Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[LifeHiscost]

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For love to be true, has to be willing to eliminate evil, otherwise it (love) must love evil also!!!

Thanks for the human definition of love Gerry. Now please explain Gods love.

"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."1 John 4:20 NASB

I'm of the opinion this is possible through the intervention of the Holy Spirit and comes to pass as a result of God's power in those who feel it is His will and power, here and now. Some believe no one on this earth has this love, effectively teaching the error that God is impotent.

For those who believe that the Savior is true to His Word and has something to save us from, His promises become yea and amen.

"For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV Underlined mine LHC

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation"2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV

Regards!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

"If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen."1 John 4:20 NASB

I'm of the opinion this is possible through the intervention of the Holy Spirit and comes to pass as a result of God's power in those who feel it is His will and power, here and now. Some believe no one on this earth has this love, effectively teaching the error that God is impotent.

For those who believe that the Savior is true to His Word and has something to save us from, His promises become yea and amen.

"For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us."

2 Corinthians 1:20 KJV Underlined mine LHC

"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation"2 Corinthians 5:17 NIV

Regards! peace

I believe there are people out there with this love. I know for a fact I do not have it yet. However, I am not focusing on that. What is important is for me to keep my eyes up on Jesus. Then He can mold me into Him.

[Lutz13]

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Just turn to 1 Cor 13 & Ex 20:1-18, if you think that what I described above is merely human love.

Gerry, what I have a hard time with is. This love you keep describing is saying God is going to raise up people who He has already burned, just to burn them up again. How is this even close to love?

Also, I don't see where it says love is going to destroy evil. You see, the way love destroys evil is. When you show compassion on your enemies, they have a change of heart. Yet, because love never uses means of force, it sometimes just has to walk away and let that evil self destruct. Which it will do. Look at the world today and you will see it. Look at the suicide rate in the world. Look at how many drunk drivers die due to their self indulgence of alcohol. Look at the death rate of smokers.(God took that evil and tossed it into the sea for me) Look at the cause of STDs out there. That is the result of sin.

Why does this world keep going? Technically it could have ended when Christ died on the cross. That is when Satans character was revealed to the unfallen worlds. He was judged at that point. Yet we still continue. Because God knows the day is coming when all will reject Him except for His saints. He guards them, and gives up the rest to their own destruction.(Romans 1:18-25)

[LifeHiscost]

"Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out."(John 12:31)"I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me"(John 14:30)"Jesus answered, 'My kingdom is not of this world, if My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.'"(John 18:36)"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."(2 Cor 4:4)

Who was dominion given to when this world was created?

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."(Genesis 1:26)

When Adam and Eve ate the fruit, they handed Satan their world. Since God(Creator) said they would die. Satan said they wouldn't die. They believed Satan over God. By doing so, they made Satan their god.

Satan then injected death and corruption throughout the land.

There is more to be said about the difference between rulership and ownership. However for the sake of brevity, all one has to do to find who men have given their obedience to, is to look around and acknowledge.

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?""Romans 6:16 KJV

It is all freedom of choice until deliberate yielding to satan's lies. Then it becomes bondage. Thus the need for a Reedemer.

Ever heard the song with the title "This is My Father's World"? Was that taken from the Word"

Blessings! Shabat Shalom!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

There is more to be said about the difference between rulership and ownership. However for the sake of brevity, all one has to do to find who men have given their obedience to, is to look around and acknowledge.

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?""Romans 6:16 KJV

It is all freedom of choice until deliberate yielding to satan's lies. Then it becomes bondage. Thus the need for a Reedemer.

Ever heard the song with the title "This is My Father's World"? Was that taken from the Word"

Blessings! Shabat Shalom!

At any rate. It is clear that Satan once had dominion of this world. He lost it when Christ defeated him.

Happy Sabbath to you my friend.

[Robert]

your sick notion of love.

My sick notion of love? Agape is sick????

[Robert]

Since there is no specific texts that says that, I'm supposing you have further substantiating evidence to the facts. Or is this the gospel according to man's wisdom.

Only a legalist wouldn't recognize a legalist.

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

for it has been given to me,

Now these words were directly out of the mouth of the deceiver! And we're asked to believe that? as sufficient evidence. Usurped authority is not ownership. So his statement was based on a lie. If there is a Scripture to the contrary I will stand corrected.

Did Jesus say, "No, that's not true"? No! Why not?

"the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin" [Gal 3:22]

"the whole world is under the control of the evil one" [1 John 5:19]

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

"There will even come a time when anyone who kills you will think he's doing God a favor. They will do these things because they never really understood the Father." [John 16:2,3 MSG]

Behold him who laughs when a paraphrase is used while he himself uses one because it's convenient!

Fair enough:

NIV: a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.

NKJV: the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you F88 because they have not known the Father nor Me.

[Robert]

theses texts were not at the beginning of the book.

[Robert]

So outwardly Job looks obedient, but inwardly all that he does is for self-centered reasons.

"To engage in His service merely for hope of reward [riches, protection, etc] ... would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship." [PP 523]

[Robert]

If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

None of the opposing team has answered this. Why?

[Robert]

Now Job ends up repenting and so do Job's 3 friends. They were accusing him of some secret sin. They were also misrepresenting God's character. That's why at the end of the book of Job you see Job and his 3 friends repenting, but not Elihu! Why? He spoke the truth!!!!

Job 42: 7 After the Lord had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends [i.e., 3], because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves [which, is how they repented]. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has." 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job's prayer.

Where's Elihu listed? He isn't! Why? He didn't misspeak....

[Robert]

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2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

Luke 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts [JUSTIFIES] himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Job's problem was the same as this Pharisee. Now, I'm not questioning Job's faith because Job didn't abandon God during his time of trouble. Job's faith was refined and he came out on the other end a better man for it. But Job did have a problem and that was the sin of self-righteousness!

[Robert]

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2 But Elihu son of Barakel the Buzite, of the family of Ram, became very angry with Job for justifying himself rather than God.

Luke 18:9-14 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everybody else, Jesus told this parable: 10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men--robbers, evildoers, adulterers--or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' 13 "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' 14 "I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts [JUSTIFIES] himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

Job's problem was the same as this Pharisee. Now, I'm not questioning Job's faith because Job didn't abandon God during his time of trouble. Job's faith was refined and he came out on the other end a better man for it. But Job did have a problem and that was the sin of self-righteousness!

More:

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [What does this mean? Rad on:] 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

What's going on here? Like Job, these legalists are justifying themselves before God. Look at all the good things we've done. We deserve heaven!

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

That's right, you that work iniquity. But they claimed to do many wonderful works, right? Yes, but they were doing iniquity. What does this mean? It means that there wasn't any "agape" and only it fulfills the law.

If you want to justify yourself before God because of all your good works, you better not be exhibiting any self-love. After all that's what "iniquity" is....It's "agape love", but bent back towards yourself. Instead of doing things unselfishly, iniquity bends that agape love back towards one's self. So when I help the little old lady across the street I think, "Wow, this sure makes me look good before God" or "I hope she remembers me in her will" am I keeping the law or keeping sin? Answer: The latter!

So righteousness is doing the right thing for the right motive. And agape love never has self in mind. There's no reward for you....Your motive is only to serve others....That's perfection.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock [Jesus Christ].

Click here: On Christ the solid rock I stand

[Robert]

Ever heard the song with the title "This is My Father's World"? ....At any rate. It is clear that Satan once had dominion of this world. He lost it when Christ defeated him.

Well...you and I have been agreeing, but...

Christ defeated sin, true...Christ defeated the devil in this sense, but Christ's objective was not to take this world back. This world will be dissolved...the elements will be burnt up.....There's nothing redeeming in this sin ravaged world. It's polluted...it's basically ruined thanks to Lucifer. God will create a new heaven and a new earth where agape reigns.

Anyway, that's the only disagreement we've had....Keep on keeping on with "the love of God" TU pals

Rob

[Robert]

God will create a new heaven and a new earth where agape reigns.

That means no more love of self. In the love of self you don't care about others....If you do it's to get what you need for yourself. In other words in "iniquity" all you do "is to be seen of men". You love the best seats...to be called "the good looking one" or "the smart one" (he has a Ph.d), etc, etc....

Heaven isn't based on this me, me, me and what's in it for me. Does that mean you'll be poor in heaven? Nope, but your wealth will not be gained by your own self-interests...it will be gained because others are living solely for you and you them:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

No more lies....No more self-righteous hypocrisy...no more BS!!!! No more legalists....No more pretending....No more living for the flesh in all it's forms, because all these things have vanished.

Some day will be together....in heaven!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

your sick notion of love.

My sick notion of love? Agape is sick????

YOUR version of agape IS SICK!!! To wit: to love one's neighbor is to give them everything one owns, no home, no pillow, nothing! No education because those are all for self!

[Gerr]

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If you think the above quote is supporting your notion that God does not destroy evil, you are quite mistaken. Love postpones the destruction to allow evil to show its true colors.

Not sure how you come to that conclusion, but ok. If you say so.

No, not because I say so but I don't see the quote saying what you say it does.

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If sin is the ACTIVE terminator of sinners, why is it that people do NOT go puff in smoke every time they sin? Why did not Satan? Why are they still around?

I believe grace is the answer. Why hasn't the world gone crazy yet? Because God is holding back the four winds. Once that restraint is gone people will go crazy.

Look all around you and you can see what sin leads to. Death. God doesn't force Himself onto us, so sometimes He just has to do what we want Him to do. Which is to go away.

And when grace is withheld and He goes away, then what? What are the 4 winds that are being restrained? Is sin such a person as powerful as God that it can open the earth to swallow sinners? or rain fire from the heavens?

"...our God is a consuming fire," Heb 12:29

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God will create a new heaven and a new earth where agape reigns.

That means no more love of self. In the love of self you don't care about others....If you do it's to get what you need for yourself. In other words in "iniquity" all you do "is to be seen of men". You love the best seats...to be called "the good looking one" or "the smart one" (he has a Ph.d), etc, etc....

Heaven isn't based on this me, me, me and what's in it for me. Does that mean you'll be poor in heaven? Nope, but your wealth will not be gained by your own self-interests...it will be gained because others are living solely for you and you them:

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure [i.e., own way]; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

No more lies....No more self-righteous hypocrisy...no more BS!!!! No more legalists....No more pretending....No more living for the flesh in all it's forms, because all these things have vanished.

Some day will be together....in heaven!

The true object of education should be carefully considered. God has intrusted to each one capacities and powers, that they may be returned to Him enlarged and improved. All His gifts are granted to us to be used to the utmost. He requires every one of us to cultivate our powers, and attain the highest possible capacity for usefulness, that we may do noble work for God, and bless humanity. Every talent that we possess, whether of mental capacity, money, or influence, is of God, so that we may say with David, "All things come of Thee, and of Thine own have we given Thee." {FE 82.1}

Dear youth, what is the aim and purpose of your life? Are you ambitious for education that you may have a name and position in the world? Have you thoughts that you dare not express, that you may one day stand upon the summit of intellectual greatness; that you may sit in deliberative and legislative councils, and help to enact laws for the nation? There is nothing wrong in these aspirations. You may every one of you make your mark. You should be content with no mean attainments. Aim high, and spare no pains to reach the standard.

White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Fundamentals of Christian Education, Instruction for the Home, the School, and the Church; Fundamentals of Christian Education; Christian Education; Fundamentals of Christian Education (82). Southern Publishing Association.

Brother L, you rule with a rod of iron in your family. You are severe in the government of your children. You will not gain their love by this course of management. You are not tender, loving, affectionate, and courteous to your wife; but are harsh, and bear down upon her, blaming and censuring her. A well-regulated, orderly family is a pleasing sight to God and ministering angels. You must learn how to make a home orderly, comfortable, and pleasant. Then adorn that home with becoming dignity, and the spirit will be received by the children; and order, regularity, and obedience will be more readily secured by both of you. {2T 259.1}

Testimonies for the Church, Volume 2; Testimonies, Volume 2. 1855; 2002 (259). Pacific P We shall see farmers who are not coarse and rough and slack, careless of their apparel and of the appearance of their homes; but they will bring taste into farmhouses. Rooms will be sunny and inviting. We shall not see blackened ceilings, covered with cloth full of dust and dirt. Science, genius, intelligence, will be manifest in the home.

White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (245). Pacific Press Publishing Association.ress Publishing Association.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

And when grace is withheld and He goes away, then what? What are the 4 winds that are being restrained? Is sin such a person as powerful as God that it can open the earth to swallow sinners? or rain fire from the heavens?

You will see as the plagues are poured out. It was man who really did it, not God. They are to reap what they have sown. Gods wrath will be poured out without mixture.

Read chapter 1 of The Great Controversy if you wish to understand this.

Otherwise, I do not know what to tell you anymore. You have ignored the biblical definition of Gods wrath, because it doesn't agree with your wrath.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

My sick notion of love? Agape is sick????

YOUR version of agape IS SICK!!! To wit: to love one's neighbor is to give them everything one owns' date=' no home, no pillow, nothing! No education because those are all for self!

[/quote']

In agape everything you do is for others. E.G., Jesus was educated, not with a PhD or the like, but nonetheless educated.

What did He do with His knowledge? I know what you did...what I did....We went and purchased the nicest home we could find. And I bet we have nice things in our homes. Why? Because we used our education primarily for ourselves. That's iniquity! There's no self-seeking and/or self-love in agape.

What did Jesus do? And remember Jesus came to show us the love of the Father!

Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross!

Mark 10:43 "Whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first must be slave of all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Jesus lived to serve. His education...all that He did and thought was for your benefit. Jesus did nothing for Himself. He did it all for His enemies. He was willing to give up heaven, not for 3 days, but for eternity so you could have His place. That Gerry is agape, that's the agape you hate because you don't want to admit that the love of self is the essence of all sin.

Even EGW rails against it. I've quoted this for you, but you spin off on a tangent and ignore them. Tell me, Gerry, where is self-love in the following statement?

You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth. [DA 439]

There's no self-seeking in agape, instead you become the servant of those around. You live to serve.

In heaven this principle brings wealth, but here on earth if you walk as Jesus you too will share His poverty. Why? Because if you live a truly righteous life here (one where there's no thoughts of self) you too would say, “The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.” Those who follow him must share his poverty. [RH 7-4-1912]

Rob

[Robert]

FE 82.1/White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Fundamentals of Christian Education, Instruction for the Home, the School, and the Church; Fundamentals of Christian Education; Christian Education; Fundamentals of Christian Education (82). Southern Publishing Association. {2T 259.1} Testimonies for the Church, Volume 2; Testimonies, Volume 2. 1855; 2002 (259). P White, E. G. (1923; 2002). Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (245). Pacific Press Publishing Association.ress Publishing Association.

As usual....Spin off in another direction. You are trying to legitimize sin. You call evil [self-love], good ....This is the same reason you see God as a minster of wrath.....This is why I oppose you and will continue to oppose you. You're the old guard of Adventism. You can't see the forest for the trees. Will you ever change, or must God allow you to go through Job's experience???

Rob

[Robert]

You (Gerry) have ignored the biblical definition of Gods wrath, because it doesn't agree with your wrath.

I feel sorry for folks like Gerry because God will let them go through Job's experience if they maintain their righteousness.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go...

But, after that painful experience where God was forced to step back from Job's life, Job repented:

Job 40:4 "Behold, I am vile; What shall I answer You? I lay my hand over my mouth."

When the prophet Daniel beheld the glory surrounding the heavenly messenger [EGW describes this elsewhere as God's agape] that was sent unto him, he was overwhelmed with a sense of his own weakness and imperfection. Describing the effect of the wonderful scene, he says, “There remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” Daniel 10:8. The soul thus touched will hate its selfishness, abhor its self-love, and will seek, through Christ’s righteousness, for the purity of heart that is in harmony with the law of God and the character of Christ. Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned --he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. [sC 29]

It was the same presence of divine holiness that had caused the prophet Daniel to fall as one dead before the angel of God. He said, “My comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength.” So when Isaiah beheld the glory of the Lord, he exclaimed, “Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.” Dan. 10:8; Isa. 6:5. Humanity, with its weakness and sin, was brought in contrast with the perfection of divinity, and he felt altogether deficient and unholy. Thus it has been with all who have been granted a view of God’s greatness and majesty. [DA 246]

[Robert]

Why am I bringing up Job? Several reasons.

1] Here we see how God's so called-wrath works.

2] We see how it's easy to be blinded by our own self-righteousness.

Take a look at the following:

-BC- GC11

-TI- The Great Controversy

-CN- 27

-CT- Modern Revivals

-PR- 02

-PG- 471

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6. It was when Isaiah saw the glory of the Lord, and heard the cherubim crying, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts,” that he cried out, “Woe is me! for I am undone.” Isaiah 6:3, 5. Paul, after he was caught up into the third heaven and heard things which it was not possible for a man to utter, speaks of himself as “less than the least of all saints.” 2 Corinthians 12:2-4, margin; Ephesians 3:8. It was the beloved John, who leaned on Jesus’ breast and beheld His glory, that fell as one dead before the feet of the angel. Revelation 1:17.

There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin, on the part of those who walk in the shadow of Calvary’s cross. They feel that it was their sin which caused the agony that broke the heart of the Son of God, and this thought will lead them to self-abasement. Those who live nearest to Jesus discern most clearly the frailty and sinfulness of humanity, and their only hope is in the merit of a crucified and risen Saviour.

What is Ellen White inferring?

Well, just focus on Job and watch what happens:

When Job heard the voice of the Lord out of the whirlwind, he exclaimed: “I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.” Job 42:6....There can be no self-exaltation, no boastful claim to freedom from sin..."

That was exactly Job's problem...and EGW has it in writing....Wow, I've never saw that before. Hmmm?

Rob