Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[olger]

Extra Amen from

oG

[Robert]

Not necessarily, Robert. It could be one is concerned with other things, like the honor and glory of Christ, or helping others, so that one doesn't think about it.

Fully false! "Having been justified by faith with have peace with God"....That's assurance, without it everything one does is for acceptance, which is legalism....

[Robert]

It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him.

Fear of punishment...as in not being good enough...not measuring up to the law. Or thinking you are and hence expecting a reward....Both egocentric concerns.....Assurance frees you to actually do selfless works....

[Guest]

I'm glad you know all this stuff Robert, I hope that come judgment day, God thinks as much of your great knowledge as you seem to.

[cardw]

Fear of punishment...as in not being good enough...not measuring up to the law. Or thinking you are and hence expecting a reward....Both egocentric concerns.....Assurance frees you to actually do selfless works....

And so does being an atheist.

[cardw]

I'm glad you know all this stuff Robert, I hope that come judgment day, God thinks as much of your great knowledge as you seem to.

Apparently God rewards ignorance.

Now this dialog is up to 20 pages and it seems that no one is any closer to understanding how belief in Christianity makes anyone a better person. This debate is centuries old and Christian theology has completely failed to provide a definitive answer. The solution is now over 40,000 different versions of Christian belief, all claiming how "simple" it is.

Richard, you asked me awhile back about the debate over whether Robert is saved or not and this statement seems to imply that you have some inside knowledge about what God thinks about Robert.

It seems to me that your opinion of your knowledge places you at the right hand of God Himself. It's pretty hard to top that kind of arrogance. LOL

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

It is not the fear of punishment, or the hope of everlasting reward, that leads the disciples of Christ to follow Him.

Fear of punishment...as in not being good enough...not measuring up to the law. Or thinking you are and hence expecting a reward....Both egocentric concerns.....Assurance frees you to actually do selfless works....

Since you seem to have that absolute assurance which you say frees a person to do selfless works, have you given all your goodies to your neighbor yet?

[Woody]

Quote:

Since you seem to have that absolute assurance which you say frees a person to do selfless works, have you given all your goodies to your neighbor yet?

But Gerry ... it's only your religion that requires such. I don't believe that Robert's requires all those good works.

[Gerr]

But he says such assurance frees him to do selfless works such as giving all his goodies to his neighbor. If he is not doing it, then perhaps he's not as free as he thinks he is?

I know you are in his amen corner, but why not let him respond instead?

[Just*]

Fully false! "Having been justified by faith with have peace with God"....That's assurance, without it everything one does is for acceptance, which is legalism....

Amen

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph 3:11-12

[John317]

Apparently God rewards ignorance.

Now this dialog is up to 20 pages and it seems that no one is any closer to understanding how belief in Christianity makes anyone a better person. This debate is centuries old and Christian theology has completely failed to provide a definitive answer. The solution is now over 40,000 different versions of Christian belief, all claiming how "simple" it is.

And it just so happens that all this verifies exactly what you believed all along, right? Seriously, could there have been any other conclusion?

[John317]

Quote:

Since you seem to have that absolute assurance which you say frees a person to do selfless works, have you given all your goodies to your neighbor yet?

But Gerry ... it's only your religion that requires such. I don't believe that Robert's requires all those good works.

I don't think Gerry's religion requires him to give all his "goodies" to his neighbor. But Robert has said many times before that he believes Christ wants believers to give away all their possessions. Maybe he has changed his mind on this point, but there were times when he argued in that way.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Apparently God rewards ignorance.

Now this dialog is up to 20 pages and it seems that no one is any closer to understanding how belief in Christianity makes anyone a better person. This debate is centuries old and Christian theology has completely failed to provide a definitive answer. The solution is now over 40,000 different versions of Christian belief, all claiming how "simple" it is.

And it just so happens that all this verifies exactly what you believed all along, right? Seriously, could there have been any other conclusion?

In my experience, when something verifies a belief, it makes it more likely that its true. With your method, how you interpret the Bible, rather than reality is your verification.

I fail to see how observation and verification are a bad thing.

[Gerr]

When I observe the stars above, Richard, they verify to me the existence of an Almighty Creator.

When I observe my own hands, they verify the hands of a Mighty God.

When I observe hearts moved with compassion for the unfortunate, they verify the heart of a Creator who loves me.

To deny God is to deny all that my senses and mind tell me.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Since you seem to have that absolute assurance which you say frees a person to do selfless works, have you given all your goodies to your neighbor yet?

But Gerry ... it's only your religion that requires such. I don't believe that Robert's requires all those good works.

I don't think Gerry's religion requires him to give all his "goodies" to his neighbor. But Robert has said many times before that he believes Christ wants believers to give away all their possessions. Maybe he has changed his mind on this point, but there were times when he argued in that way.

Well John ... you are prolific at speaking for others. My experience with you speaking for me ... has shown me that your perceptions are totally wrong. And when told they misrepresent my views ... you laugh it off and continue to misrepresent. So, why would I believe it when you speak for others?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Fully false! "Having been justified by faith with have peace with God"....That's assurance, without it everything one does is for acceptance, which is legalism....

Amen

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord: In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him. Eph 3:11-12

[cardw]

When I observe the stars above, Richard, they verify to me the existence of an Almighty Creator.

When I observe my own hands, they verify the hands of a Mighty God.

When I observe hearts moved with compassion for the unfortunate, they verify the heart of a Creator who loves me.

To deny God is to deny all that my senses and mind tell me.

I admit that these things are sources of wonder, but there is absolutely no evidence that these can be attributed to the god described in the Bible.

To me it is far more honest to admit that I don't know, rather than try and explain how a rather ruthless and capricious god, as described in the Bible, made all of this in 6 days about 6000 years ago. And then explain how a talking snake ruined it for everyone and how this same god decided that he had to send himself down to sacrifice himself to himself to prevent himself from killing all of us because of rules he made up himself. Its simple too much of a stretch to be believable to me.

[Gerr]

We must be talking about two different persons. The God I know is the kindest, most loving, most merciful, most just Being in the whole universe.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

Since you seem to have that absolute assurance which you say frees a person to do selfless works, have you given all your goodies to your neighbor yet?

But Gerry ... it's only your religion that requires such. I don't believe that Robert's requires all those good works.

I don't think Gerry's religion requires him to give all his "goodies" to his neighbor. But Robert has said many times before that he believes Christ wants believers to give away all their possessions. Maybe he has changed his mind on this point, but there were times when he argued in that way.

You are incorrect....I have always maintained that if we lived a life of selflessness we wouldn't have this bent to self. Instead we are self-seeking and have self-interests. This is based on Lucifer's love of self and is the very opposite to God's agape love, a love which is not self-seeking.

You will have that love which seeks not her own [wealth], but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't think Gerry's religion requires him to give all his "goodies" to his neighbor. But Robert has said many times before that he believes Christ wants believers to give away all their possessions. Maybe he has changed his mind on this point, but there were times when he argued in that way. [/quote']

You are incorrect....I have always maintained that if we lived a life of selflessness we wouldn't have this bent to self. Instead we are self-seeking and have self-interests. This is based on Lucifer's love of self and is the very opposite to God's agape love, a love which is not self-seeking.

It's a tautology that if we lived a life of selflessness, we wouldn't be self-centered.

But the question is, do you believe that Jesus commands us literally to give away our possessions to the poor?

[Gerr]

You're whistling a different tune. What you said was that if a believer had assurance, he/she would be free to be selfless.

[Robert]

It's a tautology that if we lived a life of selflessness, we wouldn't be self-centered.

But the question is, do you believe that Jesus commands us literally to give away our possessions to the poor?

The question is "how did you get your goodies"? Unless it was a gift you acquired your goodies were gained through self-seeking. The more education...the more money...the more the goodies.

What Christ demands is aimed at legalists....Anyone who comes to God and says, "What good thing must I do to gain heaven" He will give them the law...the OC....Why? So that they'll give up and accept grace. But for those on the perfectionistic trip, like the RYR, Christ will demand the following:

16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?" 17 So He said to him, "Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life [see verse verse 16], keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' " 20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

[Robert]

You're whistling a different tune. What you said was that if a believer had assurance, he/she would be free to be selfless.

Here's what I said: "Assurance frees you to actually do selfless works...."

Or better yet selfless deeds. Since I have the assurance of salvation I can help the little old lady across the street not to impress some church member...not to get a star in my crown...not to get points with God, but because "I love my neighbor as myself." Her safety is my only concern....That's just an example....

Note, I did not say that I would be selfless....

[Robert]

I don't think Gerry's religion requires him to give all his "goodies" to his neighbor.

[cardw]

We must be talking about two different persons. The God I know is the kindest, most loving, most merciful, most just Being in the whole universe.

I don't doubt that. I don't happen to believe that its the god described in the Bible.