Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

I will go no further than the whole of Scripture Robert.

You have gone further than that.

God will not condemn me for caution that rests on the principle of Sola Scriptura.

Mark

And God will not condemn me because I have a clear conscience on this issue. If I am wrong my motive is correct and that's what is used in the judgment.

Rob

[Robert]

God destroys sin ultimately

Sin is a time bomb....It is self-destructive. God is holding "its wages back", but when He releases, when He retreats, when He abandons those who have persistently and ultimately rejected His love, sin will self-destruct.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I am just urging caution my friend.

Well, thank you for your concern. I have talked to God a lot about this, and told Him if I am going too far and am wrong about this to pull me away. Instead He keeps showing me more evidence that leads me closer to His love. How do I know this is from Him? That is a good question. A really good question. Jesus says if a doctrine gives glory to God, then it is true. This message shows Gods glory, and it is beautiful. That is not all though. I'm compelled to go the extra mile for others now. I've never felt this before, it was always about me. I am truly starting to understand what Gods love is, and He is showing and helping me peel off the self love that I have.

Quote:

Do not be so dogmatic in your views would be my counsel.

Allow that you can be led wrongly, but listen to the objections people make to your arguments. Do not assume because they do not agree, that they are all axe wielding maniacs that want to chop everybodies head off.

I don't think people are axe wielding maniacs for not believing this message. The sad thing is, is when God pulls His spirit away, it is going to get really bad. That is why, before He does, a last message goes out to the world that reveals His character. To show His true glory! This message is it, and I want to share it with as many as I can. This message will be what allows the 144,000 to stand in the time of trouble.

Quote:

My point is this, we cannot fully understand God's Character as finite beings, but He has revealed enough that we can trust Him.

If something is difficult to understand, we do not throw God out, but we allow for ourselves to have fallible minds.

What makes you think I am throwing God out?

Quote:

I asked you this before, forgive me if I did not see your reply.

But you point to the Leading of the Holy Spirit as your "safety net", but you have a problem here.

If Moses could not discern the leading of the Holy Spirit (because he did not know who he was talking to as you claim), then how can you be sure that you are lead by the Holy Spirit and not the enemy?

The same goes when Paul says that "God is a consuming fire". When you say He is not, are you not claiming inspiration above Paul?

In love,

Mark

Ellen White actually answers this beautifully.

Quote:

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

Why does God seem like a consuming fire to the wicked? Could it be that in the presence of God, there is a bright light that reveals everything to the individual. They look back and know all they have done and are torn up inside. It consumes them and drives them mad. Daniel felt the same way, it was a dreadful experience to be in the presence of holiness. Yet to the saint, Gods glory is beautiful. Why? Because there is no sin in them, nothing to be ashamed of.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

My kingdom is not of this world.

Here Jesus is saying, I do not belong to this world.

Quote:

If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews;

What He is saying here is. If My kingdom was from this world, my servants would fight you, because that is how things are done on this world.

Quote:

but now My kingdom is not from here.(John 18:36)

He is saying that His kingdom isn't from here, so He doesn't kill, and destroy like the people on this world. He does things different where He is from!

Quote:

Pilate therefore said to Him, "Are You a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say rightly that I am a king."

And a beautiful king He is!

Quote:

For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice(John 18:37)

He is saying here, that what He is about to do will reveal the truth to the world. He is showing us what He is really like! That He would give up life, give up being God to give all of us a chance to live! How incredible is that?! It makes me want to get on the ground and kiss His feet. To grab a hold of Him and never let go! That is the God that I worship.

[Robert]

Quote:

I am just urging caution my friend.

Well, thank you for your concern....

Lutz13,

What these folks are trying to do is take the focus off the truth you are presenting and turn it on you. Now you're having to defend yourself. Don't do it! Tell'm : back to the subject!!!

Rob

[Robert]

Excellent!!!

[Robert]

Is this really our God, or is He assuming the blame until "the day of atonement"?

"I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, And my sword shall devour flesh; With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the head of the leaders of the enemy." [ASV]

[Planey]

I have a question which indirectly pertains to this topic of whether God directly causes actions against sinners.

What happened in heaven after Satan's rebellion and his swaying one third of the angels there to his side. The Bible says there was war in heaven, and that this mob was thrown out.

Or did they fight among themselves then exile themselves from their previous home?

Graeme

[Gerr]

You may not get an answer, Graeme. I ask the same question a few pages back but it was totally ignored.

[Twilight]

Quote:

I am just urging caution my friend.

Well, thank you for your concern. I have talked to God a lot about this, and told Him if I am going too far and am wrong about this to pull me away. Instead He keeps showing me more evidence that leads me closer to His love. How do I know this is from Him? That is a good question. A really good question. Jesus says if a doctrine gives glory to God, then it is true. This message shows Gods glory, and it is beautiful. That is not all though. I'm compelled to go the extra mile for others now. I've never felt this before, it was always about me. I am truly starting to understand what Gods love is, and He is showing and helping me peel off the self love that I have.

Quote:

Do not be so dogmatic in your views would be my counsel.

Allow that you can be led wrongly, but listen to the objections people make to your arguments. Do not assume because they do not agree, that they are all axe wielding maniacs that want to chop everybodies head off.

I don't think people are axe wielding maniacs for not believing this message. The sad thing is, is when God pulls His spirit away, it is going to get really bad. That is why, before He does, a last message goes out to the world that reveals His character. To show His true glory! This message is it, and I want to share it with as many as I can. This message will be what allows the 144,000 to stand in the time of trouble.

Quote:

My point is this, we cannot fully understand God's Character as finite beings, but He has revealed enough that we can trust Him.

If something is difficult to understand, we do not throw God out, but we allow for ourselves to have fallible minds.

What makes you think I am throwing God out?

Quote:

I asked you this before, forgive me if I did not see your reply.

But you point to the Leading of the Holy Spirit as your "safety net", but you have a problem here.

If Moses could not discern the leading of the Holy Spirit (because he did not know who he was talking to as you claim), then how can you be sure that you are lead by the Holy Spirit and not the enemy?

The same goes when Paul says that "God is a consuming fire". When you say He is not, are you not claiming inspiration above Paul?

In love,

Mark

Ellen White actually answers this beautifully.

Quote:

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.

Why does God seem like a consuming fire to the wicked? Could it be that in the presence of God, there is a bright light that reveals everything to the individual. They look back and know all they have done and are torn up inside. It consumes them and drives them mad. Daniel felt the same way, it was a dreadful experience to be in the presence of holiness. Yet to the saint, Gods glory is beautiful. Why? Because there is no sin in them, nothing to be ashamed of.

Do you understand how sin is overcome Lutz?

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I have a question which indirectly pertains to this topic of whether God directly causes actions against sinners.

What happened in heaven after Satan's rebellion and his swaying one third of the angels there to his side. The Bible says there was war in heaven, and that this mob was thrown out.

Or did they fight among themselves then exile themselves from their previous home?

Graeme

"and the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Do you understand how sin is overcome Lutz?

Through Christ.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Could it be that in the presence of God, there is a bright light that reveals everything to the individual. They look back and know all they have done and are torn up inside. It consumes them and drives them mad. Daniel felt the same way, it was a dreadful experience to be in the presence of holiness. Yet to the saint, Gods glory is beautiful. Why? Because there is no sin in them, nothing to be ashamed of.

Do you understand how sin is overcome Lutz?

Mark

It might be helpful to clarify the difference between being justified by the continuous cleansing by the blood of Jesus, which is justification, and being without sin by the action of

a life lived after translation, which is absolute sanctification and of which no man, other than those already delivered to heaven, are there yet.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 KJV

"If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,)..." 1 Kings 8:46 KJV

"So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”"John 8:9 NKJV

"If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."1 John 1:8 NIV

"And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death."Revelation 12:11 KJV

Blessings!

[Twilight]

Quote:

Do you understand how sin is overcome Lutz?

Through Christ.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/246250.html#Post246250

I have moved this question to a new thread.

If you are willing to share your thoughts there.

I open that of course to all...

Mark :-)

[LifeHiscost]

I've got bad news for most Adventist concerning the judgment. In the IJ God's doesn't look at your acts, He looks at your motives.

I've been an Adventist for over 40 years and haven't had the opportunity to talk with "most Adventists" about their beliefs, so would like to know where you get this information about most of the Adventists. Seems to me if you've been hanging out with the scribes and the Pharisees, it would be a good idea to find other company if you are unable to be a motivation to them for change for the better.

"If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler." 1 Peter 4:15 NIV

Regards!

[Robert]

The Bible says there was war in heaven, and that this mob was thrown out.

Why do folks think in one dimension? Do you really believe that Lucifer and 1/3 the angels had a physical fight with God and the other angels? Please!

2 Cor 10:3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world.

John 18:36 if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight...

Remember, Satan was not unmasked until the cross. There he was exposed as a murderer, but indirectly.

There was no blood shed in heaven, there was a war of ideas - agape vs. self-love. God did not allow Lucifer to develop his love of self in heaven or else heaven would be like this world.

I think you are reading human actions into "there was war in heaven"?

Rob

[Gail]

Quote:

There was no blood shed in heaven, there was a war of ideas - agape vs. self-love.

And THEN they were given a toss? (j/k Rob )

[Robert]

Quote:

There was no blood shed in heaven, there was a war of ideas - agape vs. self-love.

And THEN they were given a toss? (j/k Rob )

Why do we believe God acts violently? That is a human emotion. We live in a violent world.

Lucifer was most like given a choice:

Remain in heaven, but under agape

or

Find someone who would buy in Lucifer's love of self.

He found solace in this world....Hence he is the god, lord of this world. His principle is seen everywhere.

[Robert]

You may not get an answer, Graeme. I ask the same question a few pages back but it was totally ignored.

What happened with the character of God in the church? You guys act more worldly then spiritual! The disciples were always ready for a good fight...or to bring down fire out of heaven...

Look at Christ's life....That's how the Father is....

[Robert]

Do you understand how sin is overcome Lutz?

Mark

Oh boy....I guess you have overcome the world? And that means the principle of this world, our bent-to-self. Are you going to tell me that there's no self-interest...self-seeking and self-love in your life? First read Rom 3:23/1 John 1:8

case closed,

back to subject....

Rob

[Lutz13]

Jude says the left on their own so...

[Lutz13]

Here is something else to think about.

"Those who see you will gaze at you, and consider you, saying: Is this the man who made the earth tremble, who shook kingdoms, who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities, who did not open the house of his prisoners?"(Isaiah 14:16-17) This verse is of course referring to Lucifer. Notice how well it connects with Ezekiel. "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you."(Ezekiel 28:9)

[Lutz13]

More to think about:

"You have heard that it was said "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy"(Matthew 5:43) I will show you where this command came from in a moment. "But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust."(Matthew 5:44-45) If we do these things, we are sons of God, and we will know the Father. So ask yourself, where was the source from to hate your neighbor? "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do, He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."(John 8:44)

[Guest WilloMar]

There are certain truths we must know when studying Scripture, e.g. who is the tempter? “...tempted of the devil....tempter came to Him (Matt. 4:1, 3).” “...that Satan tempt(s) you not (1 Cor. 7:5)...” It’s clear, isn’t it, that Satan/devil is the tempter. But, wasn’t Abraham tempted by God? “And it came to pass...that God did temp Abraham (Gen. 22:1)...” Tempt, test, assay, prove and try come from the same word. Now let's read James 1:13: “Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am being tempted by God’; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.” We must use this knowledge when studying the Word of God.

Another truth about God is: “My covenant I will not violate, nor will I alter the utterance of My lips (Ps. 89:34).” “God is not a man, that He should lie, nor a son of man, that He should repent; has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good (Num. 23:19)?”

Also, “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning (James 1:17).” And, “I know, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before Him (Eccles. 3:14).” And, “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to-day, and for ever (Heb. 13:8).”

Now, for the wrath of God: “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness.... Wherefore God also gave them up....For this cause God gave them up....And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over (Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28)...” “Then God turned, and gave them up (Acts 7:42)...” “He made a way to His anger; He spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence (Ps. 78:50).” “But My people would not hearken to My voice; and Israel would none of Me. So I gave them up unto their own hearts’ lust: and they walked in their own counsels (Ps. 82:11, 12).” “And He shall bring upon them their own iniquity, and shall cut them off in their own wickedness; yea, the Lord our God shall cut them off (Ps. 94:23).” “How shall I give thee up, Ephraim (Hos. 11:8)...?” (Compare Pro. 1:24-33; 5:22; Jer. 25:31; Ezek. 38:21) Now, do you want to know how the wicked are destroyed? First read: Joel 3:9-14, then read what happened there in 2 Chron. 20:1-24.

Let's prepare for the glorious coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!

[LifeHiscost]

Why do we believe God acts violently?

When He finds it necessary, yes!

"And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the LORD destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah"Genesis 13:10 KJV

Where do we find in the Word that the Lord stepped back to allow the devil to do the destruction? As far as the souls that were destroyed, the Lord did step back earlier to allow the free will of the Sodomites to debauch themselves, essentially destroying themselves. The destruction of their bodies by fire is properly noted to be of God.

"....but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.

And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

And he said, Oh let not the LORD be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake." Genesis 18:22-26,32 KJV

"And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:

For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it." Genesis 19:12,13 KJV

It might be argued this to be God of the OC. However was His character of Love different during that span of time?

"Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."1 Corinthians 10:1-5 KJV

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever."Hebrews 13:8 All underlined mine LHC

Regards!