Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: pnattmbtc

If it's possible then do it....Stop all self-seeking....Stop loving yourself. Instead live Christ's life of selflessness. Otherwise all you say is empty....Talking about perfection is meaningless...do it! Prove it~!

Please, Robert, what is it specifically you are taking issue with? Please don't just write something that I have no idea what your point is. What idea is it that you think is wrong?

I've asked you this several times now. I don't understand why you're not answering.

[cardw]

Quote:

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) [what EGW calls "worldliness" or "earthliness"] — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self

Well then we should include every church organization and religion.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

We are sinners, even now. Only "in Christ" do we stand complete.

If you wish to struggle under the burden of your sins after Jesus has promised for the confessor, to wash them away, this is

your prerogative. I choose to accept Jesus at His promise.

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."2 Corinthians 5:17 NKJV

Regards!

Have all things become new in you? I take it you no longer retain a sin nature? I take it that you do not fall short of God's love?

"In Christ" you are a new creature. "In Christ" you have a glorified sinless humanity! Context....

[Robert]

Quote:

Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) [what EGW calls "worldliness" or "earthliness"] — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self

Well then we should include every church organization and religion.

Yes, the world is also in the church.....Were you have "self" you have sin....Were you have pride, even spiritual pride, you have sin....When SDA brag that they are God's remnant, you have sin. Agape, which is opposite self-love, seeketh not her own. Or as EGW states, You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

[Robert]

I'm taking issue with this perfectionist attitude I see....

Rob

[pnattmbtc]

I'm taking issue with this perfectionist attitude I see....

Rob

Thanks for answering my question. If someone says they believe it's possible, by the grace of God and faith in Christ, to overcome sin, would you see this as a perfectionist attitude? Same question in regards to saying the 144,000 will be living without sin after Christ finishes His mediatorial work in the Most Holy Place.

[cardw]

Quote:

Yes, the world is also in the church.....Were you have "self" you have sin....Were you have pride, even spiritual pride, you have sin....When SDA brag that they are God's remnant, you have sin.

Well if we are to come out of the world then maybe its time to leave the church and all religion behind.

[LifeHiscost]

... I wasn't referring to theory. I was referring to practical proof.

I'm going to give a very simple practical example of the power of the Holy Spirit, in my own life, that is an ongoing reality giving me constant hope in all the other promises of deliverance Jesus is willing to give His followers.

I did not grow up in a Christian environment and it was a common experience to hear profanity on a regular basis, even among those professing to believe in God. To have avoided picking up the habit of profanity would have of itself been a miracle, but that miracle was not a gift that came from the onset of my Christian experience.

The beginnings of my desire to know Jesus as Lord were so slow in coming I cannot clearly remember a ouila experience that said to me, "Now you are a disciple of Christ". However there came a time when I came across the commandment "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain." At the time I was first convicted of my filthy tongue I didn't immediately strive to stop the profanity. OTOH it was increasingly evident in my consciousness of what God was asking of me.

It actually came to a head after being released from the U.S. Marine Corps, while driving somewhere with my mother and father, someone driving rapidly around us swerved in front of us almost clipping our car at high speed. Without thinking that my mother was present, and even Dad wouldn't have been so bold, I let out an invective that would have put Popeye the sailor to shame. My mother immediately became more concerned about my filthy tongue than any possible harm that might have been done by the errant driver of the other car. It was at that moment that I became conscious that I was leading a double life, one that I practiced before decent behaving people and another that I followed when alone or with others so inclined toward ungodly living.

While I didn't immediately stop all profanity, from that time forward including a forthcoming baptism as a Seventh Day Adventist Christian, I accepted the Holy Spirit into my life and the end result became a life so free from profanity that if I do use the word hell or damn, it is used to express a point and surprises other purists that I would do such a thing even though I have a definate objective in mind.

Just an example of how one of the Lords commands have given this person right to dwell among the beloved, without the slightest shred of conscious effort on my part at this time of my life. Praise God!

"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:

(For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)" 2 Pet 2:6-8 KJV

[Robert]

If someone says they believe it's possible, by the grace of God and faith in Christ, to overcome sin, would you see this as a perfectionist attitude?

It's a moot point....Even if one did he/she wouldn't be aware of it....

[Robert]

Quote:

Yes, the world is also in the church.....Were you have "self" you have sin....Were you have pride, even spiritual pride, you have sin....When SDA brag that they are God's remnant, you have sin.

Well if we are to come out of the world then maybe its time to leave the church and all religion behind.

I didn't say it's the whole of the Christian church....

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

John317:Do you believe that the grace of Christ is able to keep you from sinning? Is the Spirit-filled believer compelled to sin?

Robert:The question is not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation.

This is 100% not something Jack Sequeira would say. What I find a bit disconcerting here is that things are being said which give the impression that Sequeira's theology is something that it isn't. He has been discussed here, but not quoted.

What Sequeira would say is that the most important thing is the honor and glory of Christ, *not* our personal salvation. Certainly to say that a question like whether it's possible for the grace to keep us from sinning is "not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation" is not an idea of his.

[Robert]

Quote:

John317:Do you believe that the grace of Christ is able to keep you from sinning? Is the Spirit-filled believer compelled to sin?

Robert:The question is not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation.

This is 100% not something Jack Sequeira would say. What I find a bit disconcerting here is that things are being said which give the impression that Sequeira's theology is something that it isn't. He has been discussed here, but not quoted.

What Sequeira would say is that the most important thing is the honor and glory of Christ, *not* our personal salvation. Certainly to say that a question like whether it's possible for the grace to keep us from sinning is "not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation" is not an idea of his.

"...Our works do not save us one iota, it doesn’t even contribute. On the other hand, genuine Justification by Faith always produces good works. It is the evidence of Justification by Faith. Here’s the last part of verse 8:

"These things are excellent and profitable for everyone."

Please notice, they may not be profitable to you; they are profitable to other people." [Romans: The Clearest Gospel of All by E.H. “Jack” Sequeira, #8 – In Defense of Justification by Faith,(Romans 4:1-25)]

[Robert]

Quote:

John317:Do you believe that the grace of Christ is able to keep you from sinning? Is the Spirit-filled believer compelled to sin?

Robert:The question is not important because it doesn't have anything to do with salvation.

This is 100% not something Jack Sequeira would say.

That, BTW, is my theology....I didn't mention Jack, so why would bring him up?

[oldsailor29]

It seems to me that one of the major problems of this discussion is the failure to differentiate between sinning and being a sinner. Whether we sin or not, we are sinners. Some people seem to think that we are sinners only if we sin. It ain't that simple. We have inherited our status of "sinner" from Adam. Although we may overcome sin and cease to behave badly, we will be sinners until Jesus changes us at His second coming.

[Robert]

Whether we sin or not, we are sinners.

True....Because we are born with fallen natures, which simply means we are born "bent-to-self" (selfish), we outwardly sin. That's why Paul states, "all have sinned". And in Eph 2 he states, "All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature [not only performance] objects of wrath." And further more Paul calls our nature, "sin living in me". He continues, "I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh (members)." So "yes" having a sinful nature in and of itself is sin.

EGW agrees: The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh [a glorified, immortal, sinless humanity]. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18).

When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33]

And further more she states, "We have reason for ceaseless gratitude to God that Christ, by His perfect obedience, has won back the heaven that Adam lost through disobedience. Adam sinned, and the children of Adam share his guilt [condemnation] and its consequences...." [FW 88]

[Woody]

[John317]

Whether we sin or not, we are sinners.

Yes, indeed.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: oldsailor29

Whether we sin or not, we are sinners.

Yes, indeed.

Wow? Okay...So then you do believe that our sinful nature is itself sin and therefore it disqualifies us for heaven?

Remember what Paul said, "We shall be changed". We can't take our sinful natures to heaven....We are sinners both by nature and performance....But as Christians the performance gets better (not for salvation, but to attract others to Christ). However, the sinful nature never improves....It remains 100% sinful until we die.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, indeed. [/quote']

Wow? Okay...So then you do believe that our sinful nature is itself sin and therefore it disqualifies us for heaven?

Remember what Paul said, "We shall be changed". We can't take our sinful natures to heaven....We are sinners both by nature and performance....But as Christians the performance gets better (not for salvation, but to attract others to Christ). However, the sinful nature never improves....It remains 100% sinful until we die.

TU

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, indeed. [/quote']

Wow? Okay... .... the sinful nature never improves....It remains 100% sinful until we die.

This was answered in the first two posts on this thread.

[olger]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, indeed. [/quote']

Wow? Okay...So then you do believe that our sinful nature is itself sin and therefore it disqualifies us for heaven?

Remember what Paul said, "We shall be changed". We can't take our sinful natures to heaven....We are sinners both by nature and performance....But as Christians the performance gets better (not for salvation, but to attract others to Christ). However, the sinful nature never improves....It remains 100% sinful until we die.

It is true that the carnal nature never improves. That's why it must be kilt.

We are given a new nature in Christ. As it is written "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."

g

[Guest]

Right og, it must be kilt!

[Woody]

Yep. I love them kilts.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Yep. I love them kilts.

[phkrause]

I'm not sure, but I'll take one anyway.

pk