Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[pnattmbtc]

Not even by Christ?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

We must be talking about two different persons. The God I know is the kindest, most loving, most merciful, most just Being in the whole universe.

I don't doubt that. I don't happen to believe that its the god described in the Bible.

"I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have continued my faithfulness to you." Jer 31:3 ESV

The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Ex 34:6,7 ESV

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. Jn 3:16 ESV

God is still yearning for your soul, Richard. There is no hope in atheism. There is only darkness. God offers you life.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Instead of living to gain wealth, in heaven we will live so that our neighbors might have wealth. And they us.... No one lives for himself....The early church gave a glimpse of this in Acts chapters 2 & 4.

But since you consider commandment-keepers to be under bondage, surely you can understand how we could fail. But you, you claim to have the assurance of salvation that frees you to live a selfless life. Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you giving away all your possessions?

[Just*]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. Gal 2:21

---------

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

And ye are complete in him Col 2:10

God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom 4:6

his faith is counted for righteousness. Rom 4:5

[cardw]

Quote:

The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children’s children, to the third and the fourth generation.” Ex 34:6,7 ESV

This hardly comforting since according to the Bible we are all guilty and since no one is clear about how we are to be saved I think most of us can look forward to this god visiting iniquity on to the following 4 generations, which is not an expression of justice or love. This is a crazy god.

Quote:

God is still yearning for your soul, Richard. There is no hope in atheism. There is only darkness. God offers you life.

Atheism is not a thing to have hope in at all. It is simply an admission that one does not believe in gods. I'm actually an agnostic, which allows for a lot of hope. To me, the god of the bible only brings despair because that god needs to be appeased by blood sacrifice, which I find totally abhorrent. To me that's a god of darkness, not light.

[Robert]

Quote:

Instead of living to gain wealth, in heaven we will live so that our neighbors might have wealth. And they us.... No one lives for himself....The early church gave a glimpse of this in Acts chapters 2 & 4.

But since you consider commandment-keepers to be under bondage, surely you can understand how we could fail. But you, you claim to have the assurance of salvation that frees you to live a selfless life. Why aren't you doing it? Why aren't you giving away all your possessions?

Selfless acts (fruit) is different from being totally selfless....

[Robert]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

Good!

[phkrause]

Cardw

I think most of us can look forward to this god visiting iniquity on to the following 4 generations, which is not an expression of justice or love.

I don't believe that its talking about God blaming us for what are greatgreatgreatgreat grand parents did. Its that what they did, like: drug abuse, alcohol abuse, etc. Things that we do now effect our children, and on down the line for a number of generations. There now finding out that if your parent was a alcoholic that you will have a propensity to that. If one of your parents died of a heart attack, so can you if eating the same lousy way. If one of your parents was a drug addict you will have a propensity to being one also. My daughter who has been on some very addicting prescribed drugs got pregnant. (she had been on them for many years) They told her that she could not just stop taking them. So they told her she needed to get weened (sp) off of them. So they started tapering her off of them to fast and it made her sick, so they than told her that they were more concerned with her than the baby. So they stopped tapering her off and said to do this after she had the baby. She can not breast feed because of these drugs. And they told her that the baby would have to go through withdrawals when born but would be OK. Well we are finding out the baby is not OK. We see him struggle every day because of her actions. This is what that verse you quoted is really saying, not that God punishes us for what are parents have done. This is a direct result of what our parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and so forth down the line, or up the line, have done.

pk

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Just*

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

Good!

And these are bad?

"For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Rom 2:13 ESV.

"Neither do I condemn you; go, and from now on sin no more.” Jn 8:11 ESV

"If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” Mt 19:17 ESV

[Just*]

"Therefore, although "the doers of the law shall be justified," it is just as evident that "by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Verse 20."

E. J. Waggoner

Christ and His Righteousness

"Therefore whoever is justified, or made righteous at all, must be made righteous by faith alone, wholly apart from the deeds of the law. This is of universal application. It means that justification, first, last, and all the time, is by faith alone. The Christian can not be justified by works any more than the sinner can be. No man can ever get so good and strong that his own deeds can justify him."

E.J. Waggoner

on Romans

[pnattmbtc]

To me, the god of the bible only brings despair because that god needs to be appeased by blood sacrifice, which I find totally abhorrent.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's an Ellen White comment on this subject:

Quote:

While God has desired to teach men that from His own love comes the Gift which reconciles them to Himself, the archenemy of mankind has endeavored to represent God as one who delights in their destruction. Thus the sacrifices and the ordinances designed of Heaven to reveal divine love have been perverted to serve as means whereby sinners have vainly hoped to propitiate, with gifts and good works, the wrath of an offended God.(PK 685)

[hfsturges]

Is it possible to live without sinning? Of course it is. I last sinned May 18, 1980. A whole mountain blew up when that happened!

well . . . . seriously, when is the last time you picked someone's pocket? or swore in church? or bowed down and worshiped your car? or took your secretary for a weekend in Reno?

You see! We all keep the ten commandments, at least on a superficial level. But what did Jesus say to the lawyer? He said the two great commandments were love to God and love to fellow man.

Lacking love to God you are left in unbelief and pride. Lacking love to fellow man you are selfish. We cannot change those motives. These are what make up the sinful nature. And it is these that we cannot escape except for the grace of God. We will even do wonderful kind things for selfish motives.

So, what to do?

Carefully read 1 John 1:6-10. Follow the logic through these verses. You will find that you are a sinner. You must confess your sin and repent, and then be cleansed. But you can never claim that you are sinless. There is more -- read it.

Then Hebrews 12:2 says that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of your faith.

Bottom line: you must trust in Jesus. He will make it his business to "finish your faith." Is it possible to live without sinning? Wrong question. That is none of your business. (to throw a monkey wrench into the gears, read also 1 John 3:3,6,7,9,)

[John317]

Is it possible to live without sinning?

A better and more practical question, particularly for SDAs, who believe God has raised them up to proclaim the Third Angels Messages: Is it possible to obey God's commandments?

See 1 John 2: 1-6; Rev. 12: 17; 14: 12.

[cardw]

Quote:

And they told her that the baby would have to go through withdrawals when born but would be OK. Well we are finding out the baby is not OK. We see him struggle every day because of her actions. This is what that verse you quoted is really saying, not that God punishes us for what are parents have done. This is a direct result of what our parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and so forth down the line, or up the line, have done.

That's a very nice observation and is probably true, but that's not what the text says. It says that god will visit these effects down through the generations.

That's the problem with the Bible. It seems like it would be pretty simple for an all powerful God to at least edit the book to make sure its clear on a number of very significant issues. Since this doesn't appear to be true, it becomes quite clear that the Bible is the work of men.

[cardw]

Quote:

Why do you think this? I know of many Scriptures (Psalms, Amos, and Micha, Hebrews come immediately to mind) where say that God is not pleased by blood, but that the sacrifice acceptable to God is a clear heart, etc. I know of no Scripture which says that God is appeased by blood. Is it simply the fact that sacrifices existed at all that gave you this idea?

Let me put it this way. Could we be forgiven by god without Jesus dying on the cross?

It's pretty much the elephant in the room.

[John317]

Allah of the Koran forgives without blood. The Bible, however, teaches that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness. Why the difference? Why is blood necessary?

[John317]

Quote:

And they told her that the baby would have to go through withdrawals when born but would be OK. Well we are finding out the baby is not OK. We see him struggle every day because of her actions. This is what that verse you quoted is really saying, not that God punishes us for what are parents have done. This is a direct result of what our parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and so forth down the line, or up the line, have done.

That's a very nice observation and is probably true, but that's not what the text says. It says that god will visit these effects down through the generations.

Why would God make the world in this way, so that we can have this affect on our children and descendants?

Why didn't God design it so that people can only have positive affects on their descendants?

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Why do you think this? I know of many Scriptures (Psalms, Amos, and Micha, Hebrews come immediately to mind) where say that God is not pleased by blood, but that the sacrifice acceptable to God is a clear heart, etc. I know of no Scripture which says that God is appeased by blood. Is it simply the fact that sacrifices existed at all that gave you this idea?

Let me put it this way. Could we be forgiven by God without Jesus dying on the cross?

It's pretty much the elephant in the room.

[skyblue888]

The life of Christ was not the price paid to the father for our pardon; but the life was the price which the Father paid to so manifest his loving power as to bring us to that repentant attitude of mind where he could pardon us freely. (God is Love by George Fifield)

That is very true but it was still necessary for Christ to die for the guilty, to shed His blood. The broken law demanded the death (eternal death) of the sinner. Christ took our place and was treated as we deserve that we might be treated as He deserves. See D.A.25. That through the merits of His blood, men might be reconciled to God.

Did someonte quote these words: "... Without shedding of blood, there is no remission." Heb.9:22.

sky

[Woody]

Did someonte quote these words: "... Without shedding of blood, there is no remission." Heb.9:22.

sky

Hey ... this is good stuff Sky. I appreciate it. I have noticed so many of your posts stating that we are saved by our works ... this is a pleasant refrain from Salvation by Works.

[skyblue888]

ah! I have never ever stated anywhere on this forum or any other forum that we are saved by our good works or by the merits of our works. On the contrary I have kept quoting these very words:

"Works without faith are dead and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us. It is the merit of Christ that will avail in our behalf." E. G. White, Faith and Works, p.48.

Good works are the fruit of faith but they are not the basis for our salvation. God will reward the faithful for the works that He Himself by His Spirit will have enabled them to do but these works is not what will save them. "The merits of a crucified and risen Saviour are the foundation of the Christian's faith." The Great Controversy, p.73.

sky

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

The answer to your question is that God was perfectly able and willing to pardon us without Christ's having to die, but we were not able to accept His pardon with the revelation that Christ gave of the Father (not just in His death, but throughout His life, although His death was the clearest revelation of God's character and love).

I don't think you can provide any Scripture or SOP to back that statement. There is a controversy involved as well here. God could not pardon and would not pardon man without Christ dying because He is a just God. And the wages of sin is death. Pardon or justification clears the repentant sinner from the death penalty.

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

Sincerely,

Norman

[Woody]

Wow !! I'm glad that you've been converted. Praise God.

But then 'truth' on this forum has gone out the window.

So whatever you have said ... does not really matter.

[cardw]

Quote:

The answer to your question is that God was perfectly able and willing to pardon us without Christ's having to die, but we were not able to accept His pardon with the revelation that Christ gave of the Father (not just in His death, but throughout His life, although His death was the clearest revelation of God's character and love).

I can assure you that no one needs to go through the torture of being killed on the cross for me to accept their forgiveness. And anyone who comes up with the idea that torturing themselves and dying a cruel death is the highest expression of love is really a sick person.

Quote:

God could not pardon and would not pardon man without Christ dying because He is a just God. And the wages of sin is death. Pardon or justification clears the repentant sinner from the death penalty.

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

If god needs justice, then there is no such thing as forgiveness. God isn't forgiving sins at all. He is simply transferring the punishment.

The idea that there is some kind of law that even God is accountable to basically denies that there is a God.

I see no difference with this reasoning. In both cases God or God's justice needs to be appeased.