Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Yes. Those are good. I agree with them. Hey ... you know ... I think I have actually gone 30 seconds without sinning. Do I qualify?

Yes you do. Now see if you can go 60 seconds.

I think I can do it I think I can do it I think I can do it.

[Guest]

I think you can too.

[olger]

Or we could just read the Bible and in Romans 6 find out that those who proclaim a "gospel of slavery to sin" are mistaken in what the chapter actually says.

in Christ,

Bob

"But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts."

og

[skyblue888]

Not one of us can say "I am not sinning" even if we are not sinning. At all times, even if we are overcoming as Christ overcame, we will confess ourselves as erring, helpless, condemned sinners. Otherwise it cannot be said that we are in Christ. Those who overcome as Jesus did will be the last ones to parade their own goodness. They will not even be aware that they are not sinning. But it will be just as natural for them to live the Christian life as it is for the birds to sing. This life is a miracle just as it is a miracle for a man to walk on the water.

I have been an adventist for more than 30 years and I cannot say I have lived without sinning. FAR FROM IT! But I do believe the Word of God and the Testimonies which declare that God will have a people who will live the life of Christ before He returns and that this will be accomplished by daily appropriating His merits to ourselves.

"As we behold Christ, pierced for our sins, we shall see that we cannot break the law of God and remain in His favor; we shall feel that as sinners we must lay hold of the merits of Christ and cease to sin. Then we are drawing nigh to God." Review and Herald, June 17, 1890.

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

Not one of us can say "I am not sinning" even if we are not sinning. At all times, even if we are overcoming as Christ overcame, we will confess ourselves as erring, helpless, condemned sinners...

Wouldn't that be living a lie? If one is not sinning, i.e., "overcoming as Christ overcame", and says they are an erring sinner, wouldn't they be lying?

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

...we will confess ourselves as erring, helpless, condemned sinners. Otherwise it cannot be said that we are in Christ...

We cannot call ourselves condemned sinners if we are in Christ. Remember that it is written, "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus..."

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

... Those who overcome as Jesus did will be the last ones to parade their own goodness. They will not even be aware that they are not sinning...

I agree that no follower of Jesus will "parade their own goodness." But if one must be aware that what they are doing is wrong in order for it to be sin, don't you think that one should likewise have some awareness of, or conscious and intentional regard for not doing the wrong thing. You make it sound like they are terminally oblivious and accidentally not sinning. But more fundamentally to the point, goodness/righteousness is not the same as not sinning or being sinless.

Now on this point I think the lack of awareness may make sense. Those quite naturally going about doing as Jesus did, doing the right thing, acts of goodness - doing righteousness - will not be aware that by doing so they are not sinning. But they are going beyond the shallow goal of sinless perfection. And that is the essence of living the life of Christ. This is how Jesus described the Final Judgment in Matthew 25. And those who did the good things, the cup of cold water, etc. really were not aware... I like to call that scene described by Jesus as the parable of the clueless saints.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

Wouldn't that be living a lie? If one is not sinning, i.e., "overcoming as Christ overcame", and says they are an erring sinner, wouldn't they be lying?

Quote:

But they are going beyond the shallow goal of sinless perfection.

AMEN.

Excellent Post.

[phkrause]

Not you Redwood, Jesus can do it through you and for you. Without him I know you or anyone else can't do it.

pk

[skyblue888]

"Are you in Christ? Not if you do not acknowledge yourselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners." E.G. White, Testimony No.31, p.44

Quoted by A.T. Jones in the 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.178.

Even after 30 long years of walking with Christ the apostle Paul confessed himself to be "the chief of sinners."

"That is what some of the brethren say they can't see. They say, 'I can't see how, if I am in Christ, I am to acknowledge myself a helpless, undone sinner; I thought if I was in Christ, then I could thank the Lord I was good, sinless, entirely perfect, sanctified, and all that.' Why no. He is. When you are in Christ, He is perfect, He is righteous, He is holy and never errs, and His holiness is imputed to you--is given to you. His faithfulness, His perfection is mine, but I am not that." A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin, p.178.

"A healthy man, who is able to attend to the vocations of life and who goes forth day after day to his labor with buoyant spirits and with a healthy current of blood flowing through his veins, does not call the attention of every one he meets to his soundness of body. Health and vigor are the natural conditions of his life, and therefore he is scarcely conscious that he is in the enjoyment of so rich a boon...

"Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and for his fellow men that he works the works of God with a willing heart. All who come within the sphere of his influence perceive the beauty and fragrance of his Christian life, while he himself is unconscious of it, for it is in harmony with his habits and inclinations. His life is hid with Christ in God; yet he does not boast of this nor seem conscious of it. God smiles upon the humble and lowly ones who follow closely in the footsteps of the Master. Angels are attracted to them, and love to linger about their path." E.G. White, The Sanctified Life, p.13.

Thus we are dealing with a most beautiful Christian paradox: There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that is, for those who, at all times, confessed themselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners, even the chief of sinners!

It was Martin Luther who said something like this: The more the sinner accuses himself the more God justifies him. The more little a man is in his own eyes the more God sees him!

Remember the prayer of the Pharisee vs the prayer of the Publican?

sky

[Stewart (SDA)]

Not one of us can say "I am not sinning" even if we are not sinning. At all times, even if we are overcoming as Christ overcame, we will confess ourselves as erring, helpless, condemned sinners...

I certainly agree!

Our own hearts are the most deceitful things we can ever face (Jer 17:9).

Because of this, human beings can never be totally sure of their own condition this side of heaven. It is simply impossible for anyone to claim sinlessness – even when the person is consciously innocent before man and God.

“When you come to Christ you will not boast, "I am holy." Let God, alone, say that of you, for you know not your own heart. (ST, December 22, 1887)

Again, it is not possible for us to know our own hearts as well as we would need to know them in order to make that claim.

“This is why I tell you never to boast, saying, "I am holy, I am sanctified," for it is the surest evidence that you know not the Scripture or the power of God. Let God write it in His books if He will, but you should never utter it.” (3SM 354)

But,

“He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.” (3SM 360)

________

Stewart

[skyblue888]

“When you come to Christ you will not boast, "I am holy." Let God, alone, say that of you, for you know not your own heart. (ST, December 22, 1887)

“This is why I tell you never to boast, saying, "I am holy, I am sanctified," for it is the surest evidence that you know not the Scripture or the power of God. Let God write it in His books if He will, but you should never utter it.” (3SM 354)

I love these quotes! They are perfect for our topic.

And this one I am familiar with and it is priceless:

“He who has not sufficient faith in Christ to believe that He can keep him from sinning, has not the faith that will give him an entrance into the kingdom of God.” (3SM 360)

Thanks Stewart.

sky

[cardw]

Quote:

Thus we are dealing with a most beautiful Christian paradox: There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ, that is, for those who, at all times, confessed themselves erring, helpless, condemned sinners, even the chief of sinners!

This is not beautiful at all. Its simply another form of ego. Who ever keeps telling themselves how erring and helpless they are is still focusing on themselves.

This reminds me of a joke.

A rich man kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

A priest kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

A poor man kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

The rich man looks at the poor man and says to the priest, "Look who thinks HE'S nothing!"

If we have no idea of our condition this side of heaven, then what's the point of discussing it at all? All of this is a bunch of mental gymnastics that is a complete waste of time and teaches people that low self esteem is a virtue.

The saying that captures freedom for me is, "Humbleness is not thinking low of oneself, its simply not thinking of one's self at all."

Plus the whole idea of humbleness as a virtue is an oxymoron. Humbleness has the gift of clear vision. It prevents us from lying to ourselves. Humbleness includes an accurate assessment of our abilities. Its simply pride and foolishness that exaggerates our faults.

[Stewart (SDA)]

If we have no idea of our condition this side of heaven, then what's the point of discussing it at all? All of this is a bunch of mental gymnastics that is a complete waste of time and teaches people that low self esteem is a virtue.

The view that we can have “no idea of our condition this side of heaven”, is one I cannot share.

I believe we can never be TOTALLY sure of our own condition. (Because it is possible that we may be practicing sins we are not aware of).

But God gives us a number of self-tests so that we may have real confidence and assurance with Him. One of these is,

1Jn 3:19-21

"...hereby we [may] know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him.

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God."

God is greater than a condemning heart (a condemning conscience), because He has the ability to remove that condemnation: Christ has come to "destroy the works of the Devil" in us.

If our conscience is truly clear before God and man, then we will have “confidence toward God.”

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have ALWAYS a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men." (Acts 24:16)

If the conscience is "void of offense", then as Christians, we may "assure our hearts before Him". (1Jn 3:19)

But that assurance is not self-congratulations; it does not negate the fact that the Christian’s strength is ‘perfected’ when he knows himself to be truly weak, and when he is "little in [his] own sight". (1Sam 15:17)

Another self-test is that we can know ourselves by our "fruits". It is within our power to examine ourselves.

1Jn 2:3-5

And hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

He that says, I know Him, and keeps not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

But whoever keeps His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him.

________

Regards,

Stewart

[Stewart (SDA)]

All of this is a bunch of mental gymnastics that is a complete waste of time and teaches people that low self esteem is a virtue.

There is a self-respect that we should have, and that self-respect comes from doing what we know is right. But self-esteem is something quite different in my view -- the Christian is called to esteem others better than himself.

In the world self-esteem is often presented as a great and a necessary thing, but in my view it is only the companion of pride, and ultimately it will bring a person down.

Regards,

Stewart

[Gerr]

Just tagging on.

As I have pointed out in other threads before on similar discussions about whether believers can stop sinning or not, until the distinction is made between inadvertent/reflexive sins that bypass the will from deliberate/willful/in-your-face/high-hand kind of sins, we will not accept or will forever be doubting what the Apostle John plainly said, i.e. "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning," 1 Jn 3:6, or Jesus' command, "Go and sin no more."

The former IS impossible as long as we are in this flesh. The latter is not only possible but imperative. If that is not our experience the problem is not in the promise. Rather, we should ask ourselves if we are truly abiding in Him.

[Woody]

The wages of sin is death.

I think that makes it pretty clear.

[cardw]

Quote:

The view that we can have “no idea of our condition this side of heaven”, is one I cannot share.

I believe we can never be TOTALLY sure of our own condition. (Because it is possible that we may be practicing sins we are not aware of).

The problem with these statements is that if one is not totally sure then one is not sure. To demonstrate the futility of these types of beliefs all I have to ask is "Are you saved? Yes or No"

This is simply another form of fear. If one is always in doubt of their standing before God they are doomed to live life always on the hook. It's one of the most immature ways of seeing the world. It produces dependency and a tendency to be a victim. It is no different than the ancients who believed they had to perform sacrifices, human and otherwise, to please their god or gods.

Quote:

If our conscience is truly clear before God and man, then we will have “confidence toward God.”

"And herein do I exercise myself, to have ALWAYS a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men." (Acts 24:16)

Its important to note who is doing the exercise. It is not god. In other statements this would be labelled as pride. This is the sickness of Christian belief. There are sufficient quotes to produce any view one wants to promote. There is absolutely no evidence that these ideas are divine directions. In fact the evidence of a fear based system of belief proves otherwise.

[Woody]

1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

[Guest]

Just tagging on.

As I have pointed out in other threads before on similar discussions about whether believers can stop sinning or not, until the distinction is made between inadvertent/reflexive sins that bypass the will from deliberate/willful/in-your-face/high-hand kind of sins, we will not accept or will forever be doubting what the Apostle John plainly said, i.e. "No one who abides in him keeps on sinning," 1 Jn 3:6, or Jesus' command, "Go and sin no more."

The former IS impossible as long as we are in this flesh. The latter is not only possible but imperative. If that is not our experience the problem is not in the promise. Rather, we should ask ourselves if we are truly abiding in Him.

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1JN 3:6 (ESV)

No one who remains in him goes on sinning. The one who goes on sinning hasn't seen him or known him. 1JN 3:6 (ISV)

[Woody]

I'm a SINNER saved by Grace.

[Guest]

Grace is the power to do what you know is right, not a license to keep on sinning.

[Woody]

Grace is what is given to us as forgiveness. It was earned by the only one to ever live a perfect life. He was the perfect lamb. And only HIS sacrifice could give you Grace (Forgiveness).

Does it do away with the law? NO. It just covers it with His Righteousness.

Grace is not power in and of it's self. It may motivate you and thus give you power. I serve God out of love for what He did for me. Yes, in a sense ... there is power in that love.

[Guest]

And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Act 4:33

So if you don't believe that grace is power to do right, then you must believe that grace cancels out any and all texts that say you will do right if what you have is real.

Such as this one:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1Jn 3:6

[Woody]

Richard ... you're really not making any sense here. Stick with one subject at a time.

It might serve you better.

[Guest]

I haven't changed the topic.

So if you don't believe that grace is power to do right, then you must believe that grace cancels out any and all texts that say you will do right if what you have is real.

Such as this one:

No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 1Jn 3:6

[Woody]

Richard ... obviously you are having trouble speaking about one topic. What topic would you like to discuss? The verse you quoted says nothing about Grace. Do you want to discuss Grace or the power of the Holy Spirit? Grace forgives. The Holy Spirit gives us power to overcome. Those who know God ... have no excuse for sin. I do not doubt that. But, the sins that we commit ... even though there is no excuse for ... we are forgiven of through His Grace. He has Grace because of what He did at the cross. His life and death answered the curse of the law. Therefore ... there is NO condemnation when we are IN Him and accept His life and sacrifice for us.

I hope this helps. All I can tell you is that I'm a sinner saved by 'Grace'. And that means that I am forgiven. For I am not saved by my works ... but the works of the one who saved me.