Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

[oldsailor29]

Unless we behold the sinless nature of a divine being, it is very difficult for us to see our sinful nature, which we inherited from Adam and Eve.

[Robert]

Bingo!

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost...

It is a done deal. It can't be lost. But you can refuse it if you tell God clearly that you no longer desire it.

And how does one tell God he does not want it anymore? What speaks louder? Our words or our actions?

[Gerr]

The man of Rom 7 is a "slave to sin." "No man can serve two masters." Jesus.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Stewart (SDA)

I must differ with you on this Robert.

In my view the Romans 7:22 term, "inward man", referrs to his conscience.

In Romans 7:22 Paul makes this statement:

For in my inner man I delight in God’s law.

You can talk about delight in God's law in the inward man all you want, but until obedience to it is seen in the life, all it is mental gymnastics.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

...

18.... For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ....22 For in my inner being (inner man/inward man - which Paul always uses to define a believer) I delight in God's law

Here are the facts:

1] The man of Romans 7 desires to do good...he delights in God's law according to the law written on the heart (inner man).

2] Unbelievers do not delight in God's law of love. Why? Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind [the unbelievers mind] is enmity against God (it hates God's agape for it love selfishness) : for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. The unbeliever does not "desire to do good"....it does not "delight in God's law.

Rob

I must differ with you on this Robert.

In my view the Romans 7:22 term, "inward man", referrs to his conscience.

"...For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (7:22)

Isn't Paul acknowledging the beauty and the righteousness of God's moral law?

Yet his problem was that he couldn't find a way to live in accordance with it?

And yes, as a Pharisee of the Pharisees, Paul saw himself as "blameless".

But isn't this what Paul refers to when he says,

"For I was alive without the law once..." (Rom 7:9)

And at that time, wasn't Paul (in his Pharisaical pomp) among the "whole" who felt no need of the Physician (Matt 9:11-12)?

In that "blameless" state he was certainly among those who felt no need of Christ.

He was "once" whole, He was "once" alive, entirely satisfied (but spiritually blinded) with his self-righteousness. But when the Spirit brought the law home to him (to his inward man/ his awakened conscience), then his great struggle began. He saw now that he was dead in sins and trespass, and far from the "blameless" man he thought he was.

"For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came [home to me], sin revived, and I died." (Rom 7:9)

When he saw the Law of God in it's true spiritual nature, Paul was unsettled and troubled... He says, "the law worketh wrath" (Rom 4:15), and this was Paul's experience until, in his striving he entered into the "straight gate" and found salvation.

______________________

"Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will [merely] seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:24)

How few today enter in! How few know what it is to strive and to wrestle with God until they have gained the promised blessing!

______________________

Regards,

Stewart

Amen :-)

I would also add that this is the experience of all Christians that have not entered into the experience of Righteousness by Faith in the Merits of Jesus.

Mark

[Twilight]

Poster: Twilight

Quote:

No walking after the Spirit = no imputation of righteousness in our account. It's as simple as that.

Amen. :-)

Some people do not realise that Justification can be lost...

If not so, then why the warning?

"Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."1 Corinthians 10:12 KJV

Blessings!

[Gail]

I'd like to add that, as I think Mark put it, it is simple but not easy. There is a battle going on for our souls. That is why the Bible uses words like "strive" and "sword" and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Jesus invites us to take His yoke upon us, for it is easy and the burden is light. It is when we turn it over to Him and submit to Him.

But our God is a God of victory, and we are fortunate that we can know this for certainty even now. :)

[Twilight]

I'd like to add that, as I think Mark put it, it is simple but not easy. There is a battle going on for our souls. That is why the Bible uses words like "strive" and "sword" and "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling".

Jesus invites us to take His yoke upon us, for it is easy and the burden is light. It is when we turn it over to Him and submit to Him.

But our God is a God of victory, and we are fortunate that we can know this for certainty even now.

Further to your thought Gail:

I have had to learn to wrestle with God like Jacob did, until I receive the blessing of victory over sin.

That has to happen individually with each temptation that comes.

But is is only the merits of the blood of Christ, that give me any reason or right to come to the Father to gain the help I need.

When I come with that, He imparts Jesus Righteousness to me, through the ministration of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus' Love is imparted to me.

Then I have the power to overcome.

It is not wrestling with sin that we need to learn, but wrestling with God for victory over sin.

God bless,

Mark

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

In Romans 7:22 Paul makes this statement:

For in my inner man I delight in God’s law.[/quote']

You can talk about delight in God's law in the inward man all you want, but until obedience to it is seen in the life, all it is mental gymnastics.

Then you are a lost man because you are still a slave to your self-love. You are a sinner and the law says, Die!!!!

[Robert]

Eze 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, [and] doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked [man] doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

I wonder if this will get termed "legalism"...

Mark :-)

Yes, that statement is old covenant!

Ez 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die.

That's "obey and live"...."Disobey and die"

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26

[Robert]

Here's the real problem....If the man of chapter 7 is under the curse (condemned) then heaven is out of reach for the struggling sinner who, in his heart, loves the principle of God's law.

I'll go a step further....Anyone who condemns the man of Romans 7 as lost is by definition a legalist.

Matt 23:4 They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. ....13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces."

You see when you judge the man of Romans 7 as lost you condemn yourself because just like him you too or falling short of the spirit of God's law. You might keep the letter of the law outwardly, but unless you keep the spirit you are a sinner in need of a Savior.

Paul, as a Pharisee, kept the letter. He said, "as to the righteousness in the law, blameless". But after Paul saw the law spiritually, then he saw himself as a sinner.

[Robert]

Here's the real problem....If the man of chapter 7 is under the curse (condemned) then heaven is out of reach for the struggling sinner who, in his heart, loves the principle of God's law.

I'll go a step further....Anyone who condemns the man of Romans 7 as lost is by definition a legalist.

Paul, as a Pharisee, kept the letter. He said, "as to the righteousness in the law, blameless". But after Paul saw the law spiritually, then he saw himself as a sinner.

Proof:

7 For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."

Is coveting an outward act? No! If you really think about it practically all advertising is based on the principle of lust or coveting. It's centered in I-ism....So coveting is in the mind. In fact without Christ everything you do is based on "the lust of the flesh" what Paul terms "self-seeking."

That's what EGW means when she says, "...when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Note that "selfishness of motive" defiles (pollutes) every outward act we do especially in the realm of so called "good works".

14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual [i.e., as a child of Adam], sold as a slave to sin [self-love].

Now keep this in mind. Paul isn't discussing the letter of the law such as, "you shall not kill, you shall not commit adultery", etc. No, the context is clearly on the spirit of the law.

So the next time you accuse the man of Romans 7 as being unregenerated, you better look in the mirror because until the law is written in your heart...until you understand it, you will think, as did Saul the Pharisee, that as far as the law is concerned you stand blameless.

[LifeHiscost]

It is not wrestling with sin that we need to learn, but wrestling with God for victory over sin.

God bless,

Mark

One of the keys to salvation. Would anyone suggest we can win the battle with such a foe as this below, were it not for a big Brother Who won the battle at the cross and in heaven.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Ephesians 6:12 KJV

Praise God that for those who put there trust in Jesus, we have promises we can claim such as these.

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."Romans 8:36-39 KJV

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 NKJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

It is not wrestling with sin that we need to learn, but wrestling with God for victory over sin.

God bless,

Mark

One of the keys to salvation. Would anyone suggest we can win the battle with such a foe as this below, were it not for a big Brother Who won the battle at the cross and in heaven.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Ephesians 6:12 KJV

Praise God that for those who put there trust in Jesus, we have promises we can claim such as these.

"As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."Romans 8:36-39 KJV

"What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?"Romans 8:31 NKJV

Blessings!

Praise God that for those who put there trust in Jesus, we have promises we can claim such as these.

And here is the part where we have to learn to wrestle.

Not trusting in self or our own good works.

But trusting that the merits of Jesus shed blood is sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Learning this is a wrestle against every action of the human mind, against every doubt and false belief.

That the merit of this shed blood is the perfect argument so that we can be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So that the Holy Spirit can shed Gods love abroad into our hearts.

That love of His which is in fact His Righteouseness.

God bless,

Mark

[Gerr]

You can talk about delight in God's law in the inward man all you want, but until obedience to it is seen in the life, all it is mental gymnastics.

Quote:

Then you are a lost man because you are still a slave to your self-love. You are a sinner and the law says, Die!!!!

If you are right, then Jesus was not telling the truth when He said: "If the Son sets you free, you shall be indeed!"

[Robert]

If you are right, then Jesus was not telling the truth when He said: "If the Son sets you free, you shall be indeed!"

If you take that quote to mean free from sin then John contradicts Jesus when he says, "If we say we have no sin...." And he contradicts Paul who says, "All have sinned and fall short [present tense]...." And then you would have Jesus contradicting Jesus for He said, "There is none good, but One - that is, God."

What then did Christ set us free from?

Romans 7:6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit....

Romans 4:15 "because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law [i.e., where you have been released from the law] there is no transgression.

Under law one thing is required: Perfect love...perfect agape...perfect selfless living. You know, "In heaven none will think of self"!

Is there something wrong with the law? No, the law is good, the law is holy...it is righteous! The problem is we are not. No matter how mature you are, no matter what level of righteousness you think you have attained, the law doesn't grade on the curve. It's says, "You must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect".

Therefore God had to deliver us from under law for to be under law means death - eternal death. We have been set free from under the law. How? Because "in Christ" the law is satisfied because I died to the law in the body of Christ. As far as the law is concerned I'm a dead, cursed by the law itself.

Now, just because I'm free from under law doesn't mean I should say, "Let's sin all the more - let's live for the flesh. That's why Paul says, "You, my brothers, were called to be free [from under law]. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."

[Guest WilloMar]

“And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (2 Thess. 2:8).” This is a favorite verse of Seventh-day Adventists, and it should be because it's our Lord's 2nd coming. It’s a description of the Lord’s destruction of the wicked when He comes for His people. Now, let’s reason a little here: “Consume with the spirit of His mouth.” Is that actual fire coming out of His mouth like a dragon? Or does it simply mean His Word: “He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day (John 12:48).” That’s clear, isn’t it? But, what about the second half of that verse, “and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming?” Here is what Ellen White wrote, concerning this verse: “At the coming of Christ the wicked are blotted from the face of the whole earth, ---- consumed with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and destroyed by the brightness of His Glory (GC 657).” She changed the last word of 2 Thess. 2:8 from “coming,” to “glory.” Now, what is God’s Glory? “Through trial and persecution the glory ---- the character ---- of God is revealed in His chosen ones (AA 576).” And, “He has called us ‘to the obtaining of the glory’ ---- character ---- ‘of our Lord Jesus Christ;’ has called us to be ‘conformed to the image of His Son.’ 2 Thess. 2:14; Rom. 8:29 (DA 341).” And again, “By beholding Christ, by talking of Him, by beholding the loveliness of His character we become changed. Changed from glory to glory. And what is glory? Character, ---- and he becomes changed from character to character. Thus we see that there is a work of purification that goes on by beholding Jesus (SD 337).”

Now, what destroys the wicked? “Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory (His Coming, His Character) is to them a consuming fire (GC 37).” Again, “The natural heart is at enmity against God, and will resist the clearest evidence of truth. The wicked will not endure the light that condemns their wrong course of action (5T 341).” If you want to see how you should live, look to Jesus, and if you want to see how the wicked will die, look to Jesus: “Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin (DA 799).” Did fire come down from God and consume Him? Absolutely Not, He died by the hands of sinners.

Prepare for the coming of Jesus!!

[LifeHiscost]

And here is the part where we have to learn to wrestle.

Not trusting in self or our own good works.

But trusting that the merits of Jesus shed blood is sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf. Learning this is a wrestle against every action of the human mind, against every doubt and false belief.

(Which wrestling on our own would be a bummer. LHC)

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." Ephesians 6:12 KJV

That the merit of this shed blood is the perfect argument so that we can be given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So that the Holy Spirit can shed Gods love abroad into our hearts.

That love of His which is in fact His Righteouseness.

God bless,

Mark

[Guest WilloMar]

I think we all agree that the living God is the source of all life. From the beginning, after He “...formed man of the dust of the ground...,” He “...breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul (Gen. 2:7).” Acts 17:25 says, “...He giveth to all life, and breath, and all things.” We can say, as Job said, “All the while my breath is in me, and the Spirit of God is in my nostrils (Job 27:3).” And there’s this precious example Jesus gave to His disciples when “He breathed on them, and saith unto them, ‘Receive ye the Holy Ghost (John 20:22).’” Yes, it can be safely said that “the breath of the Almighty hath given me (us) life (Job 33:4).”

Now, if God is going to destroy man (of the wicked variety) why be so dramatic with fire and brimstone. All He needs to do is just take His life support from them. That would be much easier, right? Oh, I know, nothing’s too hard for God!

Let’s all be able to welcome Jesus when He comes!

[Gerr]

He could have just snuffed out the breath of all the antediluvians too, but He chose a Flood. Why did He use a Flood? I don't know.

So why not just snuff the life support of every wicked in the end time instead of fire? Why will He use Fire? I don't know that either. All I can depend on is what is revealed in 2 Pe 3:9,10, that fire will burn up every vestige of evil.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Romans 4:15 "because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law [i.e., where you have been released from the law] there is no transgression.

Under law one thing is required: Perfect love...perfect agape...perfect selfless living. You know, "In heaven none will think of self"!

So your solution? No requirement to love!!! Because if you start obeying the law of love, you become a legalist!!!

If only you could see the logic or the lack thereof in your position!

Quote:

Is there something wrong with the law? No, the law is good, the law is holy...it is righteous! The problem is we are not. No matter how mature you are, no matter what level of righteousness you think you have attained, the law doesn't grade on the curve. It's says, "You must be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect".

Therefore God had to deliver us from under law for to be under law means death - eternal death. We have been set free from under the law. How? Because "in Christ" the law is satisfied because I died to the law in the body of Christ. As far as the law is concerned I'm a dead, cursed by the law itself.

If your conclusions are correct, how then could the psalmist say, "Oh how I love your law! It is my meditation all the day." Ps 119:97 ESV

How then can he say, "Great peace have those who love your law; nothing can make them stumble." Ps 119:165 ESV.

If being "under law" ALWAYS means eternal death, how could he love the law? How could he have peace knowing it consigns him to eternal death?

Or is it possible, just may be possible, Robert, that you are failing to grasp the simple truth that there is a world of difference between being "under the law" as being under its condemnation, from "under law" as a standard of righteous living? How can the law condemn a believer who is walking by faith with Jesus, and the poor sinner may not match Jesus perfectly stride for stride, but because it is "in his heart to obey God," and is putting forth the effort, that our loving God accepts it as fulfilling the law? Not for merit as the basis for salvation, but obedience made acceptable by the merit of His own Son?

Quote:

Now, just because I'm free from under law doesn't mean I should say, "Let's sin all the more - let's live for the flesh. That's why Paul says, "You, my brothers, were called to be free [from under law]. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."

I am delighted that you recognize this fact. Or can't you see that by giving a command, "serve one another in love," Paul has put believers back under law? So then let us take the next step: What does one do so that one does not indulge the sinful nature?

What does one do when serving another person in love? Is it not pointing back to obedience to the 10C?

[Robert]

Quote:

Romans 4:15 "because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law [i.e., where you have been released from the law] there is no transgression.

Under law one thing is required: Perfect love...perfect agape...perfect selfless living. You know, "In heaven none will think of self"!

[color:blue]

So your solution? No requirement to love!!!

[LifeHiscost]

Now, just because I'm free from under law doesn't mean I should say, "Let's sin all the more - let's live for the flesh. That's why Paul says, "You, my brothers, were called to be free [from under law]. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love."

I'm sorry you feel the Law is a curse to you, Robert. I'm just hoping that if you and I ever meet on this earth, you'll feel comfortable enough to put yourself under the "curse" long enough to not murder me. In fact I believe the world would be a lot better off if more people would put themselves under that curse, first, before expecting it of others. Maybe if all the world would practice that "curse" for just one week, we could probably, altogether, save a number of millions of lives.

And then by the end of the week, perhaps we would start enjoying living under the "curse" of not killing others long enough where it would become habit forming. I think Jesus came to that conclusion too, as spoken by one of His servants. Of course, that could only become possible by letting Jesus do the writing.

"FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS,AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS.AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD,AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE." Hebrews 8:10 NASB emphasis theirs LHC

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."Gal 3:29 KJV

Regards!