Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Woody]

Quote:

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright [scare] them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God."

....

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." PK 589

[Woody]

Quote:

"Sanctification is a lifelong process. Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

[Michael144]

Quote:

"Sanctification is a lifelong process. Perfection now is ours only in Christ, but the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the Second Advent ...

Neither Christlike character traits nor faultess behaviour is the ground of our acceptance with God. Saving righteourness comes from the one righteous Man Jesus and is conveyed to us by the Holy Spirit. We can contribute nothing to Christ's gift of righteousness - we can only receive it. No one other than Christ is righteous; independent human righteousness is only filthy rags. " Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 145-6

"cricket" "cricket"

[phkrause]

"And just as you are saved so it is that you will see Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin worshiping the one and true God right along side of us." Sorry but I don't believe that statement for one minute! I'm pretty sure that Stephen will be very surprised to see Paul (Saul when he knew him) and will ask Jesus why this man is there, Jesus will show Stephen why Paul is there, show him how his life had changed. Where is the evidence's that Hitler's life had changed after Killing millions of jews, armineans, christians, etc. There is none. And the same goes for Stalin. Sorry but you will never convince me that anyone that lives a life of crime and does not ask for forgiveness and goes and sins no more will be saved.

pk

[Woody]

I agree with you on that account pk.

I would just add that we never know the heart and whether at the last moment like the thief on the cross ... if things might have been made right. And the right decisions made.

[melvin mccarty]

For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. Inasmuch as you have done it unto one of the least of these, My brothers, you have done it unto Me. Now abideth faith, hope and love but the greatest of these is love.

No all will not be saved but I am sure you will be surprised if you really believe what you stress here. ....mel

[phkrause]

Yes Redwood I agree with you. Just like that thief on the cross, God knows if we are asking for forgiveness. And if it turns out that Hitler is there and God shows us that he really did confess and asked for forgiveness, than Redwood I will have no problem with him being there.

pk

[Michael144]

Yes Redwood I agree with you. Just like that thief on the cross, God knows if we are asking for forgiveness. And if it turns out that Hitler is there and God shows us that he really did confess and asked for forgiveness, than Redwood I will have no problem with him being there.

pk

[melvin mccarty]

Since A Hitler shot himself perhaps one could use a more appropriate illustration....mel

[Gerr]

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Isn't it interesting that the very text you are using to back up your notion that all will be saved contradicts your idea? Plain and simple. One will be taken - the righteous, and one is left behind - the wicked. The secret rapture believers have done the same thing. They base their secret rapture theory on 1 Thes 4:16,17 which contradicts the spin they're putting on it! Breaking common sense rules of exegesis will land you in the wrong place every time. You can't use a more obscure interpretation to get the meaning at what is plain and simple.

[Michael144]

Matthew 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Isn't it interesting that the very text you are using to back up your notion that all will be saved contradicts your idea? Plain and simple. One will be taken - the righteous, and one is left behind - the wicked. The secret rapture believers have done the same thing. They base their secret rapture theory on 1 Thes 4:16,17 which contradicts the spin they're putting on it! Breaking common sense rules of exegesis will land you in the wrong place every time. You can't use a more obscure interpretation to get the meaning at what is plain and simple.

[Michael144]

For the record I do not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture...That most certainly is an Illuminati sleeping pill that has obviously been potently effective.

[John317]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Quote:

Kind of blows J317s "free will" theory to smithereens when considering righteousness that is.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Quote:

Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh (Hitler, Stalin, Bush, Clinton), Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Romans 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy (inward man), and whom he will he hardeneth (The flesh).

Romans 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Romans 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Whichever way you understand those verses, they certainly do not teach that everyone will be saved.

The fact is that some people choose to "receive" Christ and others choose to reject Him. You get that much out of the Gospels and out of the letters of Paul, Peter, and John. The Bible says, "Choose you this day whom you will serve." There are many such appeals made in the Scriptures for people to make the right choices. The experiences of Adam and Eve show how deadly and tragic the wrong choice can be.

The book of Romans itself is full of appeals for its readers to make choices: For instance, Romans 12: 1, 19, 21; 13: 1,3, 8, 11. All of these appeals would be without purpose if people were unable to make meaningful choices.

Many verses refer to choices people make: Romans 1: 27; 6: 1, 13, 15; 10: 8-13; Romans 11: 22, 23 clearly contains promises based on whether people freely choose to believe or to reject God's offers. Hebrews 4: 1-14 shows that we make choices that result in either salvation or condemnation.

Verses such as John 1: 12-13 and John 3: 6 do not eliminate choice. They simply tell us it is not human power that saves us but God's power. But we have to make a choice to accept God and submit to Him. God's grace is not irresistible. Goes does not force us to believe in Christ. Many reject Him.

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Michael144

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Quote:

J317"Choose you this day whom you will serve."

Verses such as John 1: 12-13 and John 3: 6 do not eliminate choice. They simply tell us it is not human power that saves us but God's power. But we have to make a choice to accept God and submit to Him. God's grace is not irresistible. Goes does not force us to believe in Christ. Many reject Him.

You conveniently rearranged my post I see....I wasn't referring to John 1:12,13 only; as you made it appear.

So when you consciously sin who is it that you are choosing to serve. In other words you will have to define "serve."

And every time I ask this question you justify the little sins you consciously "choose" to commit.

[John317]

Make your best case-- if you believe it-- that God's word teaches all people will finally be saved in God's kingdom.

Don't forget to address all of the verses that flatly contradict that idea. Well, OK, not ALL of them-- because there are far too many to deal with in a single post,--but I would only request that you deal with the major ones.

This should be interesting, to say the least.

By the way, have you read any of the posts by a fellow named "Dr. Rich" (working out of an SDA church only 15 miles from me) who claims that the Apostle Paul was a liar and faker? And that the books of Luke and Acts are unreliable and should not be included among the inspired record?

To such a length will some go to support their unBiblical viewpoint. They will actually say that most of the NT is false and from the Devil. He even suggests that Ellen White was the "Jezebel" referred to in Rev. 2: 20.

But now what about this teaching that all humanity will be saved? How can you possibly defend such a belief, Biblically?

Do you believe that Satan and the demons will also be saved? I do not know if you believe Satan will be saved but I know this is believed by some.

[Michael144]

Make your best case-- if you believe it-- that God's word teaches all people will finally be saved in God's kingdom.

Don't forget to address all of the verses that flatly contradict that idea. Well, OK, not ALL of them-- because there are far too many to deal with in a single post,--but I would only request that you deal with the major ones.

This should be interesting, to say the least.

By the way, have you read any of the posts by a fellow named "Dr. Rich" (working out of an SDA church only 15 miles from me) who claims that the Apostle Paul was a liar and faker? And that the books of Luke and Acts are unreliable and should not be included among the inspired record?

To such a length will some go to support their unBiblical viewpoint. They will actually say that most of the NT is false and from the Devil. He even suggests that Ellen White was the "Jezebel" referred to in Rev. 2: 20.

But now what about this teaching that all humanity will be saved? How can you possibly defend such a belief, Biblically?

Do you believe that Satan and the demons will also be saved? I do not know if you believe Satan will be saved but I know this is believed by some.

None of the scripture sent by God is false...As I told you before you have no idea WHO the wicked are...All scripture lines up. How many times do i need to keep repeating this? Do you know all the mysteries of parable and prophecy. If indeed you don't the door is wide open for you to be wrong.

I mean you are fooled into thinking that you can keep the law so nothing further needs to be said if you can keep all ten commands.

You are saved whether you believe me or not but your perception of God is none the less tainted by centuries old teaching.

You don't fully know God yet.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Quote:

J317"Choose you this day whom you will serve."

Verses such as John 1: 12-13 and John 3: 6 do not eliminate choice. They simply tell us it is not human power that saves us but God's power. But we have to make a choice to accept God and submit to Him. God's grace is not irresistible. Goes does not force us to believe in Christ. Many reject Him.

[/quote']

You conveniently rearranged my post I see....I wasn't referring to John 1:12,13 only; as you made it appear.

Just for you, Michael, if you tell me what you want included in the post, I will change it and include anything you want in it.

I apologize for changing anything. I honestly was unaware that I made changes that you wouldn't approve of. I thought I was treating your arguments fairly. What did I leave out that you wanted included? Tell me and it will be done.

[John317]

I mean you are fooled into thinking that you can keep the law so nothing further needs to be said if you can keep all ten commands.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle John to write something untrue in 1 John 5: 3-- "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" ?

What about Rev. 14: 12, which points out a people of God who "keep the commandments of God"?

Or when Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"? (See also 1 John 2: 3,4; 3: 1-10)

Romans 6 through 8: 17, especially verses 8: 2-5, makes it abundantly clear that we cannot possibly obey God's will apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; but it also makes it clear that with the Holy Spirit in us and guiding us, we are enabled to obey God.

When we are living or walking in the flesh, it is certainly not possible, yet when we are living according to the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body, we becomes slaves of righteousness for holiness (Romans 6: 10). It is always best to attend to, and practice, what John says in the first chapter of his first letter, verses 5-10.

[John317]

...As I told you before you have no idea WHO the wicked are...All scripture lines up. How many times do i need to keep repeating this? Do you know all the mysteries of parable and prophecy. If indeed you don't the door is wide open for you to be wrong....

You don't fully know God yet.

Yes, I freely confess it, without irony, that I do not know all the mysteries of parable and prophecy, nor do I fully know God. Truer words were never spoken.

Do I know who the wicked are, according to the Bible? Yes, I think so, but I am always willing to learn and be corrected if the evidence warrants.

However, I don't accept everyone's claims to know things irrespective of their evidence. I insist that they show good reasons and evidence, particularly when it comes to matters having to do with God and the Bible. I hope everyone does the same.

[Woody]

Quote:

I mean you are fooled into thinking that you can keep the law so nothing further needs to be said if you can keep all ten commands.

It is true that some SDAs feel that they can keep the Law. You will find them on this board. I agree it is shameful. But, we do need to be patient with babes in Christ. It is just like the Jews. They thought they could keep the Law. And they were very earnest in trying to force themselves to do so.

However ... this is a step. A baby step. But we can hope that as they grow ... they will be less rules oriented. They will see the value in a faith relationship with Christ instead of a rules based one.

Yes, we must be patient because each of us is at a different level of growth.

[John317]

Quote:

I mean you are fooled into thinking that you can keep the law so nothing further needs to be said if you can keep all ten commands.

It is true that some SDAs feel that they can keep the Law. You will find them on this board. I agree it is shameful. But, we do need to be patient with babes in Christ. It is just like the Jews. They thought they could keep the Law. And they were very earnest in trying to force themselves to do so.

However ... this is a step. A baby step. But we can hope that as they grow ... they will be less rules oriented. They will see the value in a faith relationship with Christ instead of a rules based one.

Yes, we must be patient because each of us is at a different level of growth.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle John to write something untrue in 1 John 5: 3-- "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" ?

What about Rev. 14: 12, which points out a people of God who "keep the commandments of God"?

Or when Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"? (See also 1 John 2: 3,4; 3: 1-10)

Romans 6 through 8: 17, especially verses 8: 2-5, makes it abundantly clear that we cannot possibly obey God's will apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; but it also makes it clear that with the Holy Spirit in us and guiding us, we are enabled to obey God.

When we are living or walking in the flesh, it is certainly not possible, yet when we are living according to the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body, we becomes slaves of righteousness for holiness (Romans 6: 10). It is always best to attend to, and practice, what John says in the first chapter of his first letter, verses 5-10.

By His life and His death, Christ proved that God's justice did not destroy His mercy, but that sin could be forgiven, and that the law is righteous, and can be perfectly obeyed. Satan's charges were refuted. God had given man unmistakable evidence of His love. DA 762

Satan represents God's law of love as a law of selfishness. He declares that it is impossible for us to obey its precepts. The fall of our first parents, with all the woe that has resulted, he charges upon the Creator, leading men to look upon God as the author of sin, and suffering, and death. Jesus was to unveil this deception. As one of us He was to give an example of obedience. For this He took upon Himself our nature, and passed through our experiences. "In all things it behooved Him to be made like unto His brethren." Heb. 2:17. If we had to bear anything which Jesus did not endure, then upon this point Satan would represent the power of God as insufficient for us. Therefore Jesus was "in all points tempted like as we are." Heb. 4:15. He endured every trial to which we are subject. And He exercised in His own behalf no power that is not freely offered to us. As man, He met temptation, and overcame in the strength given Him from God. He says, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. As He went about doing good, and healing all who were afflicted by Satan, He made plain to men the character of God's law and the nature of His service. His life testifies that it is possible for us also to obey the law of God. DA 24

[Michael144]

Originally Posted By: Michael144

I mean you are fooled into thinking that you can keep the law so nothing further needs to be said if you can keep all ten commands.

Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Apostle John to write something untrue in 1 John 5: 3-- "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome" ?

What about Rev. 14: 12, which points out a people of God who "keep the commandments of God"?

Or when Jesus said, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments"? (See also 1 John 2: 3,4; 3: 1-10)

Romans 6 through 8: 17, especially verses 8: 2-5, makes it abundantly clear that we cannot possibly obey God's will apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit; but it also makes it clear that with the Holy Spirit in us and guiding us, we are enabled to obey God.

When we are living or walking in the flesh, it is certainly not possible, yet when we are living according to the Spirit, putting to death the deeds of the body, we becomes slaves of righteousness for holiness (Romans 6: 10). It is always best to attend to, and practice, what John says in the first chapter of his first letter, verses 5-10.

No, what John said is not untrue untrue? Do you keep the commandments? If you don't then according to your argument you do not love God.

It will be interesting to see how you skate around the point this time. And the reason you skate is because you can't stop sinning and cannot explain why......Because you don't know who the wicked are in scripture.

[Woody]

Quote:

No, what John said is not untrue untrue? Do you keep the commandments? If you don't then according to your argument you do not love God.

It will be interesting to see how you skate around the point this time. And the reason you skate is because you can't stop sinning and cannot explain why.

Good Point.

[BobRyan]

Or we could just read the Bible and in Romans 6 find out that those who proclaim a "gospel of slavery to sin" are mistaken in what the chapter actually says.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

Or we could just read the Bible and in Romans 6 find out that those who proclaim a "gospel of slavery to sin" are mistaken in what the chapter actually says.

in Christ,

Bob

I am a slave to sin ... that is why I can come to Christ. That is why He came. It is for those slaves that He came. People like you ... don't need a Saviour because you don't sin.