Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 1John 5:7 reveals much more than the trinity which is a made up word to begin with. It reveals that the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yes, it's true that the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, but the doctrine certainly is plain enough. The Bible teaches elsewhere that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are One. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Woody Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: The amazing thing is that you don't realize every time you speak your unbelief is exposed. Yeah. We all can do that. Open mouth ... insert foot. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 God cannot save all people because God cannot lie' date=' and His word tells us that He won't save all people. He honors people's freedom to chose, and He won't force people to choose Him. God will not save ALL people. We have His Word for it. Read Matt. 24, 2 Thess., and Rev. 14-20. This is not limiting God. It is simply accepting what God has already said. To say that God will save everyone would be to call God a liar-- at least if God inspired the Bible. [/quote'] You misinterpret the scriptures John317. Here's one in plain English: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Do you believe that God will save everyone? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 1John 5:7 reveals much more than the trinity which is a made up word to begin with. It reveals that the Holy Spirit is the Word of God. Yes, it's true that the word "Trinity" is not found in the Bible, but the doctrine certainly is plain enough. The Bible teaches elsewhere that the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit are One. So what does it mean to you that the Holy Spirit is the Word. I mean you said the evidence shows it should not be there. As an Adventist you don't agree that the Bible is under attack? If I say up means up will you come back and tell me that up really means down. You can't seem to agree with even basic knowledge. Of all people Adventists should know there is a conspiracy. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 I mean come on j317. Look at your testimony. You of all people should believe without a second thought that God can save all. Are you some special case that he plucked out of darkness. God is no respecter of persons. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. OK, so you are a Universalist. Please deal with the following verses: Matt. 25: 41 2 Thess. 1: 9, 10; 2: 7-10 Rev. 20: 7-15. Rev. 22: 15 Mal. 4: 1-3 Is. 66: 24 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 I mean come on j317. Look at your testimony. You of all people should believe without a second thought that God can save all. Are you some special case that he plucked out of darkness. God is no respecter of persons. I don't doubt God ability to empower people to be saved, but people must decide to surrender their lives to Him. He convicts of sin and the Spirit gives us a desire for right, but we can resist the impressions of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit-- God's grace-- is not irresistible. We can reject God. Many do. It's like God's throwing drowning people a life-line. Some grab it and others don't. He doesn't put the rope in our hands and force us to keep holding on. Some grab it temporarily but let go. The Bible speaks of the importance of "enduring to the end." See Hebrews 3: 6. Jesus Himself said, "He who endures to the end will be saved." Matt. 10: 22. Do you believe, then, that people who reject God and salvation will be saved anyway, despite their choice? How many millions of people have died rejecting and even hating God? Do you believe those people will be saved in God's kingdom? What about 1 Cor. 6: 9-10? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
olger Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. Elhanan Winchester revisited..So, we have a Universalist among us. How long have you held this belief? regards, oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
olger Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 God will not chain rebels to His side. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 God will not chain rebels to His side. Exactly right. The death of Christ was all about proving how strongly God is committed to honoring our choice. He takes our choice seriously. He will not have a concentration camp or prison for eternity for those who reject the offer. Nor will He change our characters and our thinking by force. He doesn't want a bunch of puppets. He only accepts intelligent worship freely given. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. In your judgment, does that include Satan and all his demons? If so, it would certainly make them thrilled to hear it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Moderators Gerr Posted March 9, 2009 Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 You might want to recheck my response. Faith/belief is seen by what it does. Quote
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. Elhanan Winchester revisited..So, we have a Universalist among us. How long have you held this belief? regards, oG Not a Universalist. No man taught me what I found. I was a Seventh Day Adventist for 15 years until there were too many arguments among the committees about why they shouldn't be having meetings in the sanctuary because it was a "holy place." Get this..We ended up having to set up chairs in the school hallway because of this technical thinking. Adventism definitely taught me to dig deep so there are no regrets there at all. This is why I am in this forum, because Adventists are definitely family to me...Just trying to share the pearls I found. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. In your judgment, does that include Satan and all his demons? If so, it would certainly make them thrilled to hear it. This is a perfect example. Who was Jesus talking to when he said [get thee behind me Satan] to Simon? Moments after commending Peter for saying Jesus was the Messiah. Two in the field. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: olger God will not chain rebels to His side. Exactly right. The death of Christ was all about proving how strongly God is committed to honoring our choice. He takes our choice seriously. He will not have a concentration camp or prison for eternity for those who reject the offer. Nor will He change our characters and our thinking by force. He doesn't want a bunch of puppets. He only accepts intelligent worship freely given. you had no choice in what Adam chose to do. You inherited sin. 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. If all are made alive and the last enemy to be defeated is death what can we conclude from this? How many will be saved? It says it in plain English right here: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. How many does this verse say the Father gave Jesus? How will God save all mankind? John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Even the dogs get the crumbs that fall from the masters table. Centurion: ...speak the word only and my servant will be healed. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess... Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: You argue against me with nothing new. All denominations say the same things you are saying. From days of old fear has been taught but fear no less has it's purpose. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators Gerr Posted March 9, 2009 Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 God cannot save all people because God cannot lie' date=' and His word tells us that He won't save all people. He honors people's freedom to chose, and He won't force people to choose Him. God will not save ALL people. We have His Word for it. Read Matt. 24, 2 Thess., and Rev. 14-20. This is not limiting God. It is simply accepting what God has already said. To say that God will save everyone would be to call God a liar-- at least if God inspired the Bible. [/quote'] You misinterpret the scriptures John317. Here's one in plain English: John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And who are those that Father have given to Christ Was it ALL? Meaning believers and unbelievers alike? Go to 7:12. Jesus said, "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction...." Jesus plainly said that Judas was a lost man. Ditto the "man of lawlessness....the son of destruction," 2 Thes 2:3. Who are those that the Father gave to Christ? "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." Rom 8:29-30 ESV. Everyone will be saved? It is written: "And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet..." Mal 4:3 ESV. "And they (the wicked) marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and CONSUMED them......And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire," Rev 20:9,15 ESV. How could God take people to where they don't want to be? He does not force anyone's will. If all are going to be saved whether wicked or repentant anyway, what's the point of Christ dying on the cross? Quote
cardw Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 You might want to recheck my response. Faith/belief is seen by what it does. Well, that seems a rather obscure response. Doesn't make salvation any simpler. It continues to be just as confusing. This really brings us back to the robot analogy. I create a robot and give this robot free will. I then set the rules. I get the credit for anything this robot does that is good. And anything that it does bad is its fault. Basically under your system, God gives us free will to choose, but we only get credit for one side of that free choice. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Michael144 And who are those that Father have given to Christ Was it ALL? Meaning believers and unbelievers alike? Go to 7:12. Jesus said, "While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction...." Jesus plainly said that Judas was a lost man. Ditto the "man of lawlessness....the son of destruction," 2 Thes 2:3. Who are those that the Father gave to Christ? "For those whom He foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, in order that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom He predestined He also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified." Rom 8:29-30 ESV. Everyone will be saved? It is written: "And you shall tread down the wicked, for they shall be ASHES under the soles of your feet..." Mal 4:3 ESV. "And they (the wicked) marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and CONSUMED them......And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire," Rev 20:9,15 ESV. How could God take people to where they don't want to be? He does not force anyone's will. If all are going to be saved whether wicked or repentant anyway, what's the point of Christ dying on the cross? You have not discovered who the wicked are yet Gerry. When you do discover who "they" are you think back to this conversation and rejoice in what I am telling you. How do you know they "don't want to be?" Think like the Centurion (Matthew 8:5), apply the following scripture, and be set free. Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45. That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 46. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 47. And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You might want to recheck my response. Faith/belief is seen by what it does. Well, that seems a rather obscure response. Doesn't make salvation any simpler. It continues to be just as confusing. The Hebrew concept of belief is different from the Greek concept. For the Greek belief was merely intellectual, whereas for the Hebrew, belief was something that involved the whole person, his heart and will, etc., not merely his intellect. Notice the kind of faith referred to in Hebrews 11: 6-- "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Also James 2: 36-- a passage that the Greeks would not have understood-- "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Therefore, from the Biblical viewpoint, true faith results in action, specifically in obedience to God. Why are they confusing to you? The answer is in 1 Cor. 2: 10-14 and Daniel 12:10. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Originally Posted By: cardw Well' date=' that seems a rather obscure response. Doesn't make salvation any simpler. It continues to be just as confusing.[/quote'] The Hebrew concept of belief is different from the Greek concept. For the Greek belief was merely intellectual, whereas for the Hebrew, belief was something that involved the whole person, his heart and will, etc., not merely his intellect. Notice the kind of faith referred to in Hebrews 11: 6-- "Without faith it is impossible to please God, for he who comes to God must believe that He exists, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Also James 2: 36-- a passage that the Greeks would not have understood-- "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." Therefore, from the Biblical viewpoint, true faith results in action, specifically in obedience to God. Why are they confusing to you? The answer is in 1 Cor. 2: 10-14 and Daniel 12:10. Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. What do people not understand about this. Anything we do that may appear to be righteous is self motivated...Borderline evil..You may appear to have it together because I see you in a nice suit at church but scripture clearly says judge no man by the flesh. Something that even appears righteous can fool us. Pedophile priests would be a good example. But even that sin is no more deadly than our secret sins. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators John317 Posted March 9, 2009 Author Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Please deal with the following verses in the light of your belief that God will ultimately save everyone in His Kingdom-- Matt. 25: 41 Romans 2: 5-11 2 Thess. 1: 9, 10; 2: 7-10 Rev. 14: 9-11 Rev. 20: 7-15. Rev. 22: 15 Mal. 4: 1-3 Is. 66: 24 Hebrews 10: 39 Hebrews 9: 27, 28 Psalm 1 Isaiah 1:27-31 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Michael144 Posted March 9, 2009 Posted March 9, 2009 Please deal with the following verses in the light of your belief that God will ultimately save everyone in His Kingdom-- Matt. 25: 41 Romans 2: 5-11 2 Thess. 1: 9, 10; 2: 7-10 Rev. 14: 9-11 Rev. 20: 7-15. Rev. 22: 15 Mal. 4: 1-3 Is. 66: 24 Hebrews 10: 39 Hebrews 9: 27, 28 Psalm 1 Isaiah 1:27-31 You will understand these words when you discover who the wicked are. All the scriptures backing me up can be found in this topic. Quote 1 Corinthians4:5
Moderators Gerr Posted March 9, 2009 Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: Do you believe that God will save everyone? Absolutely 100%. With scriptural backing. You left out the other part, i.e. believers and unbelievers? If that is true that God will save also even the unbelievers, then God is contradicting Himself. And that can't be! He also said: Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: wthe soul who sins shall die. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eze 18:4). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. 21.“But if a wicked person turns away from all his sins that he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is just and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions that he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness that he has done he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Eze 18:21-24). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 6:23). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, when all the arrogant and all evildoers will be stubble. The day that is coming shall set them ablaze, says the Lord of hosts, so that it will leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. 3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the Lord of hosts. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Mal 4:1-3). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them, 10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Re 20:9-10). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Re 20:14-15). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. The Lord God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ge 2:15-17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ge 3:4-5). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society. God said: If you sin you die, burned up. You and the serpent are saying: No, you will not die. So, who should I believe? Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted March 9, 2009 Moderators Posted March 9, 2009 Quote: You will understand these words when you discover who the wicked are. The same one who promised, "You will not surely die," for disobedience, also promised something esoteric, "Your eyes will be opened...." Gen 3. Quote
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