Robert Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Numbers 32 While the Israelites were in the desert, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day {He was sinning under law - under the OC]. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp." 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses. Don't read this like this is what the Lord wanted...what He commanded. It's more like Israel demanded law and under law you must die when you sin. At anytime these self-righteous Jews could have asked for a better covenant, but they didn't. Even in the time of Christ the same self-righteousness was prevalent. God simply commanded what the Jews had asked for - obey and live, disobey and die. Quote
cardw Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Quote: Here's the key: Israel, probably because they were raised in the Egyptian (pagan) religions, believed in appeasing an angry god(s). It was fear and reward based. If you did well the afterlife was yours. Israel demanded law...they wanted heaven by their law performance. So Christ, in order to open their eyes, entered the Old Covenant with them. The problem with being under law is if you sin you must die. That's the Old Covenant - obey and live, disobey and die. It seems quite drastic, but apparently it was the only course God could take. You really think this is the best idea someone could come up with? My kids can demand a lot of things, but it doesn't mean I'm going to give it to them. The problem with this god is that it doesn't really take all that much to be better than this god. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Robert Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 You really think this is the best idea someone could come up with? My kids can demand a lot of things, but it doesn't mean I'm going to give it to them. The problem with this god is that it doesn't really take all that much to be better than this god. 1] God wasn't dealing with kids.... 2] God doesn't use force...He doesn't force the will. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 You really think this is the best idea someone could come up with? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
cardw Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Quote: 1] God wasn't dealing with kids.... 2] God doesn't use force...He doesn't force the will. Really... Killing someone over something as simple as gathering sticks is not forcing the will? I would imagine that this provided a rather powerful incentive to not gather sticks for the rest of the tribe. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
skyblue888 Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 There is so much misunderstanding about the Old Testament as to why these laws existed. If the Israelites had accepted God's perfect way of dealing with sin within the camp and with their enemies, no such laws would have been instituted. We forget that they were living under a Theocracy and that God was the Ruler in both their religious and civil affairs and that many of the instructions given were consistent with man's way of doing things, not God's, because they had chosen their own way instead of God's way but God was willing to go the second mile with them until they would learn to submit to His way which was the best way. Because of these laws it appears that God in the Old Testatment was waiting to punish the sinner for his sin. But it is written that "We are not to regard God as waiting to punish the sinner for his sin." 1 S.M.234. There is more than meets the eye when we study the Old Testament. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.
cardw Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Quote: What would have been a better idea? Well we have to establish that killing someone for gathering sticks and a god ordering a nation to wipe out its enemies and to rape their women is a good idea. Quote: What would it would it take? Why would it be better? What happened to the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath? What is unbelievable for me is that anyone would consider defending these types of policies. If we observed these types of laws in Afghanistan, which is also an iron age culture, we would have no problem seeing them as unreasonable. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Robert Posted November 18, 2009 Posted November 18, 2009 Quote: 1] God wasn't dealing with kids.... 2] God doesn't use force...He doesn't force the will. Really... Killing someone over something as simple as gathering sticks is not forcing the will? I would imagine that this provided a rather powerful incentive to not gather sticks for the rest of the tribe. God didn't kill the man....The Jews insisted on law. They entered the Old Covenant. The law was their master and hence they had to answer it. Does the OT bring up that they desired grace instead? No! Why? Pride...pride in their law keeping even upon death.... Quote
cardw Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Quote: God didn't kill the man....The Jews insisted on law. That's not what it says... "Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp. So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the LORD commanded Moses." God had an option here since the Jews were asking God what they should do. It appears that the LORD ordered this. Here is a video that expresses this nonsense in a much better way than I can explain here. What Jesus would NOT do. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Robert Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Quote: God didn't kill the man....The Jews insisted on law. That's not what it says... "Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man must die." ....It appears that the LORD ordered this. Yes, it appears...but.... Why would God say such a thing? Because the Jews had made the law their master and under it the penalty for sin was death....Under grace this man would have lived.... Quote
LifeHiscost Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Here is a video that expresses this nonsense in a much better way than I can explain here. What Jesus would NOT do. My understanding of the Scripture goes beyond cartoons written by perverse men who wish to mock God as less loving than His Son, Who also is God. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son..."John 3:16-18 NKJV And while these same perverse men choose to drive the nails deeper, God's love remains unflinching, deeply saddened that many believe the lies of the adversary to their own loss. "Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked? says the Lord, and not rather that he should turn from his evil way and return [to his God] and live?"Ezekiel 18:23 AMP Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members phkrause Posted November 19, 2009 Members Posted November 19, 2009 Good point LifeHiscost. And besides, that sounds like satan not God. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Guest Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Yep, you're right pk. Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Quote
Moderators John317 Posted November 19, 2009 Author Moderators Posted November 19, 2009 No one can stop sinning. It's certainly true that no one can stop sinning without God's help. But with God's help, all things are possible. Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." He wouldn't have said that if she couldn't possibly stop sinning. Romans 6: 1, 15 also show that sin is a choice. Quote: This is why Jesus came. I agree. Jesus came in order to free us from slavery to sin. He didn't come just in order to free us from the consequences of sin but to free us from the reign of sin in our lives. See Romans 6: 1-14. When He appears the second time, He will free us from the very presence of sin. He also came for the purpose of showing that when we are united with God by His Spirit, we can obey God's commandments. Quote: Anyone who believes you can achieve righteous in their flesh needs to take a second look at the scriptures. I agree that no one obey God or achieve righteousness by works of the flesh. That's the lesson we learn in Romans 6 through 8. The man of Romans 7 is trying to obey God in the flesh, apart from the Holy Spirit and apart from a relationship with Christ. Romans 6 and 8 describe the experience of the believer in union with Christ through the power of the Holy Spirit. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Members phkrause Posted November 19, 2009 Members Posted November 19, 2009 Not only that Richard, we have no idea why Moses or the other prophets, etc. wrote what they wrote about why God ordered or allowed them to kill, mind you I said kill and not murder, the people that they did. I remember reading somewhere in one of EGWs books that God had already judged them and found them wanting. Its kind of like when Belshasar was king or co-regent of Babylon and the finger wrote on the wall telling him that he had been weighed in the balances and been found wanting. pk Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
LifeHiscost Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Yep, you're right pk. Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! [Pkrause=quote] And besides, that sounds like satan not God. Quote Lift Jesus up!!
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 He didn't come just in order to free us from the consequences of sin but to free us from the reign of sin in our lives. These aren't two different things. Freeing us from the reign of sin in our lives is what frees us from the consequences of sin. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Moderators John317 Posted November 19, 2009 Author Moderators Posted November 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 He didn't come just in order to free us from the consequences of sin but to free us from the reign of sin in our lives. These aren't two different things. Freeing us from the reign of sin in our lives is what frees us from the consequences of sin. Freeing us from the consequences of sin is comparable to justification (imputed righteousness), whereas freeing us from the reign of sin is comparable to sanctification (imparted righteousness). Sanctification is the process of separating sin from us-- becoming holy-- through the power of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness by faith-- "the robe of Christ's righteousness"-- includes both the imputed righteousness and the imparted righteousness of Christ. Take the example of the people mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. If the thief repents and confesses his sins and comes to Christ in faith, he is forgiven and declared righteous. He is put in right relationship with Christ. At that point God also sets this man apart for His possession and His service. He is sanctified. But if he is truly justified and sanctified, the thief will become a former thief, and will no longer be committing the sin of stealing. If he continues the practice of stealing-- allowing sin to continue to reign as king in his life-- it is proof that His repentance was not genuine. The Holy Spirit in the thief's life will bring about a change. He will separate that sin from his life, and then as he continues in his walk with Christ, he will go on separating other sins from his life as the Holy Spirit brings conviction to his heart and empowering him to live for God. He's no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness. Study 1 John 1: 5 to 2: 6 and Romans 6-8. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
cardw Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Quote: Why would God say such a thing? Because the Jews had made the law their master and under it the penalty for sin was death....Under grace this man would have lived.... Well first of all this is not god speaking because the OT is simply an iron age text trying to make sense of the world they live in. The whole blood sacrifice myth is iron age thinking. This might hold water if this was an isolated incident, but this OT god does all kinds of childish and petulant things which say nothing about god, but simply reveal the immaturity of the OT writers. To me it is so obvious that these are made up ideas of men, not any god. That's why god would not say such a thing. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
cardw Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Quote: My understanding of the Scripture goes beyond cartoons written by perverse men who wish to mock God as less loving than His Son, Who also is God. The point of these cartoons is that if this was about anyone else besides the god of the OT it would be obvious we were talking about a perverse god. Quote Rich http://tiny.cc/CM2j8
Robert Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Jesus told the woman caught in adultery to "Go and sin no more." He wouldn't have said that if she couldn't possibly stop sinning. Jesus wasn't telling her to be blameless...not even the Holy Spirit points out every unknown sin. Why would Jesus load her down with perfectionism? Answer: He wouldn't! A good version has the definite article "the" before "sin". "The sin" refers to sexual sins or more specifically "adultery" (prostitution, etc). He was telling her to leave her life of sexual sins.... Rob Quote
Robert Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 The man of Romans 7 is trying to obey God in the flesh, apart from the Holy Spirit and apart from a relationship with Christ. False! The man of Romans 7 hasn't learned to walk in the Spirit (and I might add none of us do it perfectly)....His faith is "in Christ" and hence there's no condemnation even though he is failing to live the good life. To say opposite gives no hope to those who fall frequently and such a stance promotes legalism. Rob Quote
Robert Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 "the robe of Christ's righteousness"-- includes both the imputed righteousness and the imparted righteousness of Christ. False! It's only imputed....What we experience is imparted, but this isn't what saves. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc These aren't two different things. Freeing us from the reign of sin in our lives is what frees us from the consequences of sin. Freeing us from the consequences of sin is comparable to justification (imputed righteousness)' date=' whereas freeing us from the reign of sin is comparable to sanctification (imparted righteousness). Sanctification is the process of separating sin from us-- becoming holy-- through the power of the Holy Spirit. Righteousness by faith-- "the robe of Christ's righteousness"-- includes both the imputed righteousness and the imparted righteousness of Christ. Take the example of the people mentioned in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. If the thief repents and confesses his sins and comes to Christ in faith, he is forgiven and declared righteous. He is put in right relationship with Christ. At that point God also sets this man apart for His possession and His service. He is sanctified. But if he is truly justified and sanctified, the thief will become a former thief, and will no longer be committing the sin of stealing. If he continues the practice of stealing-- allowing sin to continue to reign as king in his life-- it is proof that His repentance was not genuine. The Holy Spirit in the thief's life will bring about a change. He will separate that sin from his life, and then as he continues in his walk with Christ, he will go on separating other sins from his life as the Holy Spirit brings conviction to his heart and empowering him to live for God. He's no longer a slave to sin but a slave to righteousness. [/quote'] The inevitable result of sin is death. Remove sin, and you remove death. Or, to put it another way: Quote: 21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. (Matt. 1:12) Saving people from their sins saves them from death. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 19, 2009 Posted November 19, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 "the robe of Christ's righteousness"-- includes both the imputed righteousness and the imparted righteousness of Christ. False! It's only imputed....What we experience is imparted, but this isn't what saves. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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