Is It Possible to Live Without Sinning?

[Gerr]

The wages of sin is death.

I think that makes it pretty clear.

"All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that does not lead to death."

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (1 Jn 5:17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

So either John was contradicting Paul & Ezekiel & the other prophets or there are two kinds of sins in God's sight - one leads to death & the other does not.

What happened to the man who high-handedly went gathering sticks on Sabbath? Those who rebelled against Moses & Aaron?

Sinners who REPENT do not go on in willful rebellion.

[cardw]

1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

If this cleared it up there would be no further discussion. No one seems to know what it means to know and what believing on a name means.

[cardw]

Quote:

What happened to the man who high-handedly went gathering sticks on Sabbath?

The man was stoned.

This was some terrible crime.

Since they had to go and ask Moses what to do with this guy indicates that he probably wasn't even Jewish. And by direct command from God they were ordered to stone him for gathering sticks.

This is no better than the Taliban.

This demonstrates the lunacy of taking the Bible seriously...

[Gerr]

It is lunacy to take rebellion against the God of heaven lightly.

[cardw]

It is lunacy to take rebellion against the God of heaven lightly.

There we go with fear again. That is why Christianity ultimately fails. Its core motivation is fear.

[Gerr]

That has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with order.

Surgeons remove cancers and oncologist use measures to kill them all

the time in order to preserve the body.

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is lunacy to take rebellion against the God of heaven lightly.

There we go with fear again. That is why Christianity ultimately fails. Its core motivation is fear.

If we're so looney for taking the Bible seriously, and Christianity is such a failure, then why do you keep coming here? Do you just enjoy arguing?

You must be looking for something. I don't find myself wanting to go to the Athiest forum and argue with them, so what's your motivation?

[Woody]

GP ....

If Christ could come here and live a totally perfect life ... what is wrong with the rest of us? Why are we not doing that? We are told we should but yet each one fails. We are a bunch of failures.. Why do we not measure up? He had no advantage. Yet He lived a life of absolute perfection. Since we have failed ... we obviously don't have to measure up to absolute perfection as He did.

[Gerr]

He DID have one advantage over you & me. We are/were born morally

bankrupt. He was not. But it is true that everything that was

available to Him to live a perfect life is available to us. But

our salvation is not based on perfection of behavior because we

are/were already morally bankrupt, rather God has placed on the

basis of how much we trust His Word. And the Apostle John assures

us that those who trust Him and abide in Him will NOT continue to

live a life of rebellion.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

It is lunacy to take rebellion against the God of heaven lightly.

There we go with fear again. That is why Christianity ultimately fails. Its core motivation is fear.

BTW, to think that the core motivation of Christianity is fear is absolutely wrong. It is LOVE!

It is LOVE that prompted God to give. It is LOVE that prompts understanding Christians to obey.

"18 Where God’s love is, there is no fear, because God’s perfect love drives out fear. It is punishment that makes a person fear, so love is not made perfect in the person who fears." 1 Jn 4:18 NCV

[Michael144]

Isaiah 64:6

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

So if our righteousness is as filthy rags what would that make our sinfulness?

We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling and not judge any after the flesh as even Jesus said He did not do.

If the body of Christ could simply think like the "heathen" Centurion, we would never have to have this conversation.

If the following story were the only scripture we had, it would be all we needed.

The Faith of the Centurion - Matthew 8

5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6"Lord," he said, "my servant lies at home paralyzed and in terrible suffering."

7 Jesus said to him, "I will go and heal him."

8 The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."

10 When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, "Go! It will be done just as you believed it would." And his servant was healed at that very hour.

[size:14pt]

[Woody]

Good Post. Yes ... ALL the Righteousness that Jesus gives us is as filthy rags towards our Salvation. Why you ask? Because it is ONLY His life and sacrifice on the cross that counts towards our salvation. The works that He does in and through us is good and necessary to continue faith in Him ... however ... those works are no good towards our salvation. So, yes. They are as filthy rags just as scripture says.

[cardw]

Quote:

BTW, to think that the core motivation of Christianity is fear is absolutely wrong. It is LOVE!

It is LOVE that prompted God to give. It is LOVE that prompts understanding Christians to obey.

Really, I guess you might want to read the post following yours in which Michael states...

Quote:

We are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling

If Love was really at the core of Christian belief people would flock to it. You wouldn't have to tell stories about a man gathering sticks being stoned. Your first response was that order was the highest value.

I think you should note what first came to your mind and it wasn't love.

[cardw]

Quote:

If we're so looney for taking the Bible seriously, and Christianity is such a failure, then why do you keep coming here?

I would like to be in a world that is eventually free from religious fear and dogma. The only way I know to make that happen is to educate and dialog.

[Guest]

Quote:

If we're so looney for taking the Bible seriously, and Christianity is such a failure, then why do you keep coming here?

I would like to be in a world that is eventually free from religious fear and dogma. The only way I know to make that happen is to educate and dialog.

Oh, so you're here to educate us. Wow. About the pitfalls of believing in scripture. How's that working out for you so far? Have you won any converts?

The only reason I ask is because when I read what you have to say, all I see is a bunch of atheistic nonsense. Do you really believe that you can just come here and spew a bunch of garbage and we're just going to say:

"Hey, this guy is right. What a fool I've been to believe the Bible all these years. I sure am glad he told me"

Because if you do, you're more deluded than I originally thought.

[Gerr]

Quote:

If we're so looney for taking the Bible seriously, and Christianity is such a failure, then why do you keep coming here?

I would like to be in a world that is eventually free from religious fear and dogma. The only way I know to make that happen is to educate and dialog.

Sorry, Richard, but I would have to take leave of my senses to believe there is no God.

[cardw]

Quote:

Oh, so you're here to educate us. Wow. About the pitfalls of believing in scripture. How's that working out for you so far? Have you won any converts?

Actually I have been very successful and largely because Christians tend to act like their god.

It's interesting that you can try and educate me on your beliefs, but it is somehow arrogant for me to educate you on my beliefs.

Quote:

The only reason I ask is because when I read what you have to say, all I see is a bunch of atheistic nonsense. Do you really believe that you can just come here and spew a bunch of garbage...

That's why Christianity is not very successful because they call everyone else's views garbage when often they are simply ignorant of the facts. I try and base my views on evidence when Christians very often simply appeal to faith, particularly on the difficult questions.

This is a form of dishonesty in the eyes of most of the world. And this is why non believers have increased from 10 percent of the US population to 35 percent.

[Guest]

No you haven't been successful here. I've never seen anybody agree with you yet. Most of them seem to feel sorry for you, but I don't. You're also wrong when you say I've tried to educate you. I've done no such thing, nor would I.

Good luck to you. May your god treat you like he does the rest of his subjects.

[cardw]

Quote:

You're also wrong when you say I've tried to educate you. I've done no such thing, nor would I.

Really. So calling my ideas garbage is not an attempt to educate me on your beliefs?

Quote:

No you haven't been successful here. I've never seen anybody agree with you yet.

Well people don't always dialog with me on the forum. And I'm not interested in keeping score anyway. That's not my intent.

It's actually people like yourself that provide far more evidence of the failure of Christianity than I ever could.

An example of your influence is how you treat me. Condescending comes to mind. I'm not complaining at all, nor am I offended. It simply proves my point in a way that all the intellectual analysis never could.

Quote:

Most of them seem to feel sorry for you, but I don't.

There really is no need to feel sorry for me and it's interesting how you want to make it clear that you don't. It seems rather childish to me.

Quote:

Good luck to you. May your god treat you like he does the rest of his subjects.

You misunderstand my thinking. I recognize that there are great mysteries in the universe, but I don't anthropomorphize them. You are an atheist as far as Zeus is concerned. I simply add one more god to the list than you do.

[cardw]

That has nothing to do with fear. It has to do with order.

Surgeons remove cancers and oncologist use measures to kill them all

the time in order to preserve the body.

What is interesting is that cutting something out of the body is the most primitive method. As we begin to understand more about the body, cancer treatments become more and more specific and less destructive.

I would think the same thing would happen with our understanding of human culture. The most primitive solutions kill the people that don't agree with us and the more advanced solutions create unity and transformation.

Christianity, along with many other ancient religions, applied violence as the ultimate solution. I think its time we grew past that.

[Robert]

If it's written by Joe Crews ...

I ain't reading it.

TU

Right, Joe's theology limits the definition of sin. Sin is much bigger than what the mere letter of the law details. That's why Christ expanded on the law - especially the spirit of the law. Maybe Joe didn't understand this?

Rob

[Woody]

Ahhh. Good one there Rob. Good to have you back on board.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote:

A rich man kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

A priest kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

A poor man kneels before the altar and states "I am nothing before you O God."

The rich man looks at the poor man and says to the priest, "Look who thinks HE'S nothing!"

This was great.

[Robert]

Quote:

What happened to the man who high-handedly went gathering sticks on Sabbath?

The man was stoned....This is no better than the Taliban.

I've done much worse than gather sticks on the Sabbath for some firewood. Then why am I still living? I am not under the jurisdiction of the law. I have been delivered from it because I have accepted my death in the body of Christ.

As to Israel, well Paul states the following:

Romans 10: 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness that comes from God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness. 4 Christ is the end [completion] of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes. 5 But Moses describes in this way the righteousness that is by the law: "The man who does these things will by them live." 6 But the righteousness that is by faith says:...9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved"

Here's the key: Israel, probably because they were raised in the Egyptian (pagan) religions, believed in appeasing an angry god(s). It was fear and reward based. If you did well the afterlife was yours.

Israel demanded law...they wanted heaven by their law performance. So Christ, in order to open their eyes, entered the Old Covenant with them. The problem with being under law is if you sin you must die. That's the Old Covenant - obey and live, disobey and die.

It seems quite drastic, but apparently it was the only course God could take.

[Robert]

Israel demanded law...they wanted heaven by their law performance. So Christ, in order to open their eyes, entered the Old Covenant with them.

This idea can be seen in following:

"What is justification by faith? -- It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ....." [EGW]

You see until we can come to the point and realize that even the good things we do are done for self-centered motives we cannot be clothed in the righteousness of Christ. If you think there's 1 ounce of goodness in you then you need more law until your glory (pride) is in the dust. This was the reason for the OC.

Paul touches on this in Gal:

But the Scripture declares that the whole world [the human race - all men] is a prisoner of sin [self-love, self-seeking, etc], so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe. 23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law [we were under the jurisdiction of the law waiting for execution day], locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision [jurisdiction]of the law.