Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Gerr]

Quote:

Your quote of 1 John 3:8 is invalid Gerry and as an Adventist you should know that adding, changing, or removing the words of the scripture is not acceptable when it comes to understanding sound doctrine.

Invalid according to whom?

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Jn 3:8). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

These are two well-respected translations.

Quote:

The version of scripture you are using attempts to water down this verse. Here is what it real says:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hmmmmmm. You think the scholarship of the KJV is superior?

I make no pretense of being a Greek scholar, but the scholars have made it possible for non-scholars like me to know the meaning and tense of the original verb. The Greek word that is translated as "makes a practice of" & "practices" in the ESV & NASB respectively, & "committeth" in the KJV is, according to Swanson, a verb, participle, nominative, singular, masculine, PRESENT, ACTIVE form of poieo. It has the following meanings per Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:

4160 ποιέω [poieo /poy·eh·o/] v. Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; TDNT 6:458; TDNTA 895; GK 4472; 579 occurrences; AV translates as “do” 357 times, “make” 113 times, “bring forth” 14 times, “commit” nine times, “cause” nine times, “work” eight times, “show” five times, “bear” four times, “keep” four times, “fulfil” three times, “deal” twice, “perform” twice, not translated three times, translated miscellaneously 43 times, and “vr do” three times. 1 to make. 1a with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc. 1b to be the authors of, the cause. 1c to make ready, to prepare. 1d to produce, bear, shoot forth. 1e to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self. 1f to make a thing out of something. 1g to (make i.e.) render one anything. 1g1 to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that. 1g2 to (make i.e.) declare one anything. 1h to put one forth, to lead him out. 1i to make one do something. 1i1 cause one to. 1j to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about). 2 to do. 2a to act rightly, do well. 2a1 to carry out, to execute. 2b to do a thing unto one. 2b1 to do to one. 2c with designation of time: to pass, spend. 2d to celebrate, keep. 2d1 to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover. 2e to perform: to a promise.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G4160). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Therefore, if it is present & active, it is something that is done repeatedly, and customarily. Therefore these two and other versions I could show you are correct in their translation. Not some watered down version as you claim.

Quote:

1 John 3:9 is an even more impossible verse to survive:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Actually, it is your version/interpretation that cannot survive 1 Jn 3:9. Why? Because the KJV says: "Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin." And since you maintain that is not possible, then NO ONE is born again. AND GOD HAS NO CHILDREN! Because verse 10 says the children of God "doeth righteousness" and in verse 8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil."

Because you cling to the KJV, you are forced to conclude that the Apostle John was talking about ALL kinds of sin, whether inadvertent or something that is done repeatedly and customarily. So you have to go through hoops and invent a person "split in two".

Look at verse 4 and see what kind of sin John was referring to.

"Everyone who poieo [verb, present, active - ongoing/repeatedly/customarily] sin/sinning also poieo [verb, present, active - ongoing/repeatedly/customarily] sin/lawlessness [anomia - without law.] Sin is lawlessness [transgression of the law - KJV].

law•less \ˈlȯ-ləs\ adjective

(12th century)

1 : not regulated by or based on law

2 a : not restrained or controlled by law : unruly

Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.

1prac•tice or prac•tise \ˈprak-təs\ verb

prac•ticed or prac•tised; prac•tic•ing or prac•tis•ing

[Middle English practisen, from Middle French practiser, from practique, pratique practice, noun, from Late Latin practice, from Greek praktikē, from feminine of praktikos]

(14th century)

transitive verb

1 a : carry out, apply 〈practice what you preach〉

b : to do or perform often, customarily, or habitually 〈practice politeness〉

c : to be professionally engaged in 〈practice medicine〉

2 a : to perform or work at repeatedly so as to become proficient 〈practice the act〉

b : to train by repeated exercises 〈practice pupils in penmanship〉

3 obsolete : plot

intransitive verb

1 : to do repeated exercises for proficiency

2 : to pursue a profession actively

3 archaic : intrigue

4 : to do something customarily

5 : to take advantage of someone 〈he practised on their credulity with huge success —Times Lit. Supp.〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.

Sooooo, are you still practicing sin so as to become more proficient at it? Are you still living a life totally unrestrained by law?

I have repeatedly said that sinlessness in the absolute sense as you are interpreting these verses to mean is impossible. I would have to agree with you. But then that would make God unfair for giving an impossible command to keep. Make Jesus foolish for telling the woman & the paralytic, "Go and sin no more." And make the Apostle John a liar for even entertaining the thought.

Until you & others understand what kind of sin/sinning 1 Jn 3 & 5 is talking about, you will continue to mock those who claim it is possible to stop PRACTICING sin/sinning, and disbelieve what Jesus and the Apostle John said, and deny the power of the gospel to transform lives.

[Michael144]

Quote:

Your quote of 1 John 3:8 is invalid Gerry and as an Adventist you should know that adding, changing, or removing the words of the scripture is not acceptable when it comes to understanding sound doctrine.

Invalid according to whom?

Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 3:8). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (1 Jn 3:8). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

These are two well-respected translations.

Quote:

The version of scripture you are using attempts to water down this verse. Here is what it real says:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Hmmmmmm. You think the scholarship of the KJV is superior?

I make no pretense of being a Greek scholar, but the scholars have made it possible for non-scholars like me to know the meaning and tense of the original verb. The Greek word that is translated as "makes a practice of" & "practices" in the ESV & NASB respectively, & "committeth" in the KJV is, according to Swanson, a verb, participle, nominative, singular, masculine, PRESENT, ACTIVE form of poieo. It has the following meanings per Enhanced Strong's Lexicon:

4160 ποιέω [poieo /poy·eh·o/] v. Apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary; TDNT 6:458; TDNTA 895; GK 4472; 579 occurrences; AV translates as “do” 357 times, “make” 113 times, “bring forth” 14 times, “commit” nine times, “cause” nine times, “work” eight times, “show” five times, “bear” four times, “keep” four times, “fulfil” three times, “deal” twice, “perform” twice, not translated three times, translated miscellaneously 43 times, and “vr do” three times. 1 to make. 1a with the names of things made, to produce, construct, form, fashion, etc. 1b to be the authors of, the cause. 1c to make ready, to prepare. 1d to produce, bear, shoot forth. 1e to acquire, to provide a thing for one’s self. 1f to make a thing out of something. 1g to (make i.e.) render one anything. 1g1 to (make i.e.) constitute or appoint one anything, to appoint or ordain one that. 1g2 to (make i.e.) declare one anything. 1h to put one forth, to lead him out. 1i to make one do something. 1i1 cause one to. 1j to be the authors of a thing (to cause, bring about). 2 to do. 2a to act rightly, do well. 2a1 to carry out, to execute. 2b to do a thing unto one. 2b1 to do to one. 2c with designation of time: to pass, spend. 2d to celebrate, keep. 2d1 to make ready, and so at the same time to institute, the celebration of the passover. 2e to perform: to a promise.

Strong, J. (1996). The exhaustive concordance of the Bible : Showing every word of the text of the common English version of the canonical books, and every occurrence of each word in regular order. (electronic ed.) (G4160). Ontario: Woodside Bible Fellowship.

Therefore, if it is present & active, it is something that is done repeatedly, and customarily. Therefore these two and other versions I could show you are correct in their translation. Not some watered down version as you claim.

Quote:

1 John 3:9 is an even more impossible verse to survive:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Actually, it is your version/interpretation that cannot survive 1 Jn 3:9. Why? Because the KJV says: "Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin." And since you maintain that is not possible, then NO ONE is born again. AND GOD HAS NO CHILDREN! Because verse 10 says the children of God "doeth righteousness" and in verse 8, "He that committeth sin is of the devil."

Because you cling to the KJV, you are forced to conclude that the Apostle John was talking about ALL kinds of sin, whether inadvertent or something that is done repeatedly and customarily. So you have to go through hoops and invent a person "split in two".

Look at verse 4 and see what kind of sin John was referring to.

"Everyone who poieo [verb, present, active - ongoing/repeatedly/customarily] sin/sinning also poieo [verb, present, active - ongoing/repeatedly/customarily] sin/lawlessness [anomia - without law.] Sin is lawlessness [transgression of the law - KJV].

law•less \ˈlȯ-ləs\ adjective

(12th century)

1 : not regulated by or based on law

2 a : not restrained or controlled by law : unruly

Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.

1prac•tice or prac•tise \ˈprak-təs\ verb

prac•ticed or prac•tised; prac•tic•ing or prac•tis•ing

[Middle English practisen, from Middle French practiser, from practique, pratique practice, noun, from Late Latin practice, from Greek praktikē, from feminine of praktikos]

(14th century)

transitive verb

1 a : carry out, apply 〈practice what you preach〉

b : to do or perform often, customarily, or habitually 〈practice politeness〉

c : to be professionally engaged in 〈practice medicine〉

2 a : to perform or work at repeatedly so as to become proficient 〈practice the act〉

b : to train by repeated exercises 〈practice pupils in penmanship〉

3 obsolete : plot

intransitive verb

1 : to do repeated exercises for proficiency

2 : to pursue a profession actively

3 archaic : intrigue

4 : to do something customarily

5 : to take advantage of someone 〈he practised on their credulity with huge success —Times Lit. Supp.〉

Merriam-Webster, I. (1996, c1993). Merriam-Webster's collegiate dictionary. Includes index. (10th ed.). Springfield, Mass., U.S.A.: Merriam-Webster.

Sooooo, are you still practicing sin so as to become more proficient at it? Are you still living a life totally unrestrained by law?

I have repeatedly said that sinlessness in the absolute sense as you are interpreting these verses to mean is impossible. I would have to agree with you. But then that would make God unfair for giving an impossible command to keep. Make Jesus foolish for telling the woman & the paralytic, "Go and sin no more." And make the Apostle John a liar for even entertaining the thought.

Until you & others understand what kind of sin/sinning 1 Jn 3 & 5 is talking about, you will continue to mock those who claim it is possible to stop PRACTICING sin/sinning, and disbelieve what Jesus and the Apostle John said, and deny the power of the gospel to transform lives.

You just made it clear that you don't understand what it means to be born again Gerry. You are looking at the flesh.

How many times does Paul mention the inward man.

I'll answer the question for you Gerry. No you cannot stop sinning neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Two in the field is talking about you Gerry, not two different people. The circumcision.

Your flesh, just as Esau did, repeatedly gives up eternal life to satisfy the moment. That is of course unless you don't sin any more.

You haven't seen the true gospel yet Gerry.

What you believe breeds self righteousness.

As for myself I claim the faith of the centurion that with a word God WILL save all. Even the worst. The farthest away from him he will retrieve. And finally put all things under his feet.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

How many did God give Him in the above equation?

I know it is hard to believe because we have been taught for centuries that God "cannot" save all mankind but is it impossible Gerry?

Can the Shepard retrieve the lost Gerry? Judge no man by the flesh. Assume God will save all or what will it be for you if your salvation can be lost. Does your salvation depend on you? You should hope not.

Even though you see it with your own eyes in John 17:2 you still have unbelief having a form of godliness but denying the power.

But you are none the less saved.

If our righteousness is as filthy rags what does that make our sin? It's about the truth not fantasy Christian camp.

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

No limits are present. I am just predicting human choice.

I realize that you are, but I am afraid that imposing your personal experience upon all others is limiting their free choice. Just another form of judging people.

regards,

og

I'm confused olger. So you are saying you don't have the same struggle redwood is talking about. So you have overcome sin in the flesh? You've stopped sinning olger? If not then explain the comment.

[John317]

Those who believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

Yes, if they truly believe, not simply claim to believe. Jesus said that many people will be lost who made the claim to believe, but He will tell them He never knew them. There will be lots of people lost who thought they would be saved.

[John317]

Your quote of 1 John 3:8 is invalid Gerry and as an Adventist you should know that adding, changing, or removing the words of the scripture is not acceptable when it comes to understanding sound doctrine.

The version of scripture you are using attempts to water down this verse. Here is what it real says:

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:9 is an even more impossible verse to survive:

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

These two scriptures hide a truth that most Christians do not understand.

The Amplified Version gives the sense of the original:

8[but] he who commits sin [who practices evildoing] is of the devil [takes his character from the evil one], for the devil has sinned (violated the divine law) from the beginning. The reason the Son of God was made manifest (visible) was to undo (destroy, loosen, and dissolve) the works the devil [has done].

9No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and [habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine sperm, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

Also the New American Standard:

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

There is a difference between practicing deliberate, intentional, willful sin and committing a sin despite wanting to do right. It's the difference between being a slave of sin and being a slave of righteousness. Slaves of righteousness and of God are not absolutely sinless or perfect. See 1 John 1 and 2.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Those who believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

Yes, if they truly believe, not simply claim to believe. Jesus said that many people will be lost who made the claim to believe, but He will tell them He never knew them. There will be lots of people lost who thought they would be saved.

In the name of clarity maybe you can answer a few questions.

1) Do you think you will be saved?

2) What exactly do you have to believe? What does it mean to believe on the name of Jesus? Is there one clear statement that can tell us what this means?

3) How do you tell if you really believe?

[Gerr]

Quote:

You just made it clear that you don't understand what it means to be born again Gerry. You are looking at the flesh.

how many times does Paul mention the inward man.

I'll answer the question for you Gerry. No you cannot stop sinning neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

Being born again is the reverse of what happened to Adam & Eve in the garden of Eden. A sinless pair became infected with Satanic viral DNA. When a sinner is born again, he/she becomes infected/infused with the divine seed/nature. As the divine seed germinates and nurtured, the power of the flesh becomes less and less. It is our choice which to nurture and allow to dominate. The earthly flesh will ALWAYS want to do evil. That is why it cannot inherit the kingdom of God. So in the absolute sense, no we cannot stop sinning because we are still bound in this flesh. But 1 Jn 3:4 and Jesus are not talking about sinlessness in the absolute sense. Than can come only after our mortal puts on immortality.

Quote:

Two in the field is talking about you Gerry, not two different people. The circumcision.

That's clever, but in the context of Mt 24 & 25, that's false. Just before Mt 24:40 (your 2 men in the field) Jesus mentioned the times of Noah. Noah & his family knew the flood was coming & entered the ark; the rest were eating & drinking unaware until swept by the flood waters. Then Jesus gives the warning to stay awake & be ready. Then in verse 45 talks about the faith & wise servant & contrasting that with the wicked servant. Then in chapter 25 the contrast between the wise & foolish virgins, the contrast between those who made use of their talents from the one who hid his, then the contrast between the sheep & the goats.

For your interpretation that the two in the field are in reality 1 person, the born-again & the flesh/old man, then for consistency, one has to consider that Noah & his family are also to be identified with those lost in the flood waters. [bTW, that contradicts your notion that all will be saved.] Again, for consistency, the faithful & wise servant is the same person as the wicked servant. And the wise & foolish virgins are the same people. Ditto the men entrusted with talents. Ditto the sheep & the goats.

Nah. That's not Biblical. And it's not logical!

Quote:

You haven't seen the true gospel yet Gerry.

The gospel is REALLY very simple. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him should not perish but have eternal life." Jn 3:16 ESV.

"For by works of the law no human being will be justified in His sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law....the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for ALL WHO BELIEVE." Rom 3:20,21 ESV.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not the result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus FOR GOOD WORKS, which God prepared behorehand, that we should WALK IN THEM." Eph 2:8-10 ESV.

Quote:

What you believe breeds self righteousness.

See above. No room for boasting or self-righteousness!!!

Quote:

As for myself I claim the faith of the centurion that with a word God WILL save all. Even the worst. The farthest away from him he will retrieve. And finally put all things under his feet.

"For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when ALL the arrogant and ALL evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set THEM ablaze, says the LORD of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.....And you shall tread down the wicked for they will be ASHES under the soles of your feet..." Mal 4:1-3.

Quote:

I know it is hard to believe because we have been taught for centuries that God "cannot" save all mankind but is it impossible Gerry?

21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eze 18:21-24). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes' date=' if they truly believe, not simply claim to believe. Jesus said that many people will be lost who made the claim to believe, but He will tell them He never knew them. There will be lots of people lost who thought they would be saved.

In the name of clarity maybe you can answer a few questions.[/quote']

Pardon me for answering since I don't see Redwood responding.

Quote:

1) Do you think you will be saved?

[BobRyan]

For those whose doctrine comes from the Bible -

1John 2:1 "These things I write to you that you sin not"

1Cor 10 "NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are ABLE but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

(And a host of others...)

For those whose doctrine comes from their own walk and the walk of others...

(I see sin in me at war with the law of my mind - the very thing I do not want to do that is the thing that I do...)

Show me a sinless person.

Tell me you are no longer sinning.

and a host of others just like it...

God promises "A" -- man claims "I tried it -- 'A' never happens".

Funny thing is -- that when someone comes to church as a blasphemer, wife beater, drug addict or chain smoker or gambler -- suddenly those SAME people are "completely convinced" that the Bible promises work to the point of actually STOPPING the wife beating, drug dealing, gambling and chain-smoking.

"instructive"

in Christ,

Bob

[Michael144]

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So if all are made alive does the scripture contradict itself when is says that the final enemy to be defeated is death?

Anyone who uses the phrase [you take that out of context] flee from them because they have no concept of the fact that the Bible is a gigantic box of puzzle pieces waiting to be put together.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Isaiah 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Notice the word many in the second verse above.

Does this contradict verse 18? Were many made sinners?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Who's sins are covered?

Luke 3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

What is that we truly believe?

Who is my neighbor?

Jesus circumcised the woman at the well when he said to her, "go get thy husband."

How you ask? When he said go get thy husband, immediately the law came into her mind exposing sin and thus the circumcision took place.

She asked for the water that she may never thirst and Jesus gave her the Word that is the law.

Ephesians 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

People are saved when they hear the word not when they approach the alter. Approaching the alter is evidence they have been circumcised by the Word.

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

The next verse is the circumciser:

John 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

The next verse is the result of the circumcision:

John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Arise take up your bed and walk...

Lazarus come forth...

Be ye therefore perfect...

Let there be light...

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

No limits are present. I am just predicting human choice.

I realize that you are, but I am afraid that imposing your personal experience upon all others is limiting their free choice. Just another form of judging people.

regards,

og

I don't follow your line of thinking Olger. But ...

In line of the thinking of this thread .... let me ask you Olger ....

Can God save ALL people?

Will God save ALL people?

Are you limiting God? Are you judging God?

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: olger

I realize that you are' date=' but I am afraid that imposing your personal experience upon all others is limiting their free choice. Just another form of judging people.

regards,

og [/quote']

I'm confused olger. So you are saying you don't have the same struggle redwood is talking about. So you have overcome sin in the flesh? You've stopped sinning olger? If not then explain the comment.

Some good questions here. I hope Olger will respond.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes' date=' if they truly believe, not simply claim to believe. Jesus said that many people will be lost who made the claim to believe, but He will tell them He never knew them. There will be lots of people lost who thought they would be saved.

[/quote']

In the name of clarity maybe you can answer a few questions.

1) Do you think you will be saved?

2) What exactly do you have to believe? What does it mean to believe on the name of Jesus? Is there one clear statement that can tell us what this means?

3) How do you tell if you really believe?

Some good questions here. I hope John will answer them.

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: olger

I realize that you are' date=' but I am afraid that imposing your personal experience upon all others is limiting their free choice. Just another form of judging people.

regards,

og [/quote']

I don't follow your line of thinking Olger. But ...

In line of the thinking of this thread .... let me ask you Olger ....

Can God save ALL people?

Will God save ALL people?

Are you limiting God? Are you judging God?

Proof we may have misunderstood God's plan:

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

That's pretty high.

He goes on to declare:

Isaiah 55:10,11 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

As Isaiah states it shall not return void and according to 1 John 5:7 which has been removed by "new" versions of scripture, the Spirit is the Word, is the Father.

Side note:

An example of the attack on Jesus in the form of his Word

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The following verses are as is in different version of the Holy Bible. Nothing has been added or removed by me.

-- King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

-- New King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

-- American Standard

1 John 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Revised Standard

1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Simple English

1 John 5:7 So, there are three witnesses which tell us :

-- New American Standard

1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses,

-- New American with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three that testify,

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 There are three that testify: {A few other authorities read (with variations) V7 [There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. V8 And there are three that testify on earth:]}

For in depth study on what is really happening with the introduction of "more understandable" versions of scripture go to youtube and use the search terms Gail Riplinger

[cardw]

Quote:

Pardon me for answering since I don't see Redwood responding.

I was hoping for something that really described what you had to believe other than belief itself.

You may not know this but the words faith, belief, and trust are interchangeable. So when I ask you how do I know that I really believe and you answer, "by faith," you are saying the same thing.

It doesn't really seem all that clear to me. And by this discussion, it doesn't really seem to be all that clear to anyone.

[olger]

I'm confused olger. So you are saying you don't have the same struggle redwood is talking about. So you have overcome sin in the flesh? You've stopped sinning olger? If not then explain the comment.

Sorry for your confusion, M144.

God has indeed given me victory in areas that I used to struggle in. Praise Him. Victory was not possible in my own strength.

"NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are ABLE but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

Our challenge as believers (your & mine) is to continue seeking Him, and allow Jesus to lead us in paths of righteousness.

regards,

`oG

[olger]

I don't follow your line of thinking Olger. But ...

In line of the thinking of this thread .... let me ask you Olger ....

Can God save ALL people?

Will God save ALL people?

Are you limiting God? Are you judging God?

Hi Red:

1) Provision has been made for the salvation of every person, if they accept it (notice the condition).

a) "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness."

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

c) "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world."

Notice the term "world" in each of these references. Praise God.

2) Will He? Yes He is willing, but some choose to reject salvation. See 2 Peter 3:9.

3) Rather silly non-sequitor question.. unless you believe universalism. I don't.

warm regards,

oG

[olger]

Some good questions here. I hope Olger will respond.

Thanks, I did.

oG

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Michael144

I'm confused olger. So you are saying you don't have the same struggle redwood is talking about. So you have overcome sin in the flesh? You've stopped sinning olger? If not then explain the comment.

Sorry for your confusion, M144.

God has indeed given me victory in areas that I used to struggle in. Praise Him. Victory was not possible in my own strength.

"NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are ABLE but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

Our challenge as believers (your & mine) is to continue seeking Him, and allow Jesus to lead us in paths of righteousness.

regards,

`oG

Sounds a little self indulgent. I'll continue thinking like the centurion....for others sake since I don't question my own salvation ever.

[John317]

The following verses are as is in different version of the Holy Bible. Nothing has been added or removed by me.

-- King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

-- New King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

-- American Standard

1 John 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Revised Standard

1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Simple English

1 John 5:7 So, there are three witnesses which tell us :

-- New American Standard

1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses,

-- New American with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three that testify,

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 There are three that testify: {A few other authorities read (with variations) V7 [There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. V8 And there are three that testify on earth:]}

For in depth study on what is really happening with the introduction of "more understandable" versions of scripture go to youtube and use the search terms Gail Riplinger

As with all other differences between translations, it's best to look into the manuscript evidence, or the textual reasons for excluding or including a verse. In this case, there are only 4 Greek manuscripts that contain the verse, and those do not date earlier than the ninth century, and two of them are in the 15th and 16th centuries, with the writing in the margin in a late handwriting.

Let the reader also examine articles that have a different view than Gail Riplinger. I agree with what the verse teaches, the Trinity, but there is little evidence to support its inclusion as legitimate Scripture. Virtually all translators, Bible scholars, and commentators agree.

The claim is made that the verse was taken out of the 1 John, but there is no manuscript evidence for that theory. If anyone were going to try to alter the Bible's teachings on the Trinity, why did they leave so many other verses in it that teach the same thing? Also, how did one group or one individual change all those manuscripts which were scattered over widely different areas?

When you examine the so-called evidence in favor of the inclusion of the verse, you will find that much of it is not factual. There has been at least one thread in this Forum devoted to the topic already.

[John317]

Can God save ALL people?

Will God save ALL people?

Are you limiting God? Are you judging God?

God cannot save all people because God cannot lie, and His word tells us that He won't save all people. He honors people's freedom to chose, and He won't force people to choose Him.

God will not save ALL people. We have His Word for it. Read Matt. 24, 2 Thess., and Rev. 14-20.

This is not limiting God. It is simply accepting what God has already said. To say that God will save everyone would be to call God a liar-- at least if God inspired the Bible.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Michael144

I'm confused olger. So you are saying you don't have the same struggle redwood is talking about. So you have overcome sin in the flesh? You've stopped sinning olger? If not then explain the comment.

Sorry for your confusion, M144.

God has indeed given me victory in areas that I used to struggle in. Praise Him. Victory was not possible in my own strength.

"NO temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will NOT ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which YOU are ABLE but will with the temptation provide a way of escape".

Our challenge as believers (your & mine) is to continue seeking Him, and allow Jesus to lead us in paths of righteousness.

regards,

`oG

Not sure what this is all about.

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION ....

[John317]

JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION ....

The answer is in 1 John 1: 5- 2: 6.

The answer is that as soon as we overcome one sin in our lives, the Holy Spirit convicts us of other defects in our lives. These often are sins that we were not aware of before.

The point is that Christ enables us to resist and overcome all known, conscious sins in our lives. But until the sealing by the Holy Spirit, or the close of human probation, there will be sins that God lovingly points out to us.

Living a sinless life is possible if we understand "sinless" in the sense that Ellen White used it. There "sinless" means not choosing to sin when faced with a choice between obedience and disobedience. Ellen White never used that term in the sense of being absolutely without sin.

Another important point is that each of us is capable of sinning at any time. At any moment we can fall and turn back to our sins.

The person who is closest to Christ is the last person to consider himself as "sinless." On the other hand, the person who has the Spirit leading him and is closest to Christ does not practice deliberate and willful sin. Such a person does not live a lifestyle devoted to sinning. Instead he lives for God and is a slave of righteousness. See Romans 6 and 8. Remember that the man of Romans 7 does not have the Spirit in his life and therefore is not the Christian's model. Paul is there describing the man whose life is not led by the Holy Spirit. God's plan for the Christian experience is described in Romans 6 and 8, and 2 Peter 1.

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Michael144

The following verses are as is in different version of the Holy Bible. Nothing has been added or removed by me.

-- King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

-- New King James

1 John 5:7 For there are three who bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.

-- American Standard

1 John 5:7 And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Revised Standard

1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.

-- Simple English

1 John 5:7 So, there are three witnesses which tell us :

-- New American Standard

1 John 5:7 For there are three that testify:

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three witnesses,

-- New American with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 So there are three that testify,

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha

1 John 5:7 There are three that testify: {A few other authorities read (with variations) V7 [There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. V8 And there are three that testify on earth:]}

For in depth study on what is really happening with the introduction of "more understandable" versions of scripture go to youtube and use the search terms Gail Riplinger

As with all other differences between translations, it's best to look into the manuscript evidence, or the textual reasons for excluding or including a verse. In this case, there are only 4 Greek manuscripts that contain the verse, and those do not date earlier than the ninth century, and two of them are in the 15th and 16th centuries, with the writing in the margin in a late handwriting.

Let the reader also examine articles that have a different view than Gail Riplinger. I agree with what the verse teaches, the Trinity, but there is little evidence to support its inclusion as legitimate Scripture. Virtually all translators, Bible scholars, and commentators agree.

The claim is made that the verse was taken out of the 1 John, but there is no manuscript evidence for that theory. If anyone were going to try to alter the Bible's teachings on the Trinity, why did they leave so many other verses in it that teach the same thing? Also, how did one group or one individual change all those manuscripts which were scattered over widely different areas?

When you examine the so-called evidence in favor of the inclusion of the verse, you will find that much of it is not factual. There has been at least one thread in this Forum devoted to the topic already.

1John 5:7 reveals much more than the trinity which is a made up word to begin with. It reveals that the Holy Spirit is the Word of God.

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Can God save ALL people?

Will God save ALL people?

Are you limiting God? Are you judging God?

God cannot save all people because God cannot lie, and His word tells us that He won't save all people. He honors people's freedom to chose, and He won't force people to choose Him.

God will not save ALL people. We have His Word for it. Read Matt. 24, 2 Thess., and Rev. 14-20.

This is not limiting God. It is simply accepting what God has already said. To say that God will save everyone would be to call God a liar-- at least if God inspired the Bible.

You misinterpret the scriptures John317. Here's one in plain English:

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Matthew 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

The amazing thing is that you don't realize every time you speak your unbelief is exposed.

And I'm frankly shocked that you had the boldness to say God cannot save all especially in light of Isaiah 55:8,9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.