Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Just*]

Originally Posted By: Robert

But this is heresy....What you are doing is taking God's work "in Christ" (imputed righteousness) and adding to that work His "imparted righteousness" (what He does in you)! That means what Christ did 2000 years (in our humanity) is incomplete!

Oh, now Paul a heretic?

If what Jesus did 2k yrs ago was complete, what is He doing in the heavenly sanctuary? And why are we still here?

"But the atonement for a lost world was to be full, abundant, and complete. Christ's offering was exceedingly abundant to reach every soul that God had created. It could not be restricted so as not to exceed the number who would accept the great Gift. " {DA 565.5}

[Gerr]

And just when is the at-one-ment COMPLETED?

[Robert]

And just when is the at-one-ment COMPLETED?

The reality was completed "in Christ".....He took a sinless humanity to heaven. I can give you the verses all day long and then some....By faith I accept my position "in Him"....I am complete in Him.

At the resurrection I will receive all that is true "in Him".....That day I will receive the reality of what now I have by faith alone...

[Woody]

Gerry. The key in the quote is the word :

WAS

[pnattmbtc]

But this is heresy....What you are doing is taking God's work "in Christ" (imputed righteousness) and adding to that work His "imparted righteousness" (what He does in you)! That means what Christ did 2000 years (in our humanity) is incomplete!

[pnattmbtc]

I was reminded of the following, from "The Glad Tidings," also by E. J. Waggoner:

Quote:

"Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law." Let us stop right here and contemplate this fact, leaving the way of redemption for later consideration. We need to consider the statement very carefully, for some who read it straightway rush off frantically exclaiming, "We don't need to keep the law, because Christ has redeemed us from the curse of it," as though the text said that Christ redeemed us from the curse of obedience. Such read the Scriptures to no profit. The curse, as we have seen it, is disobedience. "Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." Therefore, Christ has redeemed us from disobedience to the law. God sent forth His Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, "that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us." Rom.8:4.

Some one may lightly say, "Then we are all right; whatever we do is right so far as the law is concerned, since we are redeemed." It is true that all are redeemed, but not all have accepted redemption. Many say of Christ, "We will not have this Man to reign over us," and thrust the blessing of God from them. But redemption is for all; all have been purchased with the precious blood--the life--of Christ, and all may be, if they will, free from sin and death. By that blood we are redeemed from our "vain manner of life." 1Pet.1:18, R.V.

Stop and think what this means; let the full force of the announcement impress itself upon your consciousness. "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,"--from not continuing in all its righteous requirements. We need not sin any more. He has snapped asunder the cords of sin that bound us, so that we have but to accept His salvation in order to be free from every besetting sin. It is not necessary for us any longer to spend our lives in earnest longings for a better life, and in vain regrets for desires unrealized. Christ raises no false hopes, but He comes to the captives of sin, and cries to them, "Liberty! Your prison doors are open. Go forth." What more can be said? Christ has gained the complete victory over "this present evil world," over "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life," and our faith in Him makes His victory ours. We have but to accept it.

Especially the last paragraph I think is interesting for this discussion.

[Guest]

Hey pnatt.....

[Gerr]

Gerry. The key in the quote is the word :

WAS

And what does "TO BE" mean?

Again I ask, when does complete at-one-ment take place?

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I think the term is hard hearted, not hard headed.

I see your point, but in Robert's case I think his head is harder than his heart.

teehe

[LifeHiscost]

#303759 - Today at 04:58

Excellent! And no matter the length nor intensity of the debate, it always has been, it is now, and it ever will be true.

Thank you for the post, pnattmbtc.

"For with God nothing shall be impossible."Luke 1:37 KJV

Blessings!

[Just*]

"“Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” This is completed action. We need not stumble over it, if we will but remember that everything is in Christ. In Christ we have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings. All men are called to that which God has prepared for them, but none are “the called according to his purpose” unless they have made their calling and election sure by submitting to his will. Such ones are predestinated to be saved. Nothing in the universe can hinder the salvation of any soul that accepts and trusts the Lord Jesus Christ.

And all such are justified. The death of Christ reconciles us to God. “He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2. His death has secured pardon and life for all. Nothing can keep them from salvation except their own perverse will. Men must take themselves out of the hand of God, in order to be lost. Much more, then, those who accept the sacrifice are justified. “God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life...Everything that Christ has we have if we accept him.”" Waggoner on Romans

[Just*]

"It is a full and complete salvation that God has provided; it awaits us as we come into the world;" Waggoner "GT"

[LifeHiscost]

"“Moreover, whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified.” This is completed action. We need not stumble over it, if we will but remember that everything is in Christ. In Christ we have already been blessed with all spiritual blessings. All men are called to that which God has prepared for them, but none are “the called according to his purpose” unless they have made their calling and election sure by submitting to his will. Such ones are predestinated to be saved. Nothing in the universe can hinder the salvation of any soul that accepts and trusts the Lord Jesus Christ.

And all such are justified. The death of Christ reconciles us to God. “He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” 1 John 2:2. His death has secured pardon and life for all. Nothing can keep them from salvation except their own perverse will. Men must take themselves out of the hand of God, in order to be lost. Much more, then, those who accept the sacrifice are justified. “God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son; much more being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life...Everything that Christ has we have if we accept him.”" Waggoner on Romans

And it remains with the ones who cannot reconcile the word completed, with the ongoing work of sustaining grace by Jesus, to seek God's understanding of a completed work, without dissimulation, lest they be found wanting by the Holy Spirit.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD."

Isaiah 55:8 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

"It is a full and complete salvation that God has provided; it awaits us as we come into the world;" Waggoner "GT"

GC 678.2}

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love

White, E. G. (1911; 2002). The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Conflict of the Ages, Volume 5; Great Controversy (678). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

That's at-one-ment!

[Stewart (SDA)]

"It is a full and complete salvation that God has provided; it awaits us as we come into the world;" Waggoner "GT"

If I might also comment on this thought Just --

EJ Waggoner's work is very valuable in my estimation too, although there are companion thoughts to this idea about "full and complete salvation". One of these could be,

"Love cannot live without action, and every act [of love] increases, strengthens, and extends it." (Waggoner quoting here from Mrs. White.)

But I think that full and complete salvation is, in one sense, like a computer zip-file which contains the fullness of Christ. The work of increasing, strengthening, and extending "love", is part of the work of extracting the contents of that zip-file.

_________

"Through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, God by his grace counts the past life of the sinner who believes, as though it had been in every respect, in accord with His law. This is justification... But the text says that this is revealed "from faith to faith;" and this can mean nothing else but a progressive work of righteousness. The verse teaches that the righteousness of God is revealed from one degree of faith to a higher degree of faith, and consequently that righteousness must ever be on the increase." EJW 1889

Justification and Sanctification go hand in hand, don't they?

________

Stewart

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

Through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus, God by his grace counts the past life of the sinner who believes, as though it had been in every respect, in accord with His law. This is justification.

It's interesting that one could just as well write, for the last three words, "This is forgiveness." As the SOP puts it, "justification and pardon (or forgiveness) are one and the same."

But it's a pardon which is not simply a paper or legal forgiveness, but a pardon which, as Waggoner puts it, radically changes the forgiven one.

[Just*]

...forgiveness, but a pardon which, as Waggoner puts it, radically changes the forgiven one.

Amen...

[Just*]

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation.

Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:5-7

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Eph 1:11

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Eph 1:6

[pnattmbtc]

Regarding the radically changed heart, some things Wieland has said has really helped me to understand this. Wieland defines faith as a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross. (I love this idea!) So the radical change that comes as a result of forgiveness involves the appreciation of the sacrifice which Christ made. Here's a comment from the SOP:

Quote:

How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175-176)

[pnattmbtc]

Originally Posted By: Just*

"It is a full and complete salvation that God has provided; it awaits us as we come into the world;" Waggoner "GT"

GC 678.2}

The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that God is love

White, E. G. (1911; 2002). The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan; Conflict of the Ages, Volume 5; Great Controversy (678). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

That's at-one-ment!

I generally think of "atonement" in this way as well. When speaking of "the atonement" I find that fairly often people have different ideas in mind, so there can be some talking past each other if one doesn't explain what meaning one has in mind.

[Gerr]

As I understand it, the Heb for atonement is kaphar means to cover.

So in my mind atonement is the great cover-up, of past wrongs so that at-one-ment can take place.

[Robert]

Romans 5:11 KJV

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

[Gerr]

Appreciation alone falls way short of what I believe faith to mean. I can appreciate something deeply without making a commitment. Personally, I prefer one of EGW's definitions - faith is taking God at His word.

[Gerr]

Romans 5:11 KJV

And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Atonement is much like salvation. We are saved, being saved, and will be saved. Atonement is made when the repentant Israelite brought his lamb at the altar. Atonement is made again on the yearly Day of Atonement. Atonement was provided at the Cross. Atonement is being made in the Heavenly Sanctuary now. And complete at-one-ment will FINALLY be achieved when all evil has been eliminated and universal harmony restored.

[pnattmbtc]

Appreciation alone falls way short of what I believe faith to mean. I can appreciate something deeply without making a commitment. Personally, I prefer one of EGW's definitions - faith is taking God at His word.