Woody Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Quote: Ellen White says that if we don't have sufficient faith to believe that God has the power to keep us from committing sin, then we don't have enough faith.... While I certainly believe there is no excuse for sin. And I would never limit God . I also don't limit His ability to save. And I also am limited in my faith in many areas. And Jesus has saved me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
pnattmbtc Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Robert, what is it you're taking issue with? Are you saying it's not possible for us, by faith in Christ, to overcome sin? What precisely is your point please? Are self-love and self-seeking in your life, or are you totally free of it? Yes, no? This isn't an answer to my questions. What is it you are taking issue with? What is your point, please? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Are you saying that you don't think the Holy Spirit uses people and their words to help people? Not all....The Judaizers thought that they were used of God....I'm sure the Pharisees thought the same. The Pope thinks he is used of God. Quote: What you say here would mean that you and people like Jack Sequeira would have to keep quiet and let the Holy Spirit guide. No' date=' I think I said, "maybe you should let the HS guide instead of trying to be our guide!" Quote: I'm not trying to guide or take the Holy Spirit's place any more than you or Jack Sequeira are. [/quote'] But someone is in error.... That's true, and his initials are JS. Please don't do this. Jack Sequeira hasn't said a thing, and nothing he's said has been quoted. Please don't say negative things about people. If you disagree with something specific Jack Sequeira has said, please quote it, and explain why you disagree with it. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Guest Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Please don't do this. Jack Sequeira hasn't said a thing, and nothing he's said has been quoted. Please don't say negative things about people. If you disagree with something specific Jack Sequeira has said, please quote it, and explain why you disagree with it. pnatt, Robert and I have already been around and around about JS. He knows excactly what I'm talking about without all that quoting you want. Besides that, it was Robert that I was addressing, not you. Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 That's true, and his initials are JS. No Sir...it is you who are in error! You teach practically the same thing as the Judaizers in Paul's day.... Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Ellen White says that if we don't have sufficient faith to believe that God has the power to keep us from committing sin, then we don't have enough faith.... Ellen White was a sinner the day she died. She wasn't perfect, neither did she establish the spirit of the law. So does that mean EGW didn't have enough faith? Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Are self-love and self-seeking in your life, or are you totally free of it? Yes, no? [/quote'] This isn't an answer to my questions. What is it you are taking issue with? What is your point, please? If it's possible then do it....Stop all self-seeking....Stop loving yourself. Instead live Christ's life of selflessness. Otherwise all you say is empty....Talking about perfection is meaningless...do it! Prove it~! Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 If you disagree with something specific Jack Sequeira has said, please quote it, and explain why you disagree with it. He attacks Jack because he is unsure of his own theology....He can't disprove Jack so he attacks.....I've seen this hundreds of times from a few on CA. Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Sequeira believes that perfection of character is possible, but should not be the focus or our attention. Yes, that is true, but he also teaches that the remnant is yet to be formed. He teaches that the 144,000 (symbolic) will reach maturity (sinless living in sinful flesh), but that this in no way is in addition to Christ's imputed righteousness [that which saves]. However, keep in mind just because that have ceased from sin their sin nature still constitutes them sinners. Until we are free from indwelling sin we can't enter heaven. In order to reflect sinless living in sinful flesh the 144,000 "earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438] In order for this to happen all earthly support and attachments must be cut off. At that time those saints will develop a faith that is unshakable. They are fully surrendered to the truth as it is "in Christ" and because of this all self-interest are vanished. However, they won't feel sinless! Keep that in mind.... Now, if you fellows think you have reach perfection let me give you a quote: "Self-love, self-interest, must perish." [EGW] And let me also remind you of the sin problem: Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) [what EGW calls "worldliness" or "earthliness"] — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). [jack] Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Let's just take "education" for an example and see how it has the "world" in it: At such a time as this, what is the trend of the education given? To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence. God’s plan of life has a place for every human being. Each is to improve his talents to the utmost; and faithfulness in doing this, be the gifts few or many, entitles one to honor. In God’s plan there is no place for selfish rivalry. Those who measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves among themselves, are not wise. 2 Corinthians 10:12. Whatever we do is to be done “as of the ability which God giveth.” 1 Peter 4:11. It is to be done “heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men; knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.” Colossians 3:23, 24. Precious the service done and the education gained in carrying out these principles. But how widely different is much of the education now given! From the child’s earliest years it is an appeal to emulation and rivalry; it fosters selfishness, the root of all evil. "There is an education which is essentially worldly. Its aim is success in the world, the gratification of selfish ambition” “Without the vital principles of true religion, without knowledge of how to serve and glorify the Redeemer, education is more harmful than beneficial.” Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 26, 2009 Author Moderators Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Ellen White says that if we don't have sufficient faith to believe that God has the power to keep us from committing sin, then we don't have enough faith.... Ellen White was a sinner the day she died. She wasn't perfect, neither did she establish the spirit of the law. So does that mean EGW didn't have enough faith? Your comment here shows that you don't fully understand what I said or what Ellen White taught on the subject. Of course she was sinner in need of a Savior when she died. So was Paul, Elisha and every other prophet of God. We keep our sinful natures until the resurrection or the second coming. Therefore the fact that we are "sinners" until the day we die doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with the topic. Here is the question: Do you believe that the grace of Christ is able to keep you from sinning? Is the Spirit-filled believer compelled to sin? Remember that Jack Sequeira believes that the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer empowers him to be able to resist every temptation to sin. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Do you believe that the grace of Christ is able to keep you from sinning? Is the Spirit-filled believer compelled to sin? The question is not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation. However, yes, if the believer could have "the faith of Jesus" and learn to fully "walk in the spirit" and therefore fully surrender, then yes.... The problem is not God's, it is our surrender....We are in a world under Lucifer's principle of self-love and self-seeking. No one is selfless, yet....No one is living according to EGW's following statement: "In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132] In this world "all" are self-seeking....They first establish their needs then maybe they help others. Christ never gave over to our self-seeking....Hence in this world He knew only poverty. If we were free of self then we too would," share his poverty." [RH 7-4-1912] This is the natural result of living selflessly in a self-seeking, egocentric world. This the last generation of Christians will experience according to Jack. I think he is right.... Quote
Woody Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Thank you Rob for making this SO clear amidst all the confusion. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Dr. Rich Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 It sure does sound right Rob---but then there still is the prophecy of the 144k who become sealed prior to the time of trouble. These truly will be those found in Rev. 12:17 Quote
LifeHiscost Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc Robert, what is it you're taking issue with? Are you saying it's not possible for us, by faith in Christ, to overcome sin? What precisely is your point please? Are self-love and self-seeking in your life, or are you totally free of it? Yes, no? " Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down."Revelation 12:10 NKJV Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 And God would have you and me allow them to speak. And God would have you and me both free to speak. I can't decide for you and you can't decide for me. Let every man and women be persuaded in his/her mind. And I have been persuaded, John, that the Holy Spirit has been using you to develop my own understanding of the Christ, without making me feel like a ball of dung, something I believe Jesus does for His children. Some of that is a result of believing that the promises of Christ for deliverance have already taken place without waiting for some time in the sky, by and by. Keep the faith. "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world."John17:15,16 KJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Are self-love and self-seeking in your life, or are you totally free of it? Yes, no? [/quote'] " Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down."Revelation 12:10 NKJV -BC- PK -TI- Prophets and Kings -CN- 47 -CT- Joshua and the Angel -PR- 02 -PG- 588 Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit....The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 without making me feel like a ball of dung Sorry, the law was designed to place the glory of men in the dust....His pride in his goodness must be placed in the dust.... Now you can deny what sin is....You can say, as does Laodicea, "'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But [says Christ] you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. Hence, Jesus did "not come to call the righteous, but sinners." He didn't come to build up pride in one's self-righteousness. The giving of the OC was to tear down one's self-esteem in his or her goodness. We are sinners, even now. Only "in Christ" do we stand complete. Quote
Robert Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Thank you Rob for making this SO clear amidst all the confusion. TU Quote
Woody Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Thank you Rob for making this SO clear amidst all the confusion. TU Yes Rob. I do appreciate your balanced approach with the use of both scripture and the SOP. Keep up the good work. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 We are sinners, even now. Only "in Christ" do we stand complete. If you wish to struggle under the burden of your sins after Jesus has promised for the confessor, to wash them away, this is your prerogative. I choose to accept Jesus at His promise. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Woody Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 Quote: I choose to accept Jesus at His promise. This would be an interesting line to follow. I would like to ask you if you have actually done this ... or are you just theoretically doing so. IOWs ... if we inquired about proof ... would it hold up. ( I am trying to say this in the most polite way I can for I fear it could easily be finger pointing which I don't care to do ... but the truth does need to be know) Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Twilight Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 I have started a new thread on this to show how. Taken from Romans... http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post301710 Enjoy. Mark Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Woody Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 How in the world would you know if LifeHiscost's life would show it? You really can't speak for his life. Again ... I wasn't referring to theory. I was referring to practical proof. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
LifeHiscost Posted November 26, 2009 Posted November 26, 2009 How in the world would you know if LifeHiscost's life would show it? You really can't speak for his life. Again ... I wasn't referring to theory. I was referring to practical proof. Because the Christan life lived correctly is a greater witness to the power of God than all the Bible thumping we can do, I would like to answer you in more detail but I choose to follow up on Mark's new thread first, with the hope of gaining some more insight for answering in a manner that extols the goodness of God's willingness and power evident, above and beyond the meager human striving that often is used in place of the workings of the Holy Spirit to reveal how good a Christian we can be. IOW theoretical religion instead of what the Bible defines as true religion. "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27 KJV Before I answer I would also like to give you a caveat from the Bible which I think answers how I believe the response to the request will be from some corners. "But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’”"Luke 16:31 NKJV Blessings! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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