Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Gerr]

Quote:

Indeed. If I only had the Old Testament as my guide, I would truly believe in a destructive God. Yet since we have the New Testament and saw who God truly was, we have a light that exposes much of what happened in the old. Clearly "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'"(Matthew 5:43) It is made clear where that inspiration came from. We know it wasn't from God, cause He rebukes it right here. "But I say to you love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you."(Matthew 5:44)

Hate rules this world my friend. It is its strength and power. Love rules the Kingdom of Heaven, and Love conquers all. "But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things will be added to you."(Luke 12:32) Seek love instead of hate. Patience instead of anger.

Is that how you view justice? Hate? Revenge? If so, then I can understand why you discount this aspect of God's character. But justice has nothing to do with hate or revenge. Even little children intuitively know that when someone does something bad to someone else and goes scot free, that there is something that is quite wrong. If there is no hell for the wicked, then neither should be a heaven for believers.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him.

Your on crack...

Rob

And the Apostle John was on LSD?

[Gerr]

Well Gerry, the bible is full of contradictions. I'm not willing to close my eyes and pretend they are not there. That is why I am taking this journey and trying to understand them. Jesus said to learn of Him. [/]

If the Bible is as full of contradictions as you say, you might as well get rid of it. How can you have confidence in something that is "full of contradictions?"

The fact is, for a book that was written by so many authors, there is an amazingly miraculous harmony in Scriptures. The discrepancies are minor and will not affect one's salvation.

Most of the so-called contradictions are more apparent than real. There would be a lot less contradictions if we follow EGW's counsel, i.e. "take the Bible as it reads." Accept the plain sense of Scripture unless a metaphor or figure of speech is employed.

[Lutz13]

Is that how you view justice? Hate? Revenge? If so, then I can understand why you discount this aspect of God's character. But justice has nothing to do with hate or revenge. Even little children intuitively know that when someone does something bad to someone else and goes scot free, that there is something that is quite wrong. If there is no hell for the wicked, then neither should be a heaven for believers.

Gerry, when someone kills someone. The victims family seeks justice. What kind of justice? They want the suspect dead. An eye for an eye if you will. If you do not see that as revenge, then I do not know what to tell you...

"You have heard that is was said, 'an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also."(Matthew 5:38-40)

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear Gerry, I guess I don’t know the E. S. V. translation, but I think you copied verse 7 wrong. I’m guessing now, but shouldn’t it read: “War arose in heaven?” You wrote, "No war arose in heaven...” There was a war, but not the kind that erupts here on earth: “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God (James 1:20).” We know that Lucifer wasn’t killed, but were any of his angels? Was there actual bloodshed? I don’t believe so. We must remember that Revelation is a book of pictograms to help us mere mortals to understand. Although these symbols are to help us, they also can hinder us; depending on what kind of reader we are.

Are we surface readers, or gold-diggers searching for buried scriptural treasure? That’s what we must decide because there’s a big difference. If we are surface readers we read the Bible like a novel. That’s okay if you’re reading it only for pleasure ---- though I can’t imagine pleasure from Bible stories, especially the Old Testament. In other words, the point I’m trying to make is, we’ll get out of it exactly what we put into it.

So what was the war? Contention! Satan was so convincing he deceived a third of the angels to follow him. Then, because of his selfishness, his interest only in him, he and his followers couldn’t stand any longer in the presentence of a Holy God: “Good and evil never harmonize. Between light and darkness there can be no compromise. Truth is light revealed; error is darkness. Light has no fellowship with darkness, righteousness no fellowship with unrighteousness. . . .” In Heavenly Places 260. “The natural (sinful) heart is at enmity against God, and will resist the clearest evidence of truth. The wicked will not endure the light that condemns their wrong course of action.” 5T 341

So, though it wasn’t a bloody battle, it still wasn’t a friendly dance!

I really don’t have a problem with “God’s revealed thoughts and words,” but I do have a problem with private interpretations!

Let’s all prepare for Jesus!

[Lutz13]

If the Bible is as full of contradictions as you say, you might as well get rid of it. How can you have confidence in something that is "full of contradictions?"

The fact is, for a book that was written by so many authors, there is an amazingly miraculous harmony in Scriptures. The discrepancies are minor and will not affect one's salvation.

Most of the so-called contradictions are more apparent than real. There would be a lot less contradictions if we follow EGW's counsel, i.e. "take the Bible as it reads." Accept the plain sense of Scripture unless a metaphor or figure of speech is employed.

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it"(John 8:43) Take a close look at this statement. Is Jesus being a hypocrite?

Lets get a tally here.

[flameon88]

interesting thread, will take time to read..

99 pages is abit of overload

[Guest WilloMar]

Gerry, I’m he who said that those who say the Creator destroys must repent. You asked, “Repent? Is it a sin to believe God destroys evil?” To answer your question about God destroying evil, He did that on the cross. To answer, of what you have to repent ---- the answer is simple: For breaking the third commandment: “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord in vain.” How, you ask? You are taking His name in vain by attributing to the Lord’s Holy name, Satan’s character. Name means much, study it out: Name, Seal, Glory and Character. They are all the same.

You say you have an open mind... all you need is a clear “Thus says the Lord.” Here’s one, “Thou shalt not kill (Ex. 20:13).” I think that’s very “Clear!”

Let’s be ready for Jesus!

[Twilight]

Gerry, I’m he who said that those who say the Creator destroys must repent. You asked, “Repent? Is it a sin to believe God destroys evil?” To answer your question about God destroying evil, He did that on the cross. To answer, of what you have to repent ---- the answer is simple: For breaking the third commandment: “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord in vain.” How, you ask? You are taking His name in vain by attributing to the Lord’s Holy name, Satan’s character. Name means much, study it out: Name, Seal, Glory and Character. They are all the same.

You say you have an open mind... all you need is a clear “Thus says the Lord.” Here’s one, “Thou shalt not kill (Ex. 20:13).” I think that’s very “Clear!”

Let’s be ready for Jesus!

Actually that can be translated, thou shalt not murder.

Mark :-)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Actually that can be translated, thou shalt not murder.

Mark :-)

Yeah? Well, you are right! It is also translated into...

a primitive root; properly to dash in pieces, i.e. kill (a human being), especially to murder :- put to death, kill, (man-) slay (-er), murder (-er)

Where else have I heard such nonsense....Ah yeah a common theme from the crusaders. "To kill an infidel is not murder..."

Twilight, what did Jesus say? He actually summed up the 10 commandments into two simple commands. Love God, love your neighbor. Killing your neighbor for any reason a sign of love? Didn't Jesus also say. "Love your enemies, bless those who curse you"

I'm sorry, but your statement makes no sense.

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear Twilight, yes it can be translated, "Murder." Lutz13 gave a good response. Now, what is the difference between kill and "Murder"? Was it "Murder" when babies died in the flood? How about when the first born died in Egypt? I'm sure there were babies and pregnant women dying there, too. Let's not get all mixed up with words of the same meaning. Isn't murder when someone innocent is killed? Who among us is innocent? The only ones I can think of are those who haven't sinned, such as Jesus, babies born and about to be born... and... You? I can't think of anyone else. I could go on, and on, and on.... But what the point. You have your mind made up already..... Right?

We must prepare for Christ's Advent!

[Robert]

Actually that can be translated, thou shalt not murder.

Mark :-)

So, if someone kills your wife (assuming you have one) that's okay...just don't murder her! teehe

[Robert]

In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him.

Use some common sense, Gerry. You think in such a limited dimension. Perhaps you watch too much TV?

God, if He was aggressive, wouldn't need to be guarded. He could wink His eye and His enemies would be gone.

Think outside the box.

BTW, Jesus said that He was servant of all. He is the king who lives to serve.

[Robert]

Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are missing the point?

When the debt is paid, the debtor goes free!!! What is there about that principle that YOU don't understand?

Christ has paid everyone's debt, but some will reject it.

[Gerr]

Dear Gerry, I guess I don’t know the E. S. V. translation, but I think you copied verse 7 wrong. I’m guessing now, but shouldn’t it read: “War arose in heaven?” You wrote, "No war arose in heaven...”

Yep, a typo. Shows you how important even one letter could be. The missing letter is "W", and "No" should have read "Now".

Quote:

There was a war, but not the kind that erupts here on earth: “For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God (James 1:20).” We know that Lucifer wasn’t killed, but were any of his angels? Was there actual bloodshed? I don’t believe so. We must remember that Revelation is a book of pictograms to help us mere mortals to understand. Although these symbols are to help us, they also can hinder us; depending on what kind of reader we are.

How was the war fought? I have given it some thought. No, I wouldn't be so naive as to think they fought with guns and canons, or knives and swords. But remember, there are two good angels for every bad one. The Revelator wrote, "And the great dragon was THROWN down, ......he was THROWN down to the earth, and his angels were THROWN down with him." Rev 12:9 ESV. I would imagine two good angels just physically grabbed one bad angel and just threw them out of heaven.

Quote:

Are we surface readers, or gold-diggers searching for buried scriptural treasure? That’s what we must decide because there’s a big difference. If we are surface readers we read the Bible like a novel. That’s okay if you’re reading it only for pleasure ---- though I can’t imagine pleasure from Bible stories, especially the Old Testament. In other words, the point I’m trying to make is, we’ll get out of it exactly what we put into it.

So what was the war? Contention! Satan was so convincing he deceived a third of the angels to follow him. Then, because of his selfishness, his interest only in him, he and his followers couldn’t stand any longer in the presentence of a Holy God: “Good and evil never harmonize. Between light and darkness there can be no compromise. Truth is light revealed; error is darkness. Light has no fellowship with darkness, righteousness no fellowship with unrighteousness. . . .” In Heavenly Places 260. “The natural (sinful) heart is at enmity against God, and will resist the clearest evidence of truth. The wicked will not endure the light that condemns their wrong course of action.” 5T 341

So, though it wasn’t a bloody battle, it still wasn’t a friendly dance!

I really don’t have a problem with “God’s revealed thoughts and words,” but I do have a problem with private interpretations!

Let’s all prepare for Jesus!

Since you quoted SOP, I will refer you to her book, "The Story of Redemption," (I think that's the book) where she mentions that Lucifer worked in secrecy for quite sometime. He appeared to be working on the side of God when in actuality, he was undermining His gov't. Later it broke out into open revolt. That's probably when the "war" took place, when the rebellion came out in the open.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Has it ever occurred to you that YOU are missing the point?

When the debt is paid, the debtor goes free!!! What is there about that principle that YOU don't understand?

Christ has paid everyone's debt, but some will reject it.

Again, let me remind you, Robert, that the bank could care less as to who pays your debt as long as it is paid. If someone else pays the debt, the bank is happy and won't come hounding you to pay it.

Here's how I look at it in metaphorical terms: Jesus wrote a check for everyone on Calvary to pay their debts, but mine is no good until I cash it in.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

In heaven He was King. He had His servants. And they did fight for Him.

Use some common sense, Gerry. You think in such a limited dimension. Perhaps you watch too much TV?

Would you like to come and visit with me a few days and see how I spend my day? Time is too short for me to be spending too much time on TV. About the only thing that's hard for me to resist on TV is when the Lakers are playing. I may watch the Dodgers on occasion or the Rams.

Quote:

God, if He was aggressive, wouldn't need to be guarded. He could wink His eye and His enemies would be gone.

Think outside the box.

If you asked my wife, she would tell you that I am generally an outside-of-the box thinking person. I have no qualms challenging traditions that are either not right or don't make sense. Theologically speaking, my out-of-the-box thoughts have to be guided by Scripture. And Scripture says: "Now war arose in heaven....."

Quote:

BTW, Jesus said that He was servant of all. He is the king who lives to serve.

As King He also rules. And His servants "serve Him night and day."

[Gerr]

Gerry, I’m he who said that those who say the Creator destroys must repent. You asked, “Repent? Is it a sin to believe God destroys evil?” To answer your question about God destroying evil, He did that on the cross. To answer, of what you have to repent ---- the answer is simple: For breaking the third commandment: “Thou shalt not take the Name of the Lord in vain.” How, you ask? You are taking His name in vain by attributing to the Lord’s Holy name, Satan’s character. Name means much, study it out: Name, Seal, Glory and Character. They are all the same.

You say you have an open mind... all you need is a clear “Thus says the Lord.” Here’s one, “Thou shalt not kill (Ex. 20:13).” I think that’s very “Clear!”

/

Yeah, it's so clear that that is the reason I don't go around murdering people!

Isn't that quite a stretch for you to say that I am taking the Lord's name in vain because I believe He destroys evil? That God destroys evil and will eventually totally eradicate it from His creation is a theme that goes from Gen to Rev. Do I need to quote you references? But since you start with the premise that God destroys no one, then you have to use some mental gymnastics to explain away very clear statements of Scripture rather than taking them as they read.

Let me ask you: Do you consider judges to be evil for sending rapists and murderers to jail? or even to the electric chair?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

How was the war fought? I have given it some thought. No, I wouldn't be so naive as to think they fought with guns and canons, or knives and swords. But remember, there are two good angels for every bad one. The Revelator wrote, "And the great dragon was THROWN down, ......he was THROWN down to the earth, and his angels were THROWN down with him." Rev 12:9 ESV. I would imagine two good angels just physically grabbed one bad angel and just threw them out of heaven.

Yes, we know how you would do it.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:8-9) "And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode , He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6) Why would they leave? "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed"(John 3:20)

[Gerr]

Do you believe judges are murderers for sending serial murderers or criminals who commit the most heinous crimes to the electric chair?

[Robert]

Here's how I look at it in metaphorical terms: Jesus wrote a check for everyone on Calvary to pay their debts, but mine is no good until I cash it in.

Sounds wonderful Gerry....You can sing, "oh that will be GLORY FOR ME"!

Sorry, the cross has one verdict on the flesh: Death! No pride...no I have a check from Jesus...no Jesus' payment wasn't enough...or it was incomplete.

Sounds like your flesh is working overtime. Maybe you'd like a bit more credit? Perhaps you'd like to glory a bit more in your flesh?

Rob

[Gerr]

Quote:

How was the war fought? I have given it some thought. No, I wouldn't be so naive as to think they fought with guns and canons, or knives and swords. But remember, there are two good angels for every bad one. The Revelator wrote, "And the great dragon was THROWN down, ......he was THROWN down to the earth, and his angels were THROWN down with him." Rev 12:9 ESV. I would imagine two good angels just physically grabbed one bad angel and just threw them out of heaven.

Yes, we know how you would do it.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,' says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways, and My thoughts than your thoughts."(Isaiah 55:8-9) "And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode , He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day."(Jude 6) Why would they leave? "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed"(John 3:20)

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Left the bliss of heaven voluntarily? Have you ever seen an evil ruler leave his position voluntarily? No! The Scripture says they were "THROWN DOWN". Those are NOT my thoughts or methods as you seem to intimate. That is God's revelation. You quote Jude as though he is contradicting John! Not so! The same Spirit that inspired John cannot be contradicting Himself when He inspires Jude! But when you start with a wrong premise, then it is inevitable that the two writers are contradicting themselves! Accept the plain sense of Scripture as it reads and you will find surprising harmony.

[Robert]

About the only thing that's hard for me to resist on TV is when the Lakers are playing. I may watch the Dodgers on occasion or the Rams.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Here's how I look at it in metaphorical terms: Jesus wrote a check for everyone on Calvary to pay their debts, but mine is no good until I cash it in.

Sounds wonderful Gerry....You can sing, "oh that will be GLORY FOR ME"!

Sorry, the cross has one verdict on the flesh: Death! No pride...no I have a check from Jesus...no Jesus' payment wasn't enough...or it was incomplete.

Sounds like your flesh is working overtime. Maybe you'd like a bit more credit? Perhaps you'd like to glory a bit more in your flesh?

Rob

Now can you please show how I can be claiming glory for cashing in the check Jesus wrote for me to pay my debt? Where? I cash the check when I put my faith/trust on Him as MY Savior. Until I cash that check, it is totally useless for me! So where is the merit for me?

[Robert]

Accept the plain sense of Scripture as it reads and you will find surprising harmony.

The natural man can't understand the scriptures. To him it looks like contradiction after contradiction.

The greatest problem, when it comes to men studying the Bible, is that many study it with human spectacles. They place human attributes on God, which brings Him down to the level of sinful mankind.