Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Well ... J317 would like to have us believe him when he provides NO proof or references other than this is what his professor told him. Hmmmm Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son' date=' so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life. (Amplified Bible) I thought you took courses in theology. In those classes, the professor talks about the meaning of "believe." You can also get books, such as Dictionaries of NT Theology, Greek-English lexicons, etc. [/quote'] Again...You have no clue who the wicked are J317. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about as you parrot dark ages theology. But you, who believes all will be saved, do know what you are talking about. Is that right? According to you, though, Ellen White also did not know what she was talking about, but you do, and we should listen to you and accept what you say. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Hey guys ... opinions are opinions. Let's respect each other. But, if you want to be convincing ... provide some references. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Redwood, do you believe that everyone will be saved? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 But you, who believes all will be saved, do know what you are talking about. Is that right? According to you, though, Ellen White also did not know what she was talking about, but you do, and we should listen to you and accept what you say. When you commit sin are you still considered a believer when you consciously make the choice? Or is your sin unconscious? When you discover who the wicked are you will understand why I know all will be saved. Are you a murderer J317? Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Hey guys ... opinions are opinions. Let's respect each other. But, if you want to be convincing ... provide some references. Go to standard Greek-English Lexicons and study the words pistis,pisteuo faith, trust, confidence, and then study what Jesus said about faith and trust in Him. Remember that trust, confidence, and reliance are synonyms: reliance noun dependence on or trust in someone or something : the farmer's reliance on pesticides. You do the rest of the study and research. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Hey guys ... opinions are opinions. Let's respect each other. But, if you want to be convincing ... provide some references. Go to standard Greek-English Lexicons and study the word pistis, faith, trust, confidence, and then study what Jesus said about faith and trust in Him. You are kidding when to try to teach us what believe means right. You say believing is action so again when you consciously sin what is considered then? Belief? Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Hey guys ... opinions are opinions. Let's respect each other. But, if you want to be convincing ... provide some references. Go to standard Greek-English Lexicons and study the word pistis, faith, trust, confidence, and then study what Jesus said about faith and trust in Him. Remember that trust, confidence, and reliance are synonyms: reliance |riˈlīəns| noun dependence on or trust in someone or something : the farmer's reliance on pesticides. You do the rest of the study and research. Yes, we rely on Jesus because we cannot stop sinning in the flesh. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Go to standard Greek-English Lexicons and study the word pistis, faith, trust, confidence, and then study what Jesus said about faith and trust in Him. [/quote'] You are kidding when to try to teach us what believe means right. You say believing is action so again when you consciously sin what is considered then? Belief? I'm not asking you to take my word for it. Go to the dictionaries and Greek lexicons and other standard reference works. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Really stretchin' things J317. Lots of commentary. Few facts. Not a good way to base one's theology. I think it is dangerous to jump to conclusions that are not based upon facts. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Go to standard Greek-English Lexicons and study the word pistis, faith, trust, confidence, and then study what Jesus said about faith and trust in Him. Remember that trust, confidence, and reliance are synonyms: reliance |riˈlīəns| noun dependence on or trust in someone or something : the farmer's reliance on pesticides. You do the rest of the study and research. [/quote'] Yes, we rely on Jesus because we cannot stop sinning in the flesh. You cannot stop sinning in flesh. Of course not. See who cannot cease from sinning, in 2 Peter 2: 13. It is not those filled with the Spirit. If a person finds they cannot cease deliberately sinning, they need to look carefully and prayerfully at their relationship with Christ. It's a sign that something is wrong. When we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we're not going to be practicing willful, deliberate sins. 1 John 3: 1-10; 5: 3, 18. But you can stop sinning when you are in the Spirit; that is, when you are living according to the Holy Spirit, and not according to your sinful nature. Study Romans 8: 3-14. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Really stretchin' things J317. Lots of commentary. Few facts. Not a good way to base one's theology. I think it is dangerous to jump to conclusions that are not based upon facts. Here are two facts: 1) John 3: 16 says belief, trust, confidence, faith, reliance, in Christ is necessary for salvation. (Notice it does not say everyone will be saved. It says whoever believes in Christ will have everlasting life.) 2) The word pisteuo is in the present tense. It means continuous confidence in and reliance upon Christ. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Again, do you believe that everyone alive and dead will be finally saved in God's kingdom? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Really stretchin' things J317. Lots of commentary. Few facts. Not a good way to base one's theology. I think it is dangerous to jump to conclusions that are not based upon facts. Here are two facts: 1) John 3: 16 says belief, trust, confidence, faith, reliance, in Christ is necessary for salvation. (Notice it does not say everyone will be saved. It says whoever believes in Christ will have everlasting life.) 2) The word pisteuo is in the present tense. It means continuous confidence in and reliance upon Christ. John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. Will God fail in his work to convince mankind of his love. Shall he not leave the 99 and seek to find the one who is lost. See you think the sinner and the believer are two different entities. But if you were the only person on earth and God delivered his Word to you just the way it is written right now, who would the wicked be then. The answer is found in these scriptures of course remembering that you are the only one on earth. 1John 3:8,9 and Romans 9:21 Who is the wicked? Quit looking outside yourself to find them. You wake up with the wicked every day. Have you discovered the true character of God yet. If you think all cannot be saved then what does that mean for you if your salvation depends on your actions. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 Yes, we rely on Jesus because we cannot stop sinning in the flesh. The Bible does not say that. We must rely totally on Christ because only He obeyed God absolutely perfectly, meeting all of the law's requirements. We trust in His merits because there is no way for us to meet the laws demands. When we accept Him by faith, the Holy Spirit is given to us as a gift, and the Holy Spirit in our life guides and empowers us to live for God. We cease to be slaves of sin and we becomes slaves of God and of righteousness. Romans 6:15-19. By faith in God's grace and through the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, we are enabled to resist all temptation to sin and to overcome the sins in our lives. But we will always have our sinful natures and we will always be able at any time to commit sin. However, from the perspective of the Bible, sin is primarily a matter of choice and character, not nature. This is demonstrated in Romans 6: 1, 15 as well as in 1 John; those verses which command us not to sin or to stop sinning. The Bible and Christ would not tell us to stop sinning if we could not stop sinning. It's a matter of saying no to sin when we are tempted to commit sin. Again, study 1 John 1: 5-10 and 2: 1-6. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Quote: 1) John 3: 16 says belief, trust, confidence, faith, reliance, in Christ is necessary for salvation. Strange ... my version doesn't include those words. I assume they are your words and not in your version either. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth, belief, trust, confidence, faith, reliance in Him should not perish but have ever lasting life. ???? Does it really say that? I just fail to see those words in my Bible. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 [ See you think the sinner and the believer are two different entities. But if you were the only person on earth and God delivered his Word to you just the way it is written right now, who would the wicked be then. The answer is found in these scriptures of course remembering that you are the only one on earth. 1John 3:8,9 and Romans 9:21 Who is the wicked? Quit looking outside yourself to find them. You wake up with the wicked every day. Have you discovered the true character of God yet. If you think all cannot be saved then what does that mean for you if your salvation depends on your actions. You are right that in the flesh-- apart from my relationship with Christ-- I am a wicked, evil person. I don't doubt that for a second. I know it experientially, and I am conscious of it all the time. I have no illusions about that fact. But let's talk about what the Bible teaches. When it speaks of the end-times and what happens to the wicked and the righteous, the Bible is not talking about people as they are apart from what Christ has done in them. For instance, Rev. 22: 11 says that there will be "the righteous" and there will be "the filthy" and the "unjust," or "unrighteous." Those are two groups. Not all humanity is righteous and not all are unjust, or unrighteous. Rev. 22: 14 says the righteous have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. That is what I am doing. That is what I hope and pray you are doing. So it is not talking about our being righteous on our own, in the flesh. It's talking about what Christ has done for us on the cross and what He has done for us in our lives through His Holy Spirit. It is referring to both Christ's imputed righteousness and His imparted righteousness. It is an disputable fact that at the end there will be two groups: the righteous and the wicked. The righteous will be saved in God's kingdom, and the wicked will be lost and "consumed," or annihilated. (See Isaiah 1: 28 in the New Language, or New Berkeley, Version; also Daniel 7: 26 in the New American Standard.) It won't be because any man in himself was better than another. It will be because of some had true faith in Christ and others did not. True faith results in the fruits of works of faith and of our lives becoming conformed to God's law and being brought into harmony with His character. This is what it means to be washed in the blood of the Lamb who takes away the sins of the world. He saves us not in our sins but from our sins. A good, thorough study of the Investigative Judgment shows how this takes place. A lot of people hate it because they want to hold on to their sins. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth, belief, trust, confidence, faith, reliance in Him should not perish but have ever lasting life. ???? Does it really say that? I just fail to see those words in my Bible. Yes, of course it does. What do you think the word pisteuo means? You should get the Amplified Bible: "For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten (unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life." Do a word study, and if you don't know how to do it, study the word pisteuo in a standard Greek-English Lexicon. Your wife knows this and can help you, I'm positive. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Quote: A good, thorough study of the Investigative Judgment shows how this takes place. A lot of people hate it because they want to hold on to their sins. This type of Christian bashing is totally unnecessary ... untrue and judgmental. I've never met anyone like this. I find that most are sincere and do not "want to hold on to their sins". This is just a typical attack from those who are extremely conservative and believe in sinless perfection. Not a good path. Let's say for instance .... Dale Ratzlaff. He is probably the most prominant Anti IJ and Sabbath ... Christian. I can tell you personally that he does not desire to keep his sins. What major Anti IJ preacher do you feel wants to keep his sins? Personally ... I think it is time to confront these kinds of outrageous judgmental comments. What Christian have you asked if they want to keep their sin? OR ... are you just judging their motives? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Woody Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 John 317 ... Have you ever looked up a word in the Dictionary? They list lots of meanings that are 'possible'. It does not mean that ALL the meanings are used with each usage of the word. One or maybe even two might. But some times ... the possible meanings are actually opposite meanings. The point is that the text does not use all those words. Could some perhaps be in context? Yes. But one needs to do a study of the context and surrounding passages to determine. I would encourage you to do a more complete study of the topic. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 A good, thorough study of the Investigative Judgment shows how this takes place. A lot of people hate it because they want to hold on to their sins. How in the world do you define "holding on to your sins." So you are saying you don't sin ever. Self righteousness was the biggest and most often addressed sin by Jesus. You deceive yourself and underestimate the power of God giving him the mind of a man. Isaiah 55 shows that God does not think like us. Your interpretation of the Gospel is bad news because it depends on our actions which 180 degrees contradicts the good news. Your righteousness is as filthy rags so what does that make your sin. Look in the mirror and ask yourself who is the most evil man you know and the answer better be YOU. Otherwise you have grasped nothing from the Word and what it is telling you. If you were the only one on earth the Word still applies so when the Bible talks about the wicked who is it speaking of. ALL OF US! Thank God the flesh that is born of Adam has been given an antidote in the Word. Born again...Born of God. Your flesh is not born of God it is born of Adam. So this speaks of the new inward man that cannot be seen with fleshly eyes. Hence the reason Paul said to judge no man by the flesh. So in light of this how is it you "know" who won't be saved. Wouldn't it be a righteous thought and prayer to God to save all even the most evil. You mention Hitler because of media brainwashing but Stalin killed more than 60 million of his own people. And he will be saved. Or at least you better hope he is or what does that mean for you. Somehow you've convinced yourself that you are more precious to God than Hitler or Stalin. What part of the law did they break that you didn't also? Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 J317, If you had the power to save all mankind and have mercy upon them would you? Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 13, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 13, 2009 J317, If you had the power to save all mankind and have mercy upon them would you? I would do just what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy say God is doing. The universe is kept safe and free from sin not by giving immortality to unrepentant rebels but to those who submit to Christ and His reign, or rule. Christ's reign comes first in our hearts and minds. If He doesn't rule in our lives, we wouldn't make very good citizens of heaven and eternity. Even God doesn't have the power to save everyone, because God refuses to force people's will. People have to choose. There are obviously many who don't want to be saved in God's kingdom, and God won't make them be there if they don't want to be. It's time to choose now. Now is the day of salvation. Someday it will be too late. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 13, 2009 Posted March 13, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 J317, If you had the power to save all mankind and have mercy upon them would you? I would do just what the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy say God is doing. The universe is kept safe and free from sin not by giving immortality to unrepentant rebels but to those who submit to Christ and His reign, or rule. Christ's reign comes first in our hearts and minds. If He doesn't rule in our lives, we wouldn't make very good citizens of heaven and eternity. Even God doesn't have the power to save everyone, because God refuses to force people's will. People have to choose. There are obviously many who don't want to be saved in God's kingdom, and God won't make them be there if they don't want to be. It's time to choose now. Now is the day of salvation. Someday it will be too late. Please quit dancing around the question like a seasoned Republican politician and give me a yes or a no answer. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.