Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So? Do you just discount them because they don't agree with a few misunderstood statements at the beginning of the book of Job?

this comment was taken out of context' date=' nor were my other comments dealt with. [/quote']

Okay, correct me because I didn't mean to take anything out of context.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

None of the opposing team has answered this. Why?

The "torture", as God's actions are referred to, are a result of the power that is given previously by God to His thinking creatures, to escape death as long as possible.

When first given to man and others of the host of heaven, it was meant to be a blessing to preserve life that had a quality to bless all others. When God's plans were not believed to be for their own good, some deliberately used the gift to pursue life while attempting to avoid the Lifegiver. Some having greater strength, as evidenced by their position, still seek to live without God's rule in their lives, but eventually succumb to the inevitable wages of sin.

Some last longer because of their greater strength, thus suffer longer.

BTW, the underlined above reveals something maybe why this thread is so long. Some desire all to be in heaven eventually. Others belong to an opposing team where there will be winners and losers.

Regards!

[Robert]

Some last longer because of their greater strength, thus suffer longer.

Okay...I'll give you this, you made an attempt to answer....

Now remember we are talking about a lake of fire....A magnitude of destruction that this world has never seen. Fire and brimstone. I know what fire is, but what about brimstone?

Brimstone:

Brimstone is yellow, elemental sulfur, which burns with a very very hot blue flame that you can only just see, to give the highly unpleasantly pungent gas, sulfur dioxide. Brimstone is frequently found round volcanic vents.

Okay, Life, how long would a strong man live if he fell into a river of lava? 2 seconds, maybe 3?

Now, if this lake of fire is not everywhere then I suppose a strong man could take the heat for a while and avoid lava, brimstone and such.....Is that your point?

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Sounds so pious, doesn't it? No self-love. But you keep ignoring the second great commandment: YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF.

Yes, you are to take that selfish love you have of yourself, and use it for your neighbor instead.

Since the love of self is supposedly mainly, if not totally self-destructive, I'm wondering why Jesus promised to each church, His bride, all those rewards for the things they had done. Seems somewhat inconsistent to condemn love of self and then turn right around and use rewards for self to motivate toward the kingdom of heaven.

" He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Rev 3:5 NKJV

"“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write,...See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you. Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world "Rev 3:8-10 and onward for the other 5 of the churches.

Regards!

[Robert]

Okay, guys/gals, the question is, is "God's wrath" passive or active? I submit it is passive. When rejected...when persistently unwelcomed, the Sovereign God of the universe simply retreats.

I can't directly prove this with the flood and the lake of fire, but I can elsewhere. The question is why would God change when He says, "I change not"? Why would He, in one instant, go from passive to active?

Take King Saul. The boy was a mess....He had issues and on top of this the Bible states that he forsook the Lord. What happened?

Saul was in battle. He was losing. He didn't want to be tortured by his enemies so he took his own life.

Yet God says that He killed Saul. How?

Again, in this sense:

My anger [God's wrath] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

That is passive. God, in one sense, could have saved Saul...but not in righteousness. Huh? ?

You see God can't force....You have to allow Him to be apart of your life. He needs a welcome invitation.

Saul rejected him. The devil deceived him through the witch. Saul went into battle after forsaking the Lord. God wasn't with Saul. Saul killed himself. God assumes the blame because none of this would have happened if He hadn't allowed Lucifer to develop his brand of love.

But, as I said, "the love of self" sounds great....So the only way God could prove Lucifer wrong was to allow him/it the room to put his theory to the test.

[Robert]

"He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels." Rev 3:5 NKJV

Jesus is talking in the context of faith....

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Is it possible there's still something you need to learn about the law? That the law in fact mirrors the holy, just, good, and loving character of God?

"So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good." Rom 7:12.

If I try to follow the law, I will be miserable and fall over and over again. If I keep my eye on Christ and draw power from Him, then I will fulfill the law. Otherwise, it is impossible.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

a little bit of study shows that God doesnt burn anyone up at the second coming, which this seems to refer to. at the second coming the people turn on each other and there is a massive slaughter.

Second resurrection.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

BTW, the underlined above reveals something maybe why this thread is so long. Some desire all to be in heaven eventually. Others belong to an opposing team where there will be winners and losers.

I wish everyone would make it. Yes even my enemies. Sadly that won't be the case because they will choose a life of self destruction.

[Lutz13]

Saul is the clearest example on how God destroys.

"...Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it"(1 Samuel 31:4)"But he did not inquire of the LORD; therefore He[God] killed him[saul], and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse"(1 Chronicles 10:14)"I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath"(Hosea 13:11)

Saul actually fell on his own sword.

When we destroy we move towards the victim with a weapon in our hands but God carries no weapons but moves away, laying down control of the destructive powers. When God did that Saul was left without protection and died. It was the same with the flood, Sodom, all God’s dealings with ancient Israel, the destruction of Israel, etc. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression, but leaves the rejecters of His mercy to themselves, to reap what they have sown.

[LifeHiscost]

Jesus has always wanted His children to recognize they couldn't keep His commandments. However some have then concluded the solution was to do away with what God gave. Others have concluded, as a result of Jesus' own words, the solution to be inviting the Holy Spirit to do, in a person, what the person was incapable of doing on their own.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."John 15:10 KJV

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."Philippians 2:13

KJV

Right now I can't think of a Scripture that says explicitly that you won't get to heaven if you don't keep the commandments. However I can name one that tells the unenviable position of one who refuses to keep them and teaches others the same.

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19 NKJV

And it seems to me, if Jesus is willing to give the power to accomplish what He said is possible, it could only honor and glorify Him if we agreed with Him. As well as giving a greater weight of glory for those who inherit eternal life.

Regards!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Jesus has always wanted His children to recognize they couldn't keep His commandments. However some have then concluded the solution was to do away with what God gave. Others have concluded, as a result of Jesus' own words, the solution to be inviting the Holy Spirit to do, in a person, what the person was incapable of doing on their own.

"If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."John 15:10 KJV

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."Philippians 2:13

KJV

Right now I can't think of a Scripture that says explicitly that you won't get to heaven if you don't keep the commandments. However I can name one that tells the unenviable position of one who refuses to keep them and teaches others the same.

"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19 NKJV

And it seems to me, if Jesus is willing to give the power to accomplish what He said is possible, it could only honor and glorify Him if we agreed with Him. As well as giving a greater weight of glory for those who inherit eternal life.

Regards! peace

Yes! There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments. In fact I do agree with them. I just wish I was shown earlier that my focus needs to be on Christ, and I will begin to naturally follow them. It was such a burden before I came to the truth that only Christ can give me the willingness to follow them. I kept thinking it would have to be an all of a sudden thing. Maybe I was just around the wrong preachers. I dunno. My current church understands the need to focus on Jesus, and not the law. Because Christ is a fulfillment of the law. The more I get to know Him, the more I will follow His law. Because His law describes who He is. Does that make sense?

[LifeHiscost]

"Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil?"

Not wishing to diminish your testimony one bit, Gerry, however it does seem necessary to add somewhat to the story of Job. I noticed you used the word "blameless", as opposed to the word "perfect" as used in the KJV.

This helps to clarify just where Job was when God pointed to Job as a faithful servant. Because Job made daily sacrifices to God, he was seen by God as perfect, the same as you or I are seen as perfect by God, because we're each cleansed by the blood of Jesus of any stain of sin. And we're viewed by God as spotless as the righteousness of Christ is spotless, just the same as Job.

The reality of this world also holds true for Job, as it holds true for us.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives."Romans 3:23 AMP

This was as true for Job as it is true for us today. While it could be argued that Robert's definition of Job's failures are not necessarily what Robert thinks they are, still Job was part of fallen human beings and in need of the cleansing blood in order for God to see him as "blameless".

Hope I didn't throw a monkey wrench into your witness, as I think your adherence to upholding the Ten Commandments to be far superior than the effort to trash them. Which is probably the understatement of the year considering the ridicule heaped upon you for upholding something God felt important enough to write with His own hand.

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Now, if this lake of fire is not everywhere then I suppose a strong man could take the heat for a while and avoid lava, brimstone and such.....Is that your point?

Rob

I know you tried really hard to understand the gist of it, and you did exceptionally well. However perhaps we don't really know the extent of power the devil has to give to his adherents when forced into a corner.

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."Ephesians 6:12 KJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

if you are coming from the "character of God" perspective, believe me you are doing the movement a great disservice. they do not twist and manipulate texts to go contrary to the great God of heaven.

You must understand first, teresaq, that Robert does not believe the larger half of the bible as being relevant to Christians today. Does that make it somewhat more understandable? Robert can clarify if I've misstated his good intentions.

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

Yes! There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments. In fact I do agree with them. I just wish I was shown earlier that my focus needs to be on Christ, and I will begin to naturally follow them. It was such a burden before I came to the truth that only Christ can give me the willingness to follow them. I kept thinking it would have to be an all of a sudden thing. Maybe I was just around the wrong preachers. I dunno. My current church understands the need to focus on Jesus, and not the law. Because Christ is a fulfillment of the law. The more I get to know Him, the more I will follow His law. Because His law describes who He is. Does that make sense?

"THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,..." Hebrews 10:16 NASB emphasis theirs LHC

This is a text taken from the OC and repeated under the NC as necessary for godly living.

Blessings!

[teresaq]

Quote:

a little bit of study shows that God doesnt burn anyone up at the second coming, which this seems to refer to. at the second coming the people turn on each other and there is a massive slaughter.

Second resurrection.

this was the reason for my comments #245596

[teresaq]

Quote:

Jesus has always wanted His children to recognize they couldn't keep His commandments. However some have then concluded the solution was to do away with what God gave. Others have concluded, as a result of Jesus' own words, the solution to be inviting the Holy Spirit to do, in a person, what the person was incapable of doing on their own.....

Yes! There is nothing wrong with the ten commandments. In fact I do agree with them. I just wish I was shown earlier that my focus needs to be on Christ, and I will begin to naturally follow them. It was such a burden before I came to the truth that only Christ can give me the willingness to follow them. I kept thinking it would have to be an all of a sudden thing. Maybe I was just around the wrong preachers. I dunno. My current church understands the need to focus on Jesus, and not the law. Because Christ is a fulfillment of the law. The more I get to know Him, the more I will follow His law. Because His law describes who He is. Does that make sense?

i believe i understand your intent and so can agree one hundred percent. if we study Christ, Who lived the law perfectly, we will become like Him through surrender. whatever we dwell on is what we tend to become like.

your intent for this thread was a good thought. but it seems to me to have seriously derailed quite rapidly, which i find very sad since i am well acquainted with the message and mission of the "character of God" ministries.

[oldsailor29]

Jesus has always wanted His children to recognize they couldn't keep His commandments.

I was always taught that this was Satan's deception.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I was always taught that this was Satan's deception.

I'm sure what he meant was "I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without Me you can do nothing"(John 15:5)

[Lutz13]

Quote:

your intent for this thread was a good thought. but it seems to me to have seriously derailed quite rapidly, which i find very sad since i am well acquainted with the message and mission of the "character of God" ministries.

I wouldn't say it got derailed. I am trying to present evidence to show that God has never killed anyone. I don't think He has, and I don't think He ever will. There are many questions that need answered and the typical easy way out response isn't good enough. "He is God, he can if He wants" which is indeed true, I do not dispute that. However, His commands basically say, "This is what I am like" His sacrifice on the cross is saying "This is what I am like, I would rather die forever than for you to miss out on life."

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Jesus has always wanted His children to recognize they couldn't keep His commandments.

I was always taught that this was Satan's deception.

If we could keep His commandments on our own we wouldn't need a Savior.

"“I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."John 15:5 NKJV

"...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. "Philippians 2:13 NKJV

"Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.""1 Corinthians 1:31 NIV

As the glove is lifeless and incapable of functioning on its' own, without the hand, thus man is incapable to function for good or bad, without the direct intervention of God.

"The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word."Hebrews 1:3 NIV

Regards!

[Robert]

Robert does not believe the larger half of the bible as being relevant to Christians today.

Much of the OT is history....Much is also OC, but then you do have the creation story, Abraham, etc. But really I pretty much stay in the NT.....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

I am supposing the Ten Commandments are being referred to here as the law of Moses. Or at the very least, the Old Covenant law that no longer has a part to play in the New Covenant Christian's life.

Let me give you an EGW statement:

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26.

Part to play? Well, what do you mean? If you mean "obey and live" then that is OC legalism.....

As to what laws are under the law of Moses the answer is all the laws contained in the first, five books of the OT. That's the law of Moses.

Should you be quoting Ellen White, when you reject her as a prophet?

Mark :-)

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Let me give you an EGW statement:

The terms of the “old covenant” were, Obey and live: “If a man do, he shall even live in them” (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but “cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them.” Deut. 27:26.

Part to play? Well, what do you mean? If you mean "obey and live" then that is OC legalism.....

As to what laws are under the law of Moses the answer is all the laws contained in the first, five books of the OT. That's the law of Moses.

[/quote']

Should you be quoting Ellen White, when you reject her as a prophet?

Mark :-)

Who told you I reject her? She's not infallible, and according to her own writings, she had limited light. So in with the good, out with the bad (as Redwood states)....