Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[pnattmbtc]

I've never heard a liberal make that statement. Perhaps you have.

I suppose it depends on how one defines "liberal." For example, consider the human nature of Christ. Is one who believes Christ took the unfallen nature of Adam a "liberal" in the context of SDAism? If so, then I have heard "liberals" make that statement ("that statement" being basically that if you don't agree with me, then you're saying something the Scriptures do not say).

[LifeHiscost]

These are not proofs, they are simply quotations. Switching the meaning of words is not an intellectually honest way of discovering truth.

???

"Jesus saith unto him, I am...the truth"John 14:6 KJV

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."John 8:32 KJV

Regards!

[Guest]

We must never trust our own righteousness. We are incapable of producing true righteousness, and all we do is tainted with sin.

Here lies another deception. Because we obey certain requirements of God’s law, because we avoid certain sinful acts that others commit, we

then assume that we are obeying and are therefore righteous.

Seventh-day Adventists are in more jeopardy in this area than any other group of people I know of. It is because we can prove by the Bible that what we teach is truth that we say we are conforming and are therefore righteous. We have to be most careful about that because it might be a total deception. - Bill Lehman

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

In the first place, Jesus did not say, "the sin." The word for "sin" is a verb, not a noun.

I don't have that Greek Bible, but I saw the translation. Verse 7 read: "If any one of you is without the sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

We talked about this over a year ago, and I remember you said the same thing then.

As I recall, you also did not give the name of the translation at that time. I can only take this to mean that you don't know it and don't have access to it.

If you do some research, and even talk to a professor of NT Greek, you will find that it's impossible to correctly translate it as "the sin."

At John 8:7, the word in Greek is not "sin" [hamarthma] but "without sin" or "guiltless" [anamarthtos], (Strongs#361). It's a very big difference. If "sin" takes a definite article, then of course one could translate it as "the sin," but in this case, the word is "sinless" or "guiltless," and therefore it is impossible to translate it as "the sin" even if one understands "ho" to be a definite article.

Of my 15 or so printed Greek texts, all of them give the same reading here. There are no variants.

It's possible someone did translate it as "the sin," but it would be an error. I think it's far more likely you saw it translated this way in someone's printed sermons. Some preachers who have little knowledge of Greek sometimes make these kinds of mistakes. They see what looks like a definite article and they assume that's what it is, without examining it thoroughly.

Another good translation of this verse reads, "Let the guiltless man among you cast the first stone upon her." However, as you can see, it still is not "the sin."

[cardw]

We must never trust our own righteousness. We are incapable of producing true righteousness, and all we do is tainted with sin.

Here lies another deception. Because we obey certain requirements of God’s law, because we avoid certain sinful acts that others commit, we then assume that we are obeying and are therefore righteous.

[John317]

Quote:

Seventh-day Adventists are in more jeopardy in this area than any other group of people I know of. It is because we can prove by the Bible that what we teach is truth that we say we are conforming and are therefore righteous. We have to be most careful about that because it might be a total deception. - Bill Lehman

The fact that he states that Adventists have proven from the Bible what is true means they are already within a total deception. The Bible is not proof.

Notice that J.W. Lehman does not say the Bible is not truth or that it's an illusion that we teach the truth. He is saying we may be deceiving ourselves that "we are conforming" to the truth the Bible teaches. I think his point is well taken, and most Seventh-day Adventists would doubtless agree with him. But as to the truth of the Bible itself, Lehman had absolutely no doubt.

http://www.sdabeaconlight.org/

It's true that either you or Adventists are within total deception. Clearly we both can't be equally right. I'm willing to stake my entire life on the truth and reliability of the Bible. I don't know of anything else that comes even close to its degree of reliability. Certainly no individual's opinion is and I haven't found any human philosophy or science or other religious text that's more reliable, either.

[LifeHiscost]

Richard, I believe the conclusion reached above by Bill Lehman is only true of some Adventists, the same as some Christians knowledgeably believe the 7th day Sabbath is no longer the proper day of rest. That could even be many or most but, especially as the stereotype applies to Adventists, that is rapidly changing for the better as Jesus is seen as the only hope, instead of leaning upon any great wisdom we might have.

The below counsel is why I believe the transformation is greater today than at any other time in human history.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17 KJV

"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak"John 16:13 KJV

Originally Posted By: cardw

The fact that he states that Adventists have proven from the Bible what is true means they are already within a total deception. The Bible is not proof.

cardw, you are the first amoral person I have ever talked to,

speaking with conviction about the absence of God as strongly as Christians need to talk about His presence in their lives.

It is one of the major reasons why this principle below is so important, for the believer as well as the unbeliever. It allows all to see who is truly responsible for any lack in the individual who at last fails to receive the grace of Jesus, instead of seeing God as an arbitrary, vindictive tyrant.

"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind."Romans 14:5 NKJV

"...and if any of you do lack wisdom, let him ask from God, who is giving to all liberally, and not reproaching, and it shall be given to him;"James 1:5 YLT

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stand by and be devoted to the one and despise and be against the other. You cannot serve God and mammon (deceitful riches, money, possessions, or whatever is trusted in)."Matthew 6:24

AMP Parenthesis theirs LHC

Blessings!

[Robert]

“What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself.” TM 456.

And the main reason for the law, especially its spiritual component, is to make men realize that they are rotten to the core. The law not only examines men's outward conduct by also examines their motive for doing those works.

The Apostle Paul brings this out in 1 Cor 13 when he states that even if one gave all his possessions to the poor, but has not agape, the act is polluted with self.

So the law puts men's glory...his righteousness... in the dust so that he may be justified by faith in Christ's doing & dying. In fact that's what Gal chapter 3 is about....

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

No, the gospel will be brought to the forefront! It will be restored.....The Sabbath will then be a sign of that truth.

[/quote']

Agreed!

[LifeHiscost]

Notice that J.W. Lehman does not say the Bible is not truth or that it's an illusion that we teach the truth. He is saying we may be deceiving ourselves that "we are conforming" to the truth the Bible teaches. I think his point is well taken, and most Seventh-day Adventists would doubtless agree with him. But as to the truth of the Bible itself, Lehman had absolutely no doubt.

http://www.sdabeaconlight.org/

It's true that either you or Adventists are within total deception. Clearly we both can't be equally right. I'm willing to stake my entire life on the truth and reliability of the Bible. I don't know of anything else that comes even close to its degree of reliability. Certainly no individual's opinion is and I haven't found any human philosophy or science or other religious text that's more reliable, either.

Your post is much appreciated, John317. Truth is like that to the believer, no matter from who's voice or what book it comes.

Blessings!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't have that Greek Bible, but I saw the translation. Verse 7 read: "If any one of you is without the sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."

[/quote']

We talked about this over a year ago, and I remember you said the same thing then.

As I recall, you also did not give the name of the translation at that time. I can only take this to mean that you don't know it and don't have access to it.

If you do some research, and even talk to a professor of NT Greek, you will find that it's impossible to correctly translate it as "the sin."

At John 8:7, the word in Greek is not "sin" [hamarthma] but "without sin" or "guiltless" [anamarthtos], (Strongs#361). It's a very big difference. If "sin" takes a definite article, then of course one could translate it as "the sin," but in this case, the word is "sinless" or "guiltless," and therefore it is impossible to translate it as "the sin" even if one understands "ho" to be a definite article.

Of my 15 or so printed Greek texts, all of them give the same reading here. There are no variants.

It's possible someone did translate it as "the sin," but it would be an error. I think it's far more likely you saw it translated this way in someone's printed sermons. Some preachers who have little knowledge of Greek sometimes make these kinds of mistakes. They see what looks like a definite article and they assume that's what it is, without examining it thoroughly.

Another good translation of this verse reads, "Let the guiltless man among you cast the first stone upon her." However, as you can see, it still is not "the sin."

I just got off the phone with Jack Sequeira. Yes, it is translated correctly, i.e., "the sin". His reference is Nestles Greek Bible. Even then, the subject is adultery. Otherwise you have Christ placing a yoke of bondage upon this poor woman. Besides, if you look at the context, she didn't even repent yet Christ said "there's no condemnation"....This didn't mean He approved of this sin, but that "in Him" she stood perfect. This changed her....Robert Wieland makes the point that she fell back into this sin 7 more times...meaning until she learned to walk in the Spirit concerning adultery....So to load her down with the whole of the law is at best Old Covenant....

[Woody]

Thanks Rob.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, what you're suggesting doesn't look possible. This is Strong's 361:

Quote:

Original Word: ἀναμάρτητος

Transliteration: anamartétos

Phonetic Spelling: (an-am-ar'-tay-tos)

Short Definition: sinless

The word means "sinless", so putting a "the" in front of it simply means "the sinless one." So when Christ said, "ο αναμαρτητος υμων πρωτος τον λιθον επ αυτη βαλετω" He was saying "the sinless one of you, let him throw the first stone."

It's not saying literally, "he among you who is without sin" or "he among you who is without the sin" but "the sinless one among you."

This is the point John317 makes above, which looks to be correct.

[pnattmbtc]

That's weird. It look fine as I was typing it, and as I previewed it, but got messed up when posted. I'll repeat my post.

Robert, what you're suggesting doesn't look possible. This is Strong's 361:

Quote:

Original Word: anamartétos

Transliteration: anamartétos

Phonetic Spelling: (an-am-ar'-tay-tos)

Short Definition: sinless

The word means "sinless", so putting a "the" in front of it simply means "the sinless one." So when Christ said, "o anamartetos umon protos ep auten ton lithon baleto," He was saying "the sinless one of you, let him throw the first stone."

It's not saying literally, "he among you who is without sin" or "he among you who is without the sin" but "the sinless one among you."

This is the point John317 makes above, which looks to be correct.

[cardw]

Quote:

cardw, you are the first amoral person I have ever talked to, speaking with conviction about the absence of God as strongly as Christians need to talk about His presence in their lives.

Its because I'm not amoral. Charles Manson is amoral. Just because my moral convictions aren't based on the Bible doesn't mean that I don't have morality.

I happen to believe that reason based on human empathy is a far better basis for moral behavior. I find many of the actions taken by the Christian church based on its interpretation of the bible to be immoral.

Proof is not quotes from the bible. Proof requires evidence and a sound logical system of testing. The Bible does not do that. It simply contains claims.

[phkrause]

And I have to agree with you and John on this. My thoughts are that he's asking them "which one of them is without sin (any sin) because I would have to believe that the others around have all different kinds of sin, because they all couldn't be prostitute's could they?

pk

[pnattmbtc]

Robert Wieland makes the point that she fell back into this sin 7 more times...meaning until she learned to walk in the Spirit concerning adultery....So to load her down with the whole of the law is at best Old Covenant.

This isn't quite right. What Robert Wieland said is that she had 7 demons, and went to see Jesus seven times. The last demon, the hardest sin to remove, was the bitterness she felt against her uncle, who abused her, leading her into sin in the first place.

Two things to make clear. One is that he didn't say this as something indisputably true, but as an idea he had (for which there is some basis, from "The Desire of Ages." I can provide more info, if anyone is interested). The second is that he didn't say she fell back into adultery seven times, or even once.

This doesn't matter so much to your point, but I just wanted to do what I could to help Robert Wieland not be misquoted here.

[Guest]

John317 is a greek scholar, and he pointed out that it was impossible to translate it like that correctly. But if Jack says up is down, I guess it must be that way. Right Robert?

[pnattmbtc]

Jack Sequeira has a good knowledge of Greek. When once is dealing with a phone call being reported on the internet, all sorts of things could have happened; something could have been lost in translation, so to speak. I'd be careful not to say something negative about Jack Sequeira here, without knowing all the facts.

[Gail]

John317 is a greek scholar, and he pointed out that it was impossible to translate it like that correctly. But if Jack says up is down, I guess it must be that way. Right Robert?

You're such a tease...

[Guest]

I can't help it Gail. I call em like I see em.

Maybe I shouldn't do that.

[John317]

I just got off the phone with Jack Sequeira. Yes, it is translated correctly, i.e., "the sin". His reference is Nestles Greek Bible.

The Nestles Greek Bible is an excellent one.

Can you give any translation where John 8: 7 reads "the sin"? Did pastor Sequeira offer or suggest one?

The Nestles Greek Bible reads the same as any other printed Greek text of 8: 7: ho anamarthtos umon .... "The sinless man among you..." or "any one without sin..."

Strong's #361-- anamarthtos: sinless, that is without sin. It's pronominal adjective.

The word "sin" is Strong's #266 amartia. It's a noun.

As said before, all Greek Bibles read the same in that line. There are no variants.

You can look it up online for yourself and see Nestles Greek Text (the same in John 8: 7 as the Westcott and Hort Text) as well as about 5 other Greek texts: http://www.greeknewtestament.com/B43C008.htm

http://bible.org/diglot

Here is the 1894 edition of Scriveners Greek NT, which is identical with Nestles in the lines we're discussing: http://bibledbdata.org/onlinebibles/greek_1894_utf8/43_008.htm

King James Version

8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

American Standard Version

8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Bible in Basic English

8:7 Let him among you who is without sin be the first to send a stone at her.

Darby's English Translation

8:7 Let him that is without sin among you first cast the stone at her.

Douay Rheims

8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Noah Webster Bible

8:7 He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

Weymouth New Testament

8:7 'Let the sinless man among you be the first to throw a stone at her.'

World English Bible

8:7 'He who is without sin among you, let him throw the first stone at her.'

Young's Literal Translation

8:7 'The sinless of you -- let him first cast the stone at her;'

[phkrause]

The Complete Jewish Bible, translated by Dr. David H. Stern.

John 8:7 When they kept questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "The one of you who is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." So even a jew translates the greek the same as John has stated, which pretty much agrees with all the other texts that have been supplied.

pk

[John317]

Yes, I like Dr. Stern's translation, too. It really gives you a fresh, clear view of the Jewishness of the New Testament. Such as at Acts. 20: 7.

[John317]

if you look at the context, she didn't even repent yet Christ said "there's no condemnation"....This didn't mean He approved of this sin, but that "in Him" she stood perfect.

Christ read her heart and knew her sorrow for sin and her repentance. Check out this great quote about Mary:

Quote:

Jesus looked for a moment upon the scene,... He read the heart, and knew the character and life history of everyone in His presence. ....

The woman had stood before Jesus, cowering with fear. His words, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," had come to her as a death sentence. She dared not lift her eyes to the Saviour's face, but silently awaited her doom. In astonishment she saw her accusers depart speechless and confounded; then those words of hope fell upon her ear, "Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." Her heart was melted, and she cast herself at the feet of Jesus, sobbing out her grateful love, and with bitter tears confessing her sins.

This was to her the beginning of a new life, a life of purity and peace, devoted to the service of God. In the uplifting of this fallen soul, Jesus performed a greater miracle than in healing the most grievous physical disease; He cured the spiritual malady which is unto death everlasting. This penitent woman became one of His most steadfast followers. With self-sacrificing love and devotion she repaid His forgiving mercy.

In His act of pardoning this woman and encouraging her to live a better life, the character of Jesus shines forth in the beauty of perfect righteousness. While He does not palliate sin, nor lessen the sense of guilt, He seeks not to condemn, but to save. The world had for this erring woman only contempt and scorn; but Jesus speaks words of comfort and hope. The Sinless One pities the weakness of the sinner, and reaches to her a helping hand. While the hypocritical Pharisees denounce, Jesus bids her, "Go, and sin no more." DA 461, 462