Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Guest]

It was the Roman Catholic church that used force, It was foretold in the Bible, and came to pass right on schedule. And it is going to happen again in this country and world wide. It is not over yet.

But the SDA church has never forced anybody to do anything. When the time comes we will be the ones martyred for our faith.

[wayfinder]

But we don't agree on certain points Richard, and there are conservative, liberal and progressive SDAs. There are historic and reformed SDAs. Are "we" all going to be martyred for our individual preferences of belief? What about Baptists, Lutheren, Nazerine and Evangelicals? Are not all these people saved by faith and are martyred for their faith?

[Woody]

Quote:

I haven't found that to be true at all. This whole discussion reveals that. I mean there is even a debate around whether or not Robert is going to be saved. That pales to the accusation that I'm arrogant. LOL

Do we get to vote ?? Or have a poll ?

[Guest]

But we don't agree on certain points Richard, and there are conservative, liberal and progressive SDAs. There are historic and reformed SDAs. Are "we" all going to be martyred for our individual preferences of belief? What about Baptists, Lutheren, Nazerine and Evangelicals? Are not all these people saved by faith and are martyred for their faith?

No. And not all SDAs will be, but there will be some. It's going to come down to loyalty, and the Sabbath. The Sabbath issue will be brought to the forefront.

Why would sunday keepers be affected, they're not the ones who will be bucking the system.

Wayf, are you telling me you were raised SDA and don't know these things?

[wayfinder]

Richard, I was raised SDA and was taught that I would be killed by my Catholic friends because I would refuse to worship on Sunday, which is the mark of the beast. My SDA up-bringing was strict law abiding, I knew clearly what I was allowed to do (which wasn't much) and what I was not allowed. It was somewhere around 1978 I was attending a Sabbath school class at the Riverside Jurupa SDA church that I heard that salvation was by grace and not works. I was told that there was nothing I could do to be righteous and acknowledge that fact and accept Christ's righteousness to cover my sin. This blew me away, I lived my early life in a lie not being able to do the fun things when all along I was saved by grace. Needless to say I believed it was wonderful I was secure in my salvation, but what about my Catholic friends who were still going to kill me during the great tribulation?

If we are saved by grace, apart from works of the law, then what is the importance of keeping the seventh day Sabbath? The Sabbath is the forth commandment in the law, which is impossible to keep, right. Keeping the forth commandment is not a test or requirement for salvation, if we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation by faith allows all who believe in Jesus Christ and accept Him as their personal Savior, to be saved. I have had Seventh-day Adventist pastors tell me that there will be protestants in heaven who continue to practice their own denominational preferences. I have had SDA pastors say that there is no difference between a Baptist, Lutheren, Evangelical, or any other Christian fellowship and Seventh-day Adventist. I have said I can think of one big one THE SEVENTH DAY SABBATH! But then were saved by grace apart from works of the law, are we not.

[Guest]

I'm sorry you had a messed up childhood, but there is no need to stay confused on this issue.

You are saved by grace through faith, but that dosn't mean you can just chuck the law. The very faith that saves you is what makes it possible to keep the law. If you have that faith in the merits of Christ, then you will keep the law.

Even so faith, if it has not works, is dead, being alone.

Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Jas 2:18

Jas 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, though a man says he has faith, and has not works? can faith save him?

[LifeHiscost]

They are free from hope of reward

Rob

Opinion only and not consistent with the many overtures of appeals by Jesus involving reward.

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."John 10:10 NKJV

"“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’"Revelation 2:7 NKJV

"To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."Revelation 3:21 NKJV

" And now abide faith, hope, love...."

1 Corinthians 13:13 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom 4:6

"And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?"James 5:23-25 KJV

When all are accepted, all will be fulfilled. When one is rejected, none will be sufficient.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

[cardw]

It was the Roman Catholic church that used force, It was foretold in the Bible, and came to pass right on schedule. And it is going to happen again in this country and world wide. It is not over yet.

But the SDA church has never forced anybody to do anything. When the time comes we will be the ones martyred for our faith.

As long as you believe in a god who is going to destroy everyone who doesn't do it his way, the potential for violence remains.

Isn't your goal to become like your god?

Every organization, when it comes into power, will use whatever force is available, whether that be political, social, or physical, to maintain its existence.

That is the nature of organized Abrahamic religions.

It wasn't only the Catholic church, it was the early church, the Luthern Church, the Greek Orthodox church, the Puritans, the Pilgrims, the Anglican, etc. etc.

[LifeHiscost]

But cardw the Bible doesn't say all will be roses. It does say that if you have Jesus you will have peace in whatever situation you are in. Not that nothing bad will ever happen to you. Just read Job and see who's doing all this. And as far as all christians not agreeing with each other, I can't answer that. All I do know is that we are all not at the same place in our walk with the Lord. So there definitely will be difference's of opinion's. And do all these difference's make christians look bad, I don't think so. It seems to me that, yes we should be happier than other religions, but we are not, and I do believe that that is unfortunate. When I go to or see some funerals where people are just howling with the loss of a loved one, I think in my mind, don't they know that this is not the end? Don't they know they will be reunite, didn't they except Jesus as there Lord and Savour? So why the wailing? I can understand being sad and crying. I still miss my father but I know someday when Jesus comes to get us we will be reunited.

pk

[cardw]

But we don't agree on certain points Richard, and there are conservative, liberal and progressive SDAs. There are historic and reformed SDAs. Are "we" all going to be martyred for our individual preferences of belief? What about Baptists, Lutheren, Nazerine and Evangelicals? Are not all these people saved by faith and are martyred for their faith?

Actually there are about 40,000 different forms of Christianity. To me this is because the Bible is so poorly written. It would seem that if some all powerful god wanted to communicate his message, the form would be a lot more clear and contain something more advanced than a solution based on a blood sacrifice.

It only exists because we have this long history of violence associated with believing in this iron age ethical system. If Christianity never became the Roman state religion, it would have disappeared long ago.

Simply look at the tenacity of Islam. We have no problem seeing that it is only sustained by cultural violence. Christianity has looked the same for most of its existence. It has only been the gift of the age of reason that we are free from its hold on the human race.

[LifeHiscost]

But the SDA church has never forced anybody to do anything. When the time comes we will be the ones martyred for our faith.

Agreed, Richard, however we will have much to look forward to for giving our life for the cause of Christ. Jesus is alive and has the keys to heaven and hell. He who refuses to accept those keys will only be able to receive the results of what he has continuing power over. And as far as I know, the keys that remove the threat of death are only in the hands of Jesus.

But I knew you knew that all the time anyway.

"I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death." Revelation 1:18 NKJV

Blessings!

[Woody]

Quote:

Actually there are about 40,000 different forms of Christianity. To me this is because the Bible is so poorly written. It would seem that if some all powerful god wanted to communicate his message, the form would be a lot more clear

I have to admit ... this is a good point and one that I have long wrestled with. But with no apparent answer. Now ... let the stones begin. I know ... I just don't allow the Holy Spirit in my life. Oh Yeah. But it's not ME that I am concerned about. It is the rest of you folks that I worry for. You all need to interpret like I do.

[Robert]

It's going to come down to loyalty, and the Sabbath. The Sabbath issue will be brought to the forefront.

No, the gospel will be brought to the forefront! It will be restored.....The Sabbath will then be a sign of that truth.

When Matt. 24:14 will finally become a reality, the human race will be polarized into only two groups — believers and unbelievers. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God just as circumcision was to Abraham [Rom. 4:11]. And Sunday will become the Mark of the Beast [Rev. 14:9,10 (12:9-12; 13:4)].

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

It was the Roman Catholic church that used force, It was foretold in the Bible, and came to pass right on schedule. And it is going to happen again in this country and world wide. It is not over yet.

But the SDA church has never forced anybody to do anything. When the time comes we will be the ones martyred for our faith.

As long as you believe in a god who is going to destroy everyone who doesn't do it his way, the potential for violence remains.

Isn't your goal to become like your god?

Every organization, when it comes into power, will use whatever force is available, whether that be political, social, or physical, to maintain its existence.

That is the nature of organized Abrahamic religions.

It wasn't only the Catholic church, it was the early church, the Luthern Church, the Greek Orthodox church, the Puritans, the Pilgrims, the Anglican, etc. etc.

[LifeHiscost]

I rest my case.

You may have rested your case, cardw, but Jesus hasn't rested it.

And not till the last breath is drawn will He stop making effort to win you to His way of life. Actually the only way of life that is available for eternity.

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."John 10:10 NKJV

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

John 3:16-18 NKJV

Have you ever really made a step toward Jesus, cardw, with the idea in mind that you just wanted to know Him as He revealed Himself to you, not as others tried to reveal Him to you?

I recently heard about this sweater that some were wearing that had the logo, "Jesus, please save me from your followers". I would suggest your efforts are to just get away from religion that has little to do with the Man, Jesus. And I believe that if you were to willingly put yourself in His hands, He would make Himself known to you in ways that would go far beyond meeting your needs, knowledge that would enable you to love your enemies, even those from within the house of God, though we would hope most whom you might find insufferable do have good intention, no matter how misplaced.

"And this is eternal life: [it means] to know (to perceive, recognize, become acquainted with, and understand) You, the only true and real God, and [likewise] to know Him, Jesus [as the] Christ (the Anointed One, the Messiah), Whom You have sent."John 3:17 AMP parenthesis brackets theirs LHC

I can assure you, to know Him Who is Love, will transform your ability and desire into that same love.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

When the time comes we will be the ones martyred for our faith.

And I would like to suggest, not all believers will be called to that extreme. The final death decree for the ones who have endured to the end, will find deliverance before the blow is struck.

It is true there are some, even in this day, who are asked to lay down their life for the Master. However, the final death decree will be stayed by the appearance of the Son of Glory in the Heavens. Even so, come Lord Jesus!

"“Whatever I tell you in the dark, speak in the light; and what you hear in the ear, preach on the housetops. And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will."Matthew 10:27-29 NKJV

Blessings!

[Guest]

Amen

[cardw]

Quote:

From my point of view, that things are the way they are, with lack of harmony in regards to interpreting God's communications to us, makes perfect sense. This is because I see the Bible to be a spiritual book, meaning it requires spiritual discernment to interpret correctly. It's also because God has created us with free will, which is very important to Him, allowing us to misinterpret Him (e.g., understanding Him to be violent, when He's not).

Understanding the OT god as violent is not a matter of free will. Its a matter of fact. It is not hard to demonstrate that god takes credit for very violent acts against people on the earth by reading the OT.

Now, I admit, if "spiritualize" these stories as non factual we might get around the idea that god is not violent in the Bible, but the free will argument really fails to address the great suffering on this planet apparently allowed under the watchful eye of an omnipotent god. Because this god in the exercise of his free will chose to allow great suffering, which in the ethics of Christianity would be a sin of omission.

There are simply too many loose ends for any of this to work.

[LifeHiscost]

Isn't your goal to become like your god?

There is a difference between wanting to become like God and wanting to become God. To become like God, which we cannot become without Divine intervention, is worthy. To want to become God is blasphemous.

"For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.’

Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,

To the lowest depths of the Pit."Isaiah 14:13-15 NKJV

"I will make myself like the Most High.'" V 14 NASB

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

John 14:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

[cardw]

Quote:

You may have rested your case, cardw, but Jesus hasn't rested it.

And not till the last breath is drawn will He stop making effort to win you to His way of life.

Now I have nothing against a way of life suggested by Jesus, but it is much more enjoyable without all the shame and fear and threats of violence.

Quote:

Have you ever really made a step toward Jesus, cardw, with the idea in mind that you just wanted to know Him as He revealed Himself to you, not as others tried to reveal Him to you?

For the first 17 years of my life I was a believer. I spent another 20 years trying to make sense of Christianity. I gave it every chance. In the end I observe that it made my life miserable and it made the lives of many of the people I observed miserable. And it was not because I wasn't doing "true" Christianity.

It was only when I left that living a life that Jesus suggests makes any sense. I personally think that Jesus was hijacked by neo platonic philosophers and that he probably was much more mystical or early Christianity was a mystery religion and no actual Jesus existed. If you read the history it is so apparent that there is no god revealed truth here. It is all made up by men for cultural and societal reasons. There is a natural philosophy that emerges in every culture much like the evolution of the physical body.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Isn't your goal to become like your god?

There is a difference between wanting to become like God and wanting to become God. To become like God, which we cannot become without Divine intervention, is worthy. To want to become God is blasphemous.

"For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,

I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;

I will also sit on the mount of the congregation

On the farthest sides of the north;

I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,

I will be like the Most High.’

Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,

To the lowest depths of the Pit."Isaiah 14:13-15 NKJV

"I will make myself like the Most High.'" V 14 NASB

"Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works."

John 14:8-10 NKJV

Blessings!

Amen Life.

[Jeannieb43]

God still loves you, cardw, and so do I. [i just went to your profile to confirm my memory that you're a musician. I've read many of your posts -- and I see that I'm listed as one of your "Buddies." Hope I can remain so.]

The reason this expression of belief [or non-belief] doesn't frighten me is that I know Jesus came and died to ensure us of the right to exercise our free will. ["Let every man be convinced in his own mind..." or something like that.] God created us all with freedom of choice. We are free to decide for or against God based on our own information. However, I believe we should continue to input all sources of information as long as possible--never stop studying about Him. I believe God will save every one of us, unless we actively resist Him. And if we actively resist, I believe God will weep over us as we are being left on this old earth to be consumed by the fire of His glory.

This may seem simplistic to some, but it is the picture I've developed in my mind. We have such a loving God, who longs to take us all home to live with Him for eternity. I just want to be there, along with all my friends from C/A.

[LifeHiscost]

No, the gospel will be brought to the forefront! It will be restored.....The Sabbath will then be a sign of that truth.

When Matt. 24:14 will finally become a reality, the human race will be polarized into only two groups — believers and unbelievers. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God just as circumcision was to Abraham [Rom. 4:11]. And Sunday will become the Mark of the Beast [Rev. 14:9,10 (12:9-12; 13:4)].

Praise God! Some are of the opinion we are already there or right on the precipice. I'm of the opinion we are on the precipice.

Whether we are pushed off or learn how to walk on water depends upon whose hand we are holding.

"My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."John 10:29 KJV

Blessings!