Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Woody]

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Christ read her heart and knew her sorrow for sin and her repentance.

Praise God ... He does the same for you and I. For it's what's in the heart that matters.

[John317]

For sure!!!

As it says, we love because He first loved us.

[Woody]

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For sure!!!

Well ... I'm speechless.

[LifeHiscost]

Proof is not quotes from the bible. Proof requires evidence and a sound logical system of testing. The Bible does not do that. It simply contains claims.

While I admit the Holy Bible is not evidence or proof enough for you, it is for multitudes of individuals who have found the person of Jesus faithful in the promises He made as recorded in the Scriptures. Not to mention the vast number of prophecies (predictions) written approximately 500 years before Jesus was born, about Himself,

Others about nations that rose and fell just as prophesied, hundreds of years before it happened. Most events can not be determined 24 hours before they occur with any degree of reliability.

While it is true that the Prince of darkness can lead people to do things when he plans to have them happen, even that is negligible in comparison to the events being brought to pass as a direct result of the Sovereign will of necessity at a particular time.

If you would like to read a story of someone who experienced God's immediate intervention in his life over a period of about 5-6 years that reveals supernatural power being exerted on his and his families behalf necessary for preservation of life, I'd be glad to send you the story. This happened in the first half of the twentieth century, on behalf of just normal people that learned to depend on Divine care to give them life, when they knew for sure their lives would have been forfeited had they not received that care.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

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His words, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," had come to her as a death sentence. She dared not lift her eyes to the Savior's face, but silently awaited her doom.

Her response to the words of Jesus indicates she believed the same as many today believe, that there are some today who are good enough to have right to cast stones at others. Jesus knew better and that was why He was so free in setting the stage for the possible humiliation of the accusers.

"For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."Galatians 6:3 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Yes, I like Dr. Stern's translation, too. It really gives you a fresh, clear view of the Jewishness of the New Testament. Such as at Acts. 20: 7.

"You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews."John 4:22 NKJV

[cardw]

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While I admit the Holy Bible is not evidence or proof enough for you, it is for multitudes of individuals who have found the person of Jesus faithful in the promises He made as recorded in the Scriptures. Not to mention the vast number of prophecies (predictions) written approximately 500 years before Jesus was born, about Himself,

These same claims are made by millions about other gods, but you would certainly not believe them. Plus the gospels were written in a way that made up Jesus to fit all the various kinds of things required to be considered a god. This included the virgin birth, born on Dec 25, healed the sick, did miracles, etc.

All of these could have been made up after the fact to make it look like Jesus fit all kinds of prophecies both pagan and Jewish.

Sathya Sai Baba is considered to be the living manifestation of god by 6 million of his devotees and they say he has done many miracles including healing the sick. And yet you would not believe this to be true at all for no other reason than you believe in Jesus.

What makes him any different than Jesus?

What it tells us is that numbers of people who believe means nothing and is far from being proof of anything. It means that reports of miracles are very unreliable even when reported by many people. This makes it very unlikely that the gospels are accurate reports of Jesus, if Jesus even existed in the flesh at all.

[cardw]

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"For if anyone thinks himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."Galatians 6:3 NKJV

This statement could be reversed and still be true.

"For if anyone thinks himself to be nothing, when he is something, he deceives himself."

Are we really nothing?

I find it hard to believe that I am nothing when I contemplate the wonder of being a conscious being. To me, that is something unique and wonderful.

All this competition to be the most humble is ego driven. Its a sign of immaturity because its really bragging about one's spiritual superiority.

Its way too self conscious.

And that is why Christians tend to get stuck at these early levels of consciousness.

[Robert]

What Robert Wieland said is that she had 7 demons, and went to see Jesus seven times.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I just got off the phone with Jack Sequeira. Yes, it is translated correctly, i.e., "the sin". His reference is Nestles Greek Bible.

The Nestles Greek Bible is an excellent one.

Can you give any translation where John 8: 7 reads "the sin"? Did pastor Sequeira offer or suggest one?

I don't know Greek....It want help me to get to heaven....It doesn't give me an extra star in my crown. If you want to quarrel with someone on this issue call Jack. Go to his website and email him or call him.

The context is adultery....That's the sin Jesus had in mind. I'm sorry that you can't see this and insist that Jesus had placed this poor woman under a yoke of bondage.....

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

if you look at the context, she didn't even repent yet Christ said "there's no condemnation"....This didn't mean He approved of this sin, but that "in Him" she stood perfect.

Christ read her heart and knew her sorrow for sin and her repentance. Check out this great quote about Mary:

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DA 461, 462

You must use the Bible with me....EGW is not infallible.

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: John317

Christ read her heart and knew her sorrow for sin and her repentance. Check out this great quote about Mary:

Quote:

DA 461, 462

[/quote']

You must use the Bible with me....EGW is not infallible.

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

It's perfectly reasonable to request that only Scripture be used in a theological discussion, as this is how we must defend our positions to non-SDA's. However, the reason for your request here seems odd. You first state that Ellen White is not infallible. So your point is, "Since the Bible is infallible, and Ellen White isn't, only use the Bible in discussing things with me."? And then you quote Ellen White. Why? To establish that she agrees with you?

So you have two points, apparently:

1.The Bible is infallible, but Ellen White isn't, so only the Bible should be used.

2.Ellen White agreed with this.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, I'm fairly familiar with Sequeira's theology. My understanding of Sequeira is:

1.He emphasizes that Christ solved a legal problem for the entire human race, by a process referred to by some as "legal justification" and others as "corporate justification." The idea is that Christ satisfied the legal debt of the entire human race. Thus not one, saint or sinner, partakes of his daily bread except by the sacrifice of Christ. All owe everything they have to the sacrifice of Christ. This sacrifice of Christ is our basis for acceptance with God, and of our assurance of salvation.

2.Justification by faith involves a heart of appreciation of the agape of God, in gratitude for what happened in step 1. When this happens, the believes is radically changed, into a follower of Christ.

3.Sequeira believes that perfection of character is possible, but should not be the focus or our attention. Rather we should focus on the agape of God, revealed through Christ.

Do you disagree with my summary here?

[Woody]

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If you look at the context the woman never even repented, yet Christ said "neither do I condemn you...." Interesting.

Rob ... you make a very good point here.

[Woody]

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You must use the Bible with me....EGW is not infallible.

Another great point Rob.

And to go even further ... our interpretation of Ellen White is even MORE flawed and totally fallible.

[pnattmbtc]

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You must use the Bible with me....EGW is not infallible.

Another great point Rob.

And to go even further ... our interpretation of Ellen White is even MORE flawed and totally fallible.

But our interpretation of the Bible is OK?

[pnattmbtc]

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If you look at the context the woman never even repented, yet Christ said "neither do I condemn you...." Interesting.

Rob ... you make a very good point here.

Yes, this is a wonderful truth. God does not condemn us! Pretty amazing.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Christ read her heart and knew her sorrow for sin and her repentance. Check out this great quote about Mary:

Quote:

DA 461, 462

You must use the Bible with me....EGW is not infallible.

Yet you have no problems with quoting her when it suits your purposes, such as showing that there will be babies and others saved who knew nothing of Christ.

Ellen White wrote about those who only believe in her when they can "use" her to support a favorite idea but then talk against her and undercut her authority as God's messenger to the church when she says things they don't approve. See 1 SM 25-40.

As for being infallible-- no human is infallible, including Jack Sequeira, whom you quote as an authority at great length; therefore, to say Ellen White is not infallible seems to me to be irrelevant.

[LifeHiscost]

It doesn't give me an extra star in my crown.

Rob

The stars in the crown are representing people who are in the kingdom who we have been instrumental, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in helping to make decisions for Christ. God says He will honor those who honor Him. I'm sure one purpose of God is to give as many stars as possible in the crowns of those He chooses to enrich for eternity, as a result of their effort on earth to be used with His efforts to save the children for which He died.

All who wish to ensure they have no stars in their crown, have that right.

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Romans 2:6-9 KJV

Regards!

[Woody]

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But our interpretation of the Bible is OK?

The Bible we KNOW is inspired. However ... not all of what Ellen White ever spoke or wrote was inspired. Some of what she wrote ... was just Ellen The Person instead of Ellen the prophet.

[cardw]

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The stars in the crown are representing people who are in the kingdom who we have been instrumental, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, in helping to make decisions for Christ. God says He will honor those who honor Him.

The downside is that with all those stars in your crown you're going to have neck problems.

[pnattmbtc]

That reminded me of this:

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Morrison, in his belittling the Spirit of Prophecy, would reason that not all that Ellen G. White said was inspired. When she said, "I saw," all right; but otherwise, she is not inspired any more than other people’s utterances. "Is ‘pass the potatoes’ inspired, simply because she would say so?" he would ask.

This was from an interview of J. S. Washburn regarding 1888. (http://www.gospel-herald.com/j_s_washburn/interview.htm).

It's an interesting interview. Anyway, this comment always struck me as humorous.

This is from http://www.whiteestate.org/books/pay/PAYc21.html

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Sister White is not the originator of these books. They contain the instruction that during her lifework God has been giving her. They contain the precious, comforting light that God has graciously given His servant to be given to the world.—Colporteur Ministry, page 125.

The volumes of Spirit of Prophecy [forerunners of the Conflict of the Ages Series], and also the Testimonies, should be introduced into every Sabbathkeeping family, and the brethren should know their value and be urged to read them…. Many are going directly contrary to the light which God has given to His people, because they do not read the books which contain the light and knowledge in cautions, reproofs, and warnings.”—Testimonies, vol. 4, PP. 390, 391.

And now, brethren, I entreat you not to interpose between me and the people, and turn away the light which God would have come to them. Do not by your criticisms take out all the force, all the point and power, from the Testimonies. Do not feel that you can dissect them to suit your own ideas, claiming that God has given you ability to discern what is light from heaven and what is the expression of mere human wisdom. If the Testimonies speak not according to the word of God, reject them. Christ and Belial cannot be united. For Christ's sake do not confuse the minds of the people with human sophistry and skepticism, and make of none effect the work that the Lord would do. Do not, by your lack of spiritual discernment, make of this agency of God a rock of offense whereby many shall be caused to stumble and fall, ‘and be snared, and be taken.’—Testimonies, vol. 5, P. 691.

Articles. “I do not write one article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision—the precious rays of light shining from the throne.—Ibid., p. 67.

It's an interesting read.

It appears there's some room for ambiguity as to whether her writings are inspired when she is speaking of common subjects, but when she wrote, or spoke, in a religious connotation, she was very clear that she was not speaking or writing of herself. Of course, one is free to reject her office as a prophet, but not knowing whether or not something she wrote is inspired or not doesn't really fly as a reason to not consider what she wrote.

[Robert]

As for being infallible-- no human is infallible, including Jack Sequeira, whom you quote as an authority at great length; therefore, to say Ellen White is not infallible seems to me to be irrelevant.

Jack has more light than EGW....He is Bible based....I've had it with EGW's limited light....You stay in the past...I'll move forward....

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

As for being infallible-- no human is infallible, including Jack Sequeira, whom you quote as an authority at great length; therefore, to say Ellen White is not infallible seems to me to be irrelevant.

Jack has more light than EGW....He is Bible based....I've had it with EGW's limited light....

Are you sure Jack would agree with you on that?

I know from reading Jack's books that his talks and writings are full of Ellen White quotes, and I can't imagine his doing that if he didn't believe her to be Bible-based and a woman with great light from God. He's convinced Ellen White was a true prophet of God.

Before you can move beyond Ellen White's "limited light," it's necessary to first accept the "small light" God was pleased to show her.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jack has more light than EGW....He is Bible based....I've had it with EGW's limited light....[/quote']

Are you sure Jack would agree with you on that?

I know from reading Jack's books that his talks and writings are full of Ellen White quotes, and I can't imagine his doing that if he didn't believe her to be Bible-based and a woman with great light from God. He's convinced Ellen White was a true prophet of God.

Before you can move beyond Ellen White's "limited light," it's necessary to first accept the "small light" God was pleased to show her.

Jack specializes in Paul's epistles. Paul has more light then Ellen. In fact Ellen (if you would pay attention) said: "He [God] has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]." Then she says, "We [i.e., EGW & the SDA church] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us."[1SM 401]