Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

I was curious about this too. In addition to looking at every English translation I could find, I also looked at Spanish, Portuguese, Italian, French and Russian (which didn't help, since Russian doesn't have articles), and could find any in any of these languages either that translated it "the sin."

I'll talk with Jack Sequeira....I can't find it in his notes....He knows Greek, etc....I don't, but the nice thing is common sense prevails. The bottom line is Christ doesn't expect perfection. That's why He came and lived & died for us...

What did he mean when he said this, was it just a slip of the tongue?

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Are you disagreeing with the idea that the robe of Christ's righteousness includes both imputed and imparted righteousness.

It's not partially by what Christ does in us (imparted) and partially what He did 2000 years ago in our humanity (imputed). IT's 100% what He did 2000 years ago (imputed) that constitutes the robe of His righteousness.

Where is that in the Bible?

The Author of this spiritual life is unseen, and the exact method by which that life is imparted and sustained, it is beyond the power of human philosophy to explain. Yet the operations of the Spirit are always in harmony with the written word. {AA 284]

The attributes of the character of Christ are imparted, and the image of the Divine begins to shine forth. The faces of men and women who walk and work with God express the peace of heaven. {AH 535}

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No...it was 15 years ago...but even then if that Bible is wrong it doesn't matter. The context is about adultery and that's the sin Jesus had in mind when He said "go and sin no more"

Rob

How do you know what Jesus had in mind?

The context...otherwise Jesus' statement, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest" would be meaningless.

The Jews were in bondage to the law. If Jesus were giving the woman caught in adultery law then there would be "condemnation", but instead we see grace - "neither do I condemn you." The law doesn't forgive...it demands obedience and death to those who can't fully comply. So for Jesus to mean stop sinning would be the same as "you shall be perfect, even as God is perfect."

Are you perfect as God is perfect? No? Then why would Jesus insist that this harlot, a woman heavily controlled by her lower nature, be as perfect as God?

Rob

[Robert]

What did he mean when he said this, was it just a slip of the tongue?

Mat 5:48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

He meant be perfect as God is perfect! Are you? Let me answer: "There is none righteous, no, not even one."

In Matthew chapter five Jesus is speaking both to His disciples and the great multitude. The Jews were heavily steeped in legalism. Even in the time of Christ the Jews still thought that they could gain heaven by law. So in order to try and break them of their law-pride Jesus expanded on the law. He ended by saying, "You shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

[Guest]

I agree that the law can't save you.....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

It's not partially by what Christ does in us (imparted) and partially what He did 2000 years ago in our humanity (imputed). IT's 100% what He did 2000 years ago (imputed) that constitutes the robe of His righteousness.

Where is that in the Bible?

There are many' date=' but I'll give you one:

Hebrews 10:5 "When Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me....

At the incarnation Jesus assumed the same humanity that we receive from Adam. This humanity is our body. He assumed it in order to redeem us....

...9 Then he said, "Here I am, I have come to do your will." He sets aside the first to establish the second.

Legally speaking, Jesus brought the OC to an end, yet we know that folks today are still in bondage to the law. God's will for Christ was to save the human race.

10 And by that will [by Christ's doing & dying'], we have been made holy [past historical tense] through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Did you get that? "Once and for all"! Through Christ "we have been made holy"! Can you add to his perfect imputed righteousness? Can you improve on it? If so then Christ's doing and dying wasn't complete and therefore you must add to that righteousness.

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

But if he is truly justified and sanctified, the thief will become a former thief, and will no longer be committing the sin of stealing. If he continues the practice of stealing-- allowing sin to continue to reign as king in his life-- it is proof that His repentance was not genuine. The Holy Spirit in the thief's life will bring about a change. He will separate that sin from his life, and then as he continues in his walk with Christ, he will go on separating other sins from his life as the Holy Spirit brings conviction to his heart and empowering him to live for God. He's no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness. Study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6 and Romans 6-8.

Well thought out and written post, John317. My problem lies in the thought that yours truly sometimes allows weariness to cloud the mind and finds it difficult to determine between "this isn't bad" and "I'm just tired of struggling".

However I'm referring a lot to the position of "without flaw" as opposed to deliberate licentiousness.

I rely heavily upon the knowledge of Jesus' love and patience (grace).

"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever--" John 14:16 AMP

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous"

1 John 2:1 KJV

"And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not."

Galatians 6:9 KJV

Blessings!

[Robert]

I agree that the law can't save you.....

Right....Because the law, which is spiritual also, demands perfect, unblemished obedience! One sin...one sinful thought, however innocent it might seem, brings the curse.

I think a better question is can we escape temptation if we surrender to the Spirit? Sure....

That's what Romans 7 is all about. The man of 7 doesn't enjoy sin. He loves God's law according to the inward man, but yet he constantly meets with defeat. Why? Because he is trying to use his converted mind, where the Spirit has written the law, to defeat human nature.

The only way he can make progress is to yield his converted mind to "the law of the Spirit" and then he can experience victory over human nature. But keep in mind that human nature never changes....As long as you live it will bug you....You can grow, but I'm not so sure this side of eternity we will be sinless in performance (i.e., sinless living in sinful flesh).

Now maybe the last generation of Christians during the time of Jacob's trouble will fully mature? After all it does say "they love not their lives even unto death." Keep in mind these folks have lost it all...family, friends, jobs....And the enemies of the gospel are out to murder them.

At this time I suppose they will be totally dependent upon God for everything. Hence it is possible that these folks might fully reflect Christ, yet I doubt if they will realize it....

Not that I am big on EGW, but in speaking of the last generation of Christians she stated, “Their earthliness must be removed that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected.” [4SP 438]

What does this "earthliness" refer to? It means "worldliness"

Turn to 1 John 2:15 Do not love the world [the principle of the world under Lucifer its god] or anything in the world [anything produced by the world]. ... For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world."

We are born with self-centered, egocentric, boastful natures. By nature we love to be the center of attention. We love to be # 1...we love to be around those who are # 1. We love to shine....In fact everything in world, be it sports, education, politics, etc, are all built on the love of self (self-seeking).

In order to have all "earthliness" removed (in my mind) we must lose it all....Only then can we truly become totally dependent upon God. Hence, the last generation loved not their lives even unto death." So yes, maybe the last generation will fully reflect Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: John317

Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." He wouldn't have said that if she couldn't possibly stop sinning.

Jesus wasn't telling her to be blameless...not even the Holy Spirit points out every unknown sin. Why would Jesus load her down with perfectionism? Answer: He wouldn't!

A good version has the definite article "the" before "sin". "The sin" refers to sexual sins or more specifically "adultery" (prostitution, etc). He was telling her to leave her life of sexual sins....

Rob

So your conjecturing, Robert, that Jesus really said, "Go and do not sin the sin of sexual sin" as opposed to what the Scripture says, which your conclusion really infers that Jesus said also, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop, especially the little ones."

That, of course, would mean this Word has no relevance either.

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10 KJV

Just in case you wish to plead context, the above Scripture defines a principle that is perpetual for all circumstances except perhaps this one.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."James 4:17 KJV

And I'm not sure about it, for even unknown sin leads to acceptance of further indiscretions.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

False! It's only imputed....What we experience is imparted, but this isn't what saves.

Assuming that to be true that would mean this isn't necessary for salvation either.

" Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"1 Corinthians 15:51

KJV

It seems a lot of Scripture must be eliminated in order to sustain the above underlined belief. Perhaps to say that time is of the essence might allow us to keep all of the Holy Bible as opposed to selected Scripture being cut out.

Regards!

[Guest]

Amen Life!

[LifeHiscost]

Saving people from their sins saves them from death.

Praise God! The only acceptable characteristic for eternal life.

And that eternal life begins here in the adversary's domain.

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."1 John 5:11,12 KJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

Quote:

It's not partially by what Christ does in us (imparted) and partially what He did 2000 years ago in our humanity (imputed). IT's 100% what He did 2000 years ago (imputed) that constitutes the robe of His righteousness.

Beautiful. Well stated. How very true. For it's ALL about Jesus. We have been told that in the end times ... there would be those who try to belittle the sacrifice of Jesus. But He is truly our all in all. Our works are as filthy rags towards our salvation ... for His robe is ALL we need.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

"the robe of Christ's righteousness"-- includes both the imputed righteousness and the imparted righteousness of Christ.

False! It's only imputed....What we experience is imparted, but this isn't what saves.

Amen. I didn't want my statement to be confused with the dangerous theory that you were responding to. I am with you and the Bible.

[LifeHiscost]

I do believe Robert is one of those sin till Jesus comes Christians.

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt though. I don't believe him to ascribe to the belief that all will continue in deliberate, purposeful, sinful conduct. OTOH it does appear he has the belief that there remains in the human psyche,

at least till Jesus comes, uncontrollable sin.

I personally don't believe there are people before his coming that are without sin, unless of course we can say part of the Holy Scriptures are not true sometime prior to His coming. Maybe that's another thread of long discussion.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 KJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

Quote:

I personally don't believe there are people before his coming that are without sin, unless of course we can say part of the Holy Scriptures are not true sometime prior to His coming. Maybe that's another thread of long discussion.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 KJV

Well said. How true LifeHiscost. Appreciate your post.

[LifeHiscost]

The claim that the Bible is revelation of the great god of the universe not only fails in every area of evidence, it profoundly fails.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 1:1-3,14 NKJV

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near."Revelation 1:1-3 NKJV

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."Hebrews 11:6 KJV

I'm sorry you don't believe the Holy Word, cardw. But I do know He loves you beyond anything I could suggest to you. When you find Him to be the Savior of your soul, you will also find the peace that passes all understanding.

"...and the peace of God, which surpasses all understanding, will guard your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." Philippians 4:7 KJV

Regards!

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

Are you disagreeing with the idea that the robe of Christ's righteousness includes both imputed and imparted righteousness.

It's not partially by what Christ does in us (imparted) and partially what He did 2000 years ago in our humanity (imputed). IT's 100% what He did 2000 years ago (imputed) that constitutes the robe of His righteousness.

This is what our prophet has to say:

"The sacrifice in behalf of man was full and complete. The condition of the atonement had been fulfilled". Acts of the Apostles, p. 29

[Guest]

Those who have taken the position that the commandments of God were done away when Christ hung upon the cross, are in harmony with the great deceiver. God has made his constitution and his laws, and he can encircle in his arms those who are obedient, and shield them from the powerful deceptions of Satan. {RH, July 15, 1890 par. 4}

[Woody]

"All legalism, all the sorrow and woe by which you may encompass yourself, will not give you one moment of relief. You cannot rightly estimate sin. You must accept God's estimate, and it is heavy indeed. If you bore the guilt of your sin, it would crush you; but the sinless One has taken your place, and though undeserving, He has borne your guilt. By accepting the provision God has made, you may stand free before Him in the merit and virtue of your Substitute." Ellen White {BEcho, July 2, 1894 par. 3}

[Robert]

....this [imparted righteousness] isn't necessary for salvation either.

So, what Jesus did is incomplete?

[Robert]

So your conjecturing, Robert, that Jesus really said, "Go and do not sin the sin of sexual sin" as opposed to what the Scripture says, which your conclusion really infers that Jesus said also, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop, especially the little ones."

The context is the sin of adultery....

Now, let's turn the tables a bit....When you accepted Christ did He tell you to "sin no more"? If so then why are you still failing - why aren't you measuring up? Why aren't you living Christ's selfless life? And no I'm not picking on you....Just read 1 John 1:8

Do you know what Paul said of folks who demanded such? Read Gal 3:10...."All who rely on the works the law are under a curse, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.'"

If you can't fully keep the law, as Christ did, then you are under a curse. When you say, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop" I say that includes selfishness and self-love. If you insist that others stop all sin then you are placing yourself under the OC. When you do this the OC insists that you do the same.....

[Robert]

Those who have taken the position that the commandments of God were done away when Christ hung upon the cross, are in harmony with the great deceiver....

Why is it that when folks speak against perfectionism you have them doing away with the law?

The law wasn't done away with, you were.....Because you died in the humanity of Christ and have accepted that by faith the law sees you as a dead man. Therefore the law is satisfied.

Let's look at this:

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to men who know the law--that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? ....

If you are living then the law has authority over you! Since all have sinned and fall short of God's agape love the law justly states that we must die.

4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. ....

Note, the law didn't die, your life came to and end "in Christ"

6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Note, because of your death "in Christ" you have been released from the jurisdiction of the law. Since you are free and have the assurance of salvation now you can begin to experience genuine fruit from the Spirit. Some thirty-fold, some sixty and some one hundred-fold.

[Robert]

"You cannot rightly estimate sin. You must accept God's estimate, and it is heavy indeed."

TU

[Woody]

Quote:

Note, because of your death "in Christ" you have been released from the jurisdiction of the law. Since you are free and have the assurance of salvation now you can begin to experience genuine fruit from the Spirit. Some thirty-fold, some sixty and some one hundred-fold.

Thank you Robert. This is one of the best ways I've heard it put. This is the Gospel. How cool. I even believe it has shades of Ellen White.