Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jesus wasn't telling her to be blameless...not even the Holy Spirit points out every unknown sin. Why would Jesus load her down with perfectionism? Answer: He wouldn't!

A good version has the definite article "the" before "sin". "The sin" refers to sexual sins or more specifically "adultery" (prostitution' date=' etc). He was telling her to leave her life of sexual sins....

Rob

So your conjecturing, Robert, that Jesus really said, "Go and do not sin the sin of sexual sin" as opposed to what the Scripture says, which your conclusion really infers that Jesus said also, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop, especially the little ones."

That, of course, would mean this Word has no relevance either.

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10 KJV

Just in case you wish to plead context, the above Scripture defines a principle that is perpetual for all circumstances except perhaps this one.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."James 4:17 KJV

And I'm not sure about it, for even unknown sin leads to acceptance of further indiscretions.

Regards! [/quote']

Without reference to Robert's point, this seems particularly unfair to me:

Quote:

So your conjecturing, Robert, that Jesus really said, "Go and do not sin the sin of sexual sin" as opposed to what the Scripture says, which your conclusion really infers(sic) that Jesus said also, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop, especially the little ones."

That, of course, would mean this Word has no relevance either.

Robert isn't saying it's OK to sin. I've not heard him say that at all. He certainly didn't say this is what Jesus was saying. So to construe his words in this way does not seem fair to him.

It also seems unfair to me to say "as opposed to what the Scripture says." The Scripture simply says "go and sin no more more." It's up to us to interpret what the meaning of Jesus' words should be, but to characterize the idea of anyone else who has a different idea than ours as "not what the Scripture does" I think isn't fair.

(I'm not agreeing with Robert's position, btw. I'm just commenting on something I perceived as not fair to him)

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Richard Holbrook

I do believe Robert is one of those sin till Jesus comes Christians.

I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt though. I don't believe him to ascribe to the belief that all will continue in deliberate, purposeful, sinful conduct. OTOH it does appear he has the belief that there remains in the human psyche,

at least till Jesus comes, uncontrollable sin.

I personally don't believe there are people before his coming that are without sin, unless of course we can say part of the Holy Scriptures are not true sometime prior to His coming. Maybe that's another thread of long discussion.

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 KJV

Blessings!

After commenting on something I perceived you're saying which wasn't fair, it's indeed a pleasure to see what you wrote here. (i.e. I would like to give him the benefit of the doubt though. The comment you were responding to was certainly unfair to Robert: "I do believe Robert is one of those sin till Jesus comes Christians.")

Robert likes Sequeira, which should be clear from his posts. Sequeira's theology is pretty well known, and he definitely doesn't believe in "sin till Jesus comes." Robert is simply arguing that the basis of our salvation is only the imputation of Christ's righteousness. He's not saying it's OK to sin.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Jesus wasn't telling her to be blameless...not even the Holy Spirit points out every unknown sin. Why would Jesus load her down with perfectionism? Answer: He wouldn't!

A good version has the definite article "the" before "sin". "The sin" refers to sexual sins or more specifically "adultery" (prostitution' date=' etc). He was telling her to leave her life of sexual sins....

Rob [/quote']

So your conjecturing, Robert, that Jesus really said, "Go and do not sin the sin of sexual sin" as opposed to what the Scripture says, which your conclusion really infers that Jesus said also, "The other sins aren't necessary for you to stop, especially the little ones."

That, of course, would mean this Word has no relevance either.

"He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much." Luke 16:10 KJV

Just in case you wish to plead context, the above Scripture defines a principle that is perpetual for all circumstances except perhaps this one.

"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."James 4:17 KJV

And I'm not sure about it, for even unknown sin leads to acceptance of further indiscretions.

Regards!

AMEN!!

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a "robe or righteousness" quote I cited earlier:

Quote:

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Revelation 19:8; Ephesians 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Revelation 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.(COL 310)

It seems to me this must be including both imputed and imparted righteousness.

[LifeHiscost]

The Scripture simply says "go and sin no more." It's up to us to interpret what the meaning of Jesus' words should be...

The underlined above is exactly the way some would like it.

However that conclusion is not scriptural. And using the English language as proper to use in understanding what words mean, I accept prophecy as meaning the inspired declaration of Divine will and purpose.

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation."

2 Peter 1:20 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth" John 16:13 KJV

There is rhetoric being used that seems more interested insuring that certain beliefs be excluded for heavenly candidates, specifically contrary to the Word of Christ, which leads me to believe the absence of the Holy Spirit's guidance in certain cases.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."John 15:10 KJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Here's a "robe or righteousness" quote I cited earlier:

Quote:

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Revelation 19:8; Ephesians 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Revelation 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.(COL 310)

It seems to me this must be including both imputed and imparted righteousness.

Agreed, which also is consistent with the Scriptures.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:18 NKJV

Blessings!

[cardw]

Quote:

I'm sorry you don't believe the Holy Word, cardw. But I do know He loves you beyond anything I could suggest to you. When you find Him to be the Savior of your soul, you will also find the peace that passes all understanding.

This is another example of claims without evidence. You claim that having Jesus as your Savior gives you peace, but this whole dialog proves that there is no peace even among Christians. You can't even agree on how to be saved or even if you are saved.

That is hardly peace.

[Robert]

Robert is simply arguing that the basis of our salvation is only the imputation of Christ's righteousness. He's not saying it's OK to sin.

Right...but we do sin, we do give into the flesh....We fall short of God's agape love. When we sin and we know it, we should acknowledge our sins to Christ. This allows Him to keep His robe of righteousness around us....

Rob

[Robert]

Agreed, which also is consistent with the Scriptures.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:18 NKJV

Blessings!

This verse doesn't prove the imparted righteousness. Yes, there is such a thing as imparted righteousness, but this verse actually proves the imputed righteousness. Note the phrase "in Christ"! "In Christ" all things have become new. In Him you are sinless...you don't even retain your nature. You are blameless before the law. In yourself all things haven't become new. You still retain your lower nature.....You still sin...you still fall short. What has become new in the believer takes place in the mind/heart. The law of agape is being written in the mind. You are experiencing righteousness, but to say "all things have become new" in you is incorrect. Again, you have a new, glorified humanity "in Christ". This can be seen in Eph 2:6

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus"

[Robert]

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess [future tense]. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Revelation 19:8; Ephesians 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Revelation 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.(COL 310)

No! Our ticket to heaven is only the imparted righteousness of Christ. In the judgment Christ will use your works to prove your faith. It's not how good you've been or even how many wonderful works you've done...it's where do you works originate.

Those who have been clothed by the imputed righteousness of Christ & have the absolute assurance of salvation produce genuine fruits. Genuine fruits (imparted righteousness) have no self-interests in them. They are free from hope of reward or fear of punishment. They are done with a correct motive.

So Christ uses these fruits to proves one's faith is genuine and He cloths such believers in His own imputed righteousness.

Rob

[Robert]

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God’s people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. “Are these,” he says, “the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them.” But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands [imputed righteousness]. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [PK 589]

[Just*]

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Rom 3:24

For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Heb 10:14

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8-9

Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Rom 3:28

God imputeth righteousness without works, Rom 4:6

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a statement from Waggoner:

Let no one cavil over the expression, "putting on righteousness," as though such a thing were hypocrisy. Some, with a singular lack of appreciation of the value of the gift of righteousness, have said that they did not want righteousness that was "put on," but that they wanted only that righteousness which comes from the life, thus depreciating the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe. We agree with their idea insofar as it is a protest against hypocrisy, a form of godliness without the power, but we would have the reader bear this thought in mind: It makes a vast deal of difference who puts the righteousness on. If we attempt to put it on ourselves, then we really get on nothing but a filthy garment, no matter how beautiful it may look to us, but when Christ clothes us with it, it is not to be despised nor rejected. Mark the expression in Isaiah: "He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness." The righteousness with which Christ covers us is righteousness that meets the approval of God, and if God is satisfied with it, surely men ought not to try to find anything better.

But we will carry the figure a step further and that will relieve the matter of all difficulty. Zech. 3:1-5 furnishes the solution. It reads thus:

And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Angel. And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the Angel of the Lord stood by."

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away. And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17. And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.

The new heart is a heart that loves righteousness and hates sin. It is a heart of willingness to be led into the paths of righteousness. It is such a heart as the Lord wished Israel to have when he said, "O that there were such a heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children forever!" Deut. 5:29. In short, it is a heart free from the love of sin as well as from the guilt of sin. But what makes a man sincerely desire the forgiveness of his sins? It is simply his hatred of them and his desire for righteousness, which hatred and desire have been enkindled by the Holy Spirit.

The Spirit strives with all men. It comes as a reprover. When its voice of reproof is regarded, then it at once assumes the office of comforter. The same submissive, yielding disposition that leads the person to accept the reproof of the Spirit, will also lead him to follow the teachings of the Spirit, and Paul says that "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom. 8:14.

Again, what brings justification or the forgiveness of sins? It is faith, for Paul says, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Rom. 5:1. The righteousness of God is given unto and put upon everyone that believeth. Rom. 3:22. But this same exercise of faith makes the person a child of God; for, says the apostle Paul again, "Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:26.

The fact that everyone whose sins are forgiven is at once a child of God is shown in Paul's letter to Titus. He first brings to view the wicked condition in which we once were and then says (Titus 3:4-7):

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward men appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Note that it is by being justified by His grace that we are made heirs. We have already learned from Rom. 3:24, 25 that this justification by His grace is through our faith in Christ, but Gal. 3:26 tells us that faith in Christ Jesus makes us children of God; therefore, we know that whoever has been justified by God's grace-- has been forgiven--is a child and an heir of God.

This shows that there is no ground for the idea that a person must go through a sort of probation and attain to a certain degree of holiness before God will accept him as His child. He receives us just as we are. It is not for our goodness that He loves us but because of our need. He receives us, not for the sake of anything that He sees in us but for His own sake and for what He knows that His Divine power can make of us. It is only when we realise the wonderful exaltation and holiness of God and the fact that He comes to us in our sinful and degraded condition to adopt us into His family that we can appreciate the force of the apostle's exclamation, "Behold what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God." 1 John 3:1. Everyone upon whom this honour has been bestowed will purify himself, even as He is pure. (Christ and His Righteousness)

[pnattmbtc]

me:The Scripture simply says "go and sin no more." It's up to us to interpret what the meaning of Jesus' words should be...

R:The underlined above is exactly the way some would like it.

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

By the wedding garment in the parable is represented the pure, spotless character which Christ's true followers will possess [future tense]. To the church it is given "that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white," "not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Revelation 19:8; Ephesians 5:27. The fine linen, says the Scripture, "is the righteousness of saints." Revelation 19:8. It is the righteousness of Christ, His own unblemished character, that through faith is imparted to all who receive Him as their personal Saviour.(COL 310)

No! Our ticket to heaven is only the imparted righteousness of Christ. In the judgment Christ will use your works to prove your faith. It's not how good you've been or even how many wonderful works you've done...it's where do you works originate.

Those who have been clothed by the imputed righteousness of Christ & have the absolute assurance of salvation produce genuine fruits. Genuine fruits (imparted righteousness) have no self-interests in them. They are free from hope of reward or fear of punishment. They are done with a correct motive.

So Christ uses these fruits to proves one's faith is genuine and He cloths such believers in His own imputed righteousness.

Rob

What specifically are you disagreeing with here?

[Woody]

Quote:

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It's simply reality. People interpret things differently, and it's arrogant on our part to think ours is the only right interpretation, and any other idea different than ours is "not what the Scripture says."

Yes. I have noticed this with conservatives. They tell you that you are not suppose to 'interpret' scripture and then they proceed to do just that and proclaim that their interpretation is the only correct one.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

It has nothing to do with liking or disliking. It's simply reality. People interpret things differently, and it's arrogant on our part to think ours is the only right interpretation, and any other idea different than ours is "not what the Scripture says."

Yes. I have noticed this with conservatives. They tell you that you are not suppose to 'interpret' scripture and then they proceed to do just that and proclaim that their interpretation is the only correct one.

Perhaps they're might be a somewhat higher percentage of this attitude among Conservatives, but I don't think this is a fair characterization as a general statement. We all need the grace of God to treat each other graciously.

[Woody]

I've never heard a liberal make that statement. Perhaps you have.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's something from the SOP, which goes along with what I quoted from Waggoner (especially that part I put in bold):

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175)

A couple of interesting things here. First of all, the general theme is how we are saved. That's the question she asks, and then she gives the answer. Secondly, notice that she says, " His love is drawing us to Himself" and that if we don't resist this drawing, we will be saved. Keeping this in mind helps us to keep a right perspective of things, I believe. Thirdly notice that being saved involves having the law written in the heart, or, as Waggoner puts it, receiving a new heart which loves righteousness.

To put this in a non-theological way, our problem is not being in harmony with God. By revealing His character and love, God is able to bring us back into harmony with Himself, if we do not reject that revelation. Here are a couple of SOP statements which speak to this theme:

Quote:

(M)an was deceived; his mind was darkened by Satan's sophistry. The height and depth of the love of God he did not know. For him there was hope in a knowledge of God's love. By beholding His character he might be drawn back to God. (DA 764)

Quote:

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God....

Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes.(ST 1/20/90)

[phkrause]

But cardw the Bible doesn't say all will be roses. It does say that if you have Jesus you will have peace in whatever situation you are in. Not that nothing bad will ever happen to you. Just read Job and see who's doing all this. And as far as all christians not agreeing with each other, I can't answer that. All I do know is that we are all not at the same place in our walk with the Lord. So there definitely will be difference's of opinion's. And do all these difference's make christians look bad, I don't think so. It seems to me that, yes we should be happier than other religions, but we are not, and I do believe that that is unfortunate. When I go to or see some funerals where people are just howling with the loss of a loved one, I think in my mind, don't they know that this is not the end? Don't they know they will be reunite, didn't they except Jesus as there Lord and Savour? So why the wailing? I can understand being sad and crying. I still miss my father but I know someday when Jesus comes to get us we will be reunited.

pk

[Woody]

TU

[olger]

"If our lives are filled with holy fragrance, if we honor God by having good thoughts toward others, and doing good deeds to bless others, it matters not whether we live in a cottage or a palace. Circumstances have but little to do with the experience of the soul.... A man at peace with God and his fellow men cannot be made miserable." 5T

[cardw]

Quote:

But cardw the Bible doesn't say all will be roses.

I don't believe I said that.

Quote:

It seems to me that, yes we should be happier than other religions, but we are not, and I do believe that that is unfortunate.

I found that to be true as well. So, to me, there is profound lack of evidence for the claims of Christianity. And I believe the reason is because Christian belief, despite all the claims of a loving god, is actually based on fear.

And the evidence for fear based belief within Christianity is huge.

Quote:

When I go to or see some funerals where people are just howling with the loss of a loved one, I think in my mind, don't they know that this is not the end?

I have gone to a number of funerals and experienced some of the most celebrational moments of my life. These were people who grasped life and lived it to its fullest. Their lives were full of moments and people. And many of these funerals were for non believers.

Christianity seems to be always looking to some future time of bliss and many Christians walk around like the world hates them. Maybe its because Christians are taught to hate the world.

Quote:

It does say that if you have Jesus you will have peace in whatever situation you are in.

I haven't found that to be true at all. This whole discussion reveals that. I mean there is even a debate around whether or not Robert is going to be saved. That pales to the accusation that I'm arrogant. LOL

On personal level, I haven't experienced more peace than when I ditched the whole struggle to know if I'm saved or not. Christians are even instructed to pursue that with fear, e.g. we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling.

I rest my case.

[Guest]

Good! It wasn't much of a case anyway. Just you trying to convince people that they don't have something that they know they do. That will never work and never has. Men with intellect far greater than yours have tried to convince Christians that what they have isn't real, but it can't be done.

I have the evidence of God's great power and love in my life, and nobody can take that away from me. It's absurd that anyone would try. Nor do I have to prove it to you or anyone else for it to be true. People who know what I used to be like know that it's true.

Now where is the debate as to whether Robert will be saved or not?

I don't believe it exists.

[cardw]

Quote:

Good! It wasn't much of a case anyway.

This is the an example of your high quality reasoning?

Quote:

Men with intellect far greater than yours have tried to convince Christians that what they have isn't real, but it can't be done.

That's true because many Christians don't respond to reason.

Quote:

I have the evidence of God's great power and love in my life, and nobody can take that away from me. It's absurd that anyone would try. Nor do I have to prove it to you or anyone else for it to be true. People who know what I used to be like know that it's true.

There all kinds of good reasons to live a better life than God's power. For one it reduces suffering and it often is simply growing up. One doesn't need to appeal to an imaginary friend to explain life changes.

On a personal level you can have the right to see it any way you want. Except as Christians you are obligated to share this story with everyone. At that point I do have a right to point out that I don't agree with your assessment.

In the past Christianity has used force to gain its ways and the point of freedom of speech is to prevent that type of thing from happening again.

You may not choose to use force to gain your view, but it is built into Christian belief as evidenced by the last 2000 years of violent history.

So I will continue to present alternative ideas as long as I have the freedom to do so.