. I never had it during those years. I wanted it but I was unwilling to give up ALL my sins to Jesus. Would I have been saved if I had died during that time? Not if the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are right.

We're not saved because we say some words and are baptized. We're saved because we truly accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. That requires total surrender of our whole lives to Him. It's not an intellectual belief, but a belief that results in obedience and choosing God's will over our own.

[Sulla]

Quote:

In think that William Miller is not your best example. He has already been judged by Ellen White. She has proclaimed that he will be saved. So ... he is one that we can with confidence judge. (That is IF you believe all that Ellen White says)

Umm that was my point.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I think that many things are being presented that might be new to you. I hope that you will try to listen carefully. I think that some of the things brought out are very instructional. Don't abandon ship yet.

The bottom line for me is that it seems you feel you have victory over all known sins. I personally think that is a dangerous philosophy. If I have wrongly come to this conclusion ... please let me know.

No I have seen all of this before. Got a couple of new quotes so that was good.

[Sulla]

Quote:

I'd be interested to hear the perspective on assurance and salvation held by John and Sulla. If it's true that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover known sins that have not yet been asked for forgiveness for, does not not mean that we must dip in and out of salvation quite often?

If I slip and snap at my wife or kids in a stressful moment, then the car crashes before I get a chance to pray for forgiveness, am I then damned? That seems to me like a logical consequence of that view.

I know it's a sin to treat my family unkindly, and I have turned that over to God. I fully understand it, and God by his grace is growing me to the point where I can be unfailingly kind.

Redwood had a good point above: for most of us, our experience is instantaneous conversion but not always instantaneous victory. John, I know you've experienced long struggles with particular sins in your life. Do you really believe you kept dipping in and out of salvation all that time?

I mentioned this early on some place. God is looking at the big picture. Do you love God more than sin. Many try and make it come down to one moment. But as I said Jesus is judging if we really have/will give all to him. But thats very different from saying we are in correct relationship with God while being in known sin. To choose to commit known sin you are pushing God away. You are willfully choosing to rebel against God and do that sin.

[Sulla]

Quote:

So it wasn't a matter of going in and out of salvation. I never had it during those years. I wanted it but I was unwilling to give up ALL my sins to Jesus. Would I have been saved if I had died during that time? Not if the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are right.

So then we come to the question would God have let you be killed if he knew you would repent later. I know someplace Ellen White tales someone God kept Satan from taking their life for exactly this reason.

[LifeHiscost]

So the man sinning under law stands condemned, but the man sinning under grace does not stand condemned. Rob

For the first time I think I clearly understand where you're coming from Robert.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

You believe that since you have found little or no victory over sin in your life, that it is the lot of all professed believers that they must live life subject to falling into whatever they are tempted by, with no relief from sinful conduct until at last delivered from this sinful world of darkness.

Wish I had time to pursue this further but my eyelids won't stay open. You have a promise you can still rely on if you are not trying to deliberately mislead anyone.

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." Luke 23:34 KJV

OTOH, much reward seems to be jeopardized.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19 KJV

Regards!

[guibox]

If it's true that Jesus' sacrifice does not cover known sins that have not yet been asked for forgiveness for, does not not mean that we must dip in and out of salvation quite often?

[Woody]

Thanks Guibox. If I hear what you are saying correctly ....

Even the good works of God and the Holy Spirit in our lives ... are as filthy rags towards our salvation. WHY? Because our salvation is not based upon the number of good works that might be done in our lives ... but instead ... our Salvation is based wholely on the good works and life of Jesus 2,000 years ago.

Am I close?

[Robert]

We're saved because we truly accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. That requires total surrender of our whole lives to Him. It's not an intellectual belief, but a belief that results in obedience and choosing God's will over our own.

But there's still self-seeking, self-love and selfishness in your life. Apparently you have not surrendered all to God and therefore, according to your own theology, you remain in an unsaved condition!

[Robert]

Quote:

So it wasn't a matter of going in and out of salvation. I never had it during those years. I wanted it but I was unwilling to give up ALL my sins to Jesus. Would I have been saved if I had died during that time? Not if the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are right.

So then we come to the question would God have let you be killed if he knew you would repent later. I know someplace Ellen White tales someone God kept Satan from taking their life for exactly this reason.

This is bad theology. It's called yo-yo salvation. Your out, your in....

The truth is Jesus takes you where you are at. The moment you confess Him...the moment you accept Him...you stand complete in Him by faith.

[Taylor]

Originally Posted By: John317

We're saved because we truly accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. That requires total surrender of our whole lives to Him. It's not an intellectual belief, but a belief that results in obedience and choosing God's will over our own.

But there's still self-seeking, self-love and selfishness in your life. Apparently you have not surrendered all to God and therefore, according to your own theology, you remain in an unsaved condition!

Ok I can't answere for John but I couldn't let this one go by. Just because you gave everything to God doesn't mean you aren't growing. You are growing and you will be forever growing even in heaven. There won't be sin in heaven, that is true, but here on this earth, our very natures make it so we even sin "accidently" without realizing it. And becuase of our past sins...it can take us a while to even understand that a particular sin is a sin....and it might take several hard falls for us to realize how ugly that sin is. We have a lot of growing to do, a lot of past scars to overcome, a lot of pain that clouds our vision, a lot of life experiences that tints the glasses, a lot of hard knocks to learn things. But God is all powerful and if we trust him he will refine our characters...but refining takes time.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

We're saved because we truly accept God's offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. That requires total surrender of our whole lives to Him. It's not an intellectual belief, but a belief that results in obedience and choosing God's will over our own.

But there's still self-seeking, self-love and selfishness in your life. Apparently you have not surrendered all to God and therefore, according to your own theology, you remain in an unsaved condition!

Good Point Rob.

[Robert]

our very natures make it so we even sin "accidently" without realizing it.

Sin is sin....

[Taylor]

Exactly that is why Jesus came to save us from our sins by

1. Helping us grow more and more into his likeness

2. covering for our ignorance, forgiving our mistakes and willfulness, and our unintentional sins

3. saving us by grace alone.

[Sulla]

Really I dont think there is any more to be said on this topic. I have seen no new proofs coming out so is all just peoples ideas now. And we I hope can agree its not our job to force others to believe as we do but to present the facts.

[Woody]

Really I dont think there is any more to be said on this topic. I have seen no new proofs coming out so is all just peoples ideas now. And we I hope can agree its not our job to force others to believe as we do but to present the facts.

There are very few 'facts'. Mostly we have to go by feelings. You can say that the Sabbath is a fact. But others will have different interpretations (feelings) on the issue. The bottom line is that we have to go by our individual interpretations. These are based on feelings and personal experiences. Do not discount feelings. The only other option is to be arrogant.

My truth is not necessarily your truth. What we need is tolerance and patience to allow the Holy Spirit to do the convicting. And it is not always necessary for the Holy Spirit to convict one of all aspects of truth at the moment you might think.

When one says they have the 'facts' ... or 'truth' ... they are just being arrogant.

[Taylor]

Really I dont think there is any more to be said on this topic. I have seen no new proofs coming out so is all just peoples ideas now. And we I hope can agree its not our job to force others to believe as we do but to present the facts.

I have never ever been one to force anyone to believe what I believe. I firmly believe that people need to use their heads, be led by the H.S. and study things for themselves. We should also never judge people.

[Woody]

Good Point Taylor.

You know ... God wants us to come to Him based upon FAITH ... not PROOF. This is a very improtant 'fact' that we should be aware of !!!

[LifeHiscost]

Answer: Because of their position "in Christ" they stood absolutely righteous.

My point?

Without Christ you are wicked, but "in Christ" you are righteous. So the man sinning under law stands condemned, but the man sinning under grace does not stand condemned. The law can't touch him because "in Christ" he died the death that it requires. He died to sin in the body of Christ.

Was there a problem here? Yes! Did it need correcting? Yes. So what Paul is saying it that the wicked...the ungodly...the unbeliever doesn't stand a chance. But the believer is in a different light. They were swindling, yet Paul says that is what some of you were. Couldn't Paul see? Yes, but he saw them "in Christ Jesus".

Yes, they need to mature and bring glory to God, then needed to repent. But nevertheless they were sinless "in Christ Jesus".

Rob

Very similar theology as David Koresh. It will follow the same path to the end.

"I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3 KJV

Regards!