Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

About the only thing that's hard for me to resist on TV is when the Lakers are playing. I may watch the Dodgers on occasion or the Rams.

It's hard to resist "the pride of life" isn't it. After all, games are about winning...being # 1 or who is the greatest of all. That's iniquity in action, to be technical!

Quote:

"Now war arose in heaven....."

What, did they have guns? Maybe they knew Kung Fu? Maybe they boxed each others ears? Or maybe there's God's Navy? Yeah, I can see you think outside the box....Not!

Have it your way, Robert, if you think you are the only one capable of thinking outside the box.

Quote:

Quote:

As King He also rules. And His servants "serve Him night and day."

No, he serves....Jesus is the greatest servant of all, yet He is God the author of life...the author of agape!

Yes, Jesus is the greatest servant in all the universe, that is why - "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive POWER and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." "On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'King of kings and Lord of lords."

[Gerr]

Quote:

Actually that can be translated, thou shalt not murder.

Mark :-)

Yeah? Well, you are right! It is also translated into...

a primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder :- put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)

Where else have I heard such nonsense....Ah yeah a common theme from the crusaders. "To kill an infidel is not murder..."

Twilight, what did Jesus say? He actually summed up the 10 commandments into two simple commands. Love God, love your neighbor. Killing your neighbor for any reason a sign of love? Didn't Jesus also say. "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you"

I'm sorry, but your statement makes no sense.

Would you call it love if God were to allow evil to be present, with Satan forever on the loose to keep tempting and tormenting God's people and defacing His creation?

[Gerr]

Dear Twilight, yes it can be translated, "Murder." Lutz13 gave a good response. Now, what is the difference between kill and "Murder"? Was it "Murder" when babies died in the flood? How about when the first born died in Egypt? I'm sure there were babies and pregnant women dying there, too. Let's not get all mixed up with words of the same meaning. Isn't murder when someone innocent is killed? Who among us is innocent? The only ones I can think of are those who haven't sinned, such as Jesus, babies born and about to be born... and... You? I can't think of anyone else. I could go on, and on, and on.... But what the point. You have your mind made up already..... Right?

We must prepare for Christ's Advent!

Would you call it murder if you and your friend went hunting in the forest and what you thought was a deer you shot was actually your friend?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Yeah, it's so clear that that is the reason I don't go around murdering people!

Isn't that quite a stretch for you to say that I am taking the Lord's name in vain because I believe He destroys evil? That God destroys evil and will eventually totally eradicate it from His creation is a theme that goes from Gen to Rev. Do I need to quote you references? But since you start with the premise that God destroys no one, then you have to use some mental gymnastics to explain away very clear statements of Scripture rather than taking them as they read.

Let me ask you: Do you consider judges to be evil for sending rapists and murderers to jail? or even to the electric chair?

Gerry, what is your explanation on the following text.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4) "But he did not inquire of the Lord, therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14) "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath"(Hosea 13:11)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Is that how you view justice? Hate? Revenge? If so, then I can understand why you discount this aspect of God's character. But justice has nothing to do with hate or revenge. Even little children intuitively know that when someone does something bad to someone else and goes scot free, that there is something that is quite wrong. If there is no hell for the wicked, then neither should be a heaven for believers.

Gerry, when someone kills someone. The victims family seeks justice. What kind of justice? They want the suspect dead. An eye for an eye if you will. If you do not see that as revenge, then I do not know what to tell you...

"You have heard that is was said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also."(Matthew 5:38-40)

Yes, you are correct that in most cases, the victim's family want revenge. But now I am asking you about the judge who sends a heinous criminal to the electric chair. Is he evil for doing so? Is the Supreme Court of the USA the Supreme Evil of the USA for seeing to it that justice is done?

Does God resist Satan? Does Jesus? Does the Holy Spirit?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Left the bliss of heaven voluntarily? Have you ever seen an evil ruler leave his position voluntarily? No! The Scripture says they were "THROWN DOWN". Those are NOT my thoughts or methods as you seem to intimate. That is God's revelation. You quote Jude as though he is contradicting John! Not so! The same Spirit that inspired John cannot be contradicting Himself when He inspires Jude! But when you start with a wrong premise, then it is inevitable that the two writers are contradicting themselves! Accept the plain sense of Scripture as it reads and you will find surprising harmony.

I am Gerry! Jude says they left! Why would they just up and leave? Because darkness is miserable in the light. Why? Because it is exposed! "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."(John 3:20)

[Lutz13]

The greatest problem, when it comes to men studying the Bible, is that many study it with human spectacles. They place human attributes on God, which brings Him down to the level of sinful mankind.

Yes, exactly what Paul said! "Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..."(Romans 1:22-23) We were made in Gods image, we were made with the same love He had. What happened? We became corrupt and now we are trying to see God as we are. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' Says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"(Isaiah 55:8-9)

How is this not clear? It is crystal clear to me! It is plain!

[Lutz13]

es, Jesus is the greatest servant in all the universe, that is why - "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive POWER and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." "On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'King of kings and Lord of lords."

Right! "For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."(Luke 22:27) On this world, the one who sits at the table is the greatest. In the kingdom of heaven it is the opposite. Isn't that interesting, heavens ways are usually the opposite of earths ways...

[Gerr]

Quote:

Yeah, it's so clear that that is the reason I don't go around murdering people!

Isn't that quite a stretch for you to say that I am taking the Lord's name in vain because I believe He destroys evil? That God destroys evil and will eventually totally eradicate it from His creation is a theme that goes from Gen to Rev. Do I need to quote you references? But since you start with the premise that God destroys no one, then you have to use some mental gymnastics to explain away very clear statements of Scripture rather than taking them as they read.

Let me ask you: Do you consider judges to be evil for sending rapists and murderers to jail? or even to the electric chair?

Gerry, what is your explanation on the following text.

"...Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it."(1 Samuel 31:4) "But he did not inquire of the Lord, therefore He killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14) "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath"(Hosea 13:11)

What amazes me, Lutz, is that God takes responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in His creation because He created it. He takes responsibility for something that 1). He directly and actively does, e.g. the Flood, Achan swallowed up by the opening of the earth, 2). Consequences as a result of violating the laws He instituted, e.g. the blind, the dumb, as that statement in Exodus, 3) as when He removes His protection, i.e. passive action, e.g. Assyrian captivity of the northern kingdom and the Babylonian captivity of Judah, and God abandoning Saul in your example. While He takes the responsibility as Creator, the Pre-advent Judgment and the Great White Throne Judgment will also show that while He takes that responsibility as Creator, it will be shown that He was blameless after all because free beings chose to separate themselves from the Live-giver.

[Lutz13]

Would you call it love if God were to allow evil to be present, with Satan forever on the loose to keep tempting and tormenting God's people and defacing His creation?

Gerry, have you noticed that this world is on the brink of self destruction?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The greatest problem, when it comes to men studying the Bible, is that many study it with human spectacles. They place human attributes on God, which brings Him down to the level of sinful mankind.

Yes, exactly what Paul said! "Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man..."(Romans 1:22-23) We were made in Gods image, we were made with the same love He had. What happened? We became corrupt and now we are trying to see God as we are. "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' Says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts"(Isaiah 55:8-9)

How is this not clear? It is crystal clear to me! It is plain!

And who is professing to be wise? The one who accepts Scripture as it reads? or the one who thinks it says something entirely different? And finds contradictions where there is none?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

What amazes me, Lutz, is that God takes responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in His creation because He created it. He takes responsibility for something that 1). He directly and actively does, e.g. the Flood, Achan swallowed up by the opening of the earth, 2). Consequences as a result of violating the laws He instituted, e.g. the blind, the dumb, as that statement in Exodus, 3) as when He removes His protection, i.e. passive action, e.g. Assyrian captivity of the northern kingdom and the Babylonian captivity of Judah, and God abandoning Saul in your example. While He takes the responsibility as Creator, the Pre-advent Judgment and the Great White Throne Judgment will also show that while He takes that responsibility as Creator, it will be shown that He was blameless after all because free beings chose to separate themselves from the Live-giver.

So you would agree that Gods wrath is Him turning us over to ourselves?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Would you call it love if God were to allow evil to be present, with Satan forever on the loose to keep tempting and tormenting God's people and defacing His creation?

Gerry, have you noticed that this world is on the brink of self destruction?

If sin and sinners will self-destruct without any action from God, how come it has not happened before now?

[Gerr]

Quote:

What amazes me, Lutz, is that God takes responsibility for EVERYTHING that happens in His creation because He created it. He takes responsibility for something that 1). He directly and actively does, e.g. the Flood, Achan swallowed up by the opening of the earth, 2). Consequences as a result of violating the laws He instituted, e.g. the blind, the dumb, as that statement in Exodus, 3) as when He removes His protection, i.e. passive action, e.g. Assyrian captivity of the northern kingdom and the Babylonian captivity of Judah, and God abandoning Saul in your example. While He takes the responsibility as Creator, the Pre-advent Judgment and the Great White Throne Judgment will also show that while He takes that responsibility as Creator, it will be shown that He was blameless after all because free beings chose to separate themselves from the Live-giver.

So you would agree that Gods wrath is Him turning us over to ourselves?

IMHO, that's only HALF-true. It is true we destroy ourselves. But if I'm lost, I don't burn up on my own. Satan would NEVER burn himself up on his own! Neither would his followers. Someone has to do it! If a criminal goes to jail, he goes to jail because of his OWN action. But somebody has to send him there. I believe this is beautifully illustrated in the Day of Atonement ceremony on the two goats.

[Lutz13]

If sin and sinners will self-destruct without any action from God, how come it has not happened before now?

Because God is waiting for me to repent!

Seriously though..."The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)

I don't know Gerry. Somethings we will just have to wait to receive and answer for.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Left the bliss of heaven voluntarily? Have you ever seen an evil ruler leave his position voluntarily? No! The Scripture says they were "THROWN DOWN". Those are NOT my thoughts or methods as you seem to intimate. That is God's revelation. You quote Jude as though he is contradicting John! Not so! The same Spirit that inspired John cannot be contradicting Himself when He inspires Jude! But when you start with a wrong premise, then it is inevitable that the two writers are contradicting themselves! Accept the plain sense of Scripture as it reads and you will find surprising harmony.

I am Gerry! Jude says they left! Why would they just up and leave? Because darkness is miserable in the light. Why? Because it is exposed! "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed."(John 3:20)

And just throw out the Apostle John's statement that they were "thrown down?" as tbe prooduct of a vengeful "son of thunder's mind?"

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If sin and sinners will self-destruct without any action from God, how come it has not happened before now?

Because God is waiting for me to repent!

Seriously though..."The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not will that any should perish but that all should come to repentance"(2 Peter 3:9)

I don't know Gerry. Somethings we will just have to wait to receive and answer for.

So if it's not happening yet, God must have something to do with the elimination of evil after all?

[Robert]

Yes, Jesus is the greatest servant in all the universe, that is why - "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive POWER and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." "On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'King of kings and Lord of lords."

We agree....

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

es, Jesus is the greatest servant in all the universe, that is why - "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive POWER and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing." "On His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, 'King of kings and Lord of lords."

Right! "For who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves? Is it not he who sits at the table? Yet I am among you as the One who serves."(Luke 22:27) On this world, the one who sits at the table is the greatest. In the kingdom of heaven it is the opposite. Isn't that interesting, heavens ways are usually the opposite of earths ways...

TU

[Robert]

The one who accepts Scripture as it reads?

You tell me....

I [God] killed Saul.

So Saul killed himself.

[Robert]

So if it's not happening yet, God must have something to do with the elimination of evil after all?

In the passive sense, but ultimately sin kills....

[Lutz13]

So if it's not happening yet, God must have something to do with the elimination of evil after all?

God will remove His spirit from this world, and things will go crazy. The four winds that are being held back right now will be loosed. The world will feel Gods wrath. Yet the world will actually do it to themselves. It gets to the point where there is nothing more God can do. He doesn't force Himself on us.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So if it's not happening yet, God must have something to do with the elimination of evil after all?

God will remove His spirit from this world, and things will go crazy. The four winds that are being held back right now will be loosed. The world will feel Gods wrath. Yet the world will actually do it to themselves. It gets to the point where there is nothing more God can do. He doesn't force Himself on us.

Do you think God's Spirit is still with Satan and his angels?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

So if it's not happening yet, God must have something to do with the elimination of evil after all?

In the passive sense, but ultimately sin kills....

And sin causes spontaneous combustion?

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The one who accepts Scripture as it reads?

You tell me....

I [God] killed Saul.

So Saul killed himself.

Just like: God hardened Pharaoh's heart vs God hardened his heart. See my response to Lutz about the 3 ways has taken responsibility for everything that happens in His creation. In the case of Pharaoh, the same Spirit that melts the responsive sinner's heart, hardens the heart of the sinner who resists. In one sense God hardened Pharaoh's heart, and in another sense, Pharaoh hardened his. Same way with Saul. Again, what you see as a contradiction, is more apparent than real.