Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Can I ask you a question Robert?

If someone does not agree with our position, does that give us the right to judge their character and try to diminish them?

Mark :-)

Those that believe this view that God destroys, kills, murders, etc reflect it in their own lives. It is a law of human nature. Of course the self-righteous will deny it and play the "you are judging me card".

Rob

You are passing judgement my friend.

You seem to be saying that anyone that does not agree with your position, is carnal and wants to kill and destroy.

That is not the case.

Mark

[Gerr]

"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Mt 11:30.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his copmmandments are not burdensome." 1 Jn 5:3 ESV

"His orders are not irksome (burdensome, oppressive, or grievous), Amp

"Loving God means keeping his commandments, and really, that isn't difficult." NLT

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Just because love ultimately destroys sin....

Love does not have in it the seed of destruction. That is self-love, not agape. Learn the difference and then you will have light.

Jesus will destory them with the brightness of His coming...

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

This clearly talks about the destruction of the wicked when Jesus returns, that they are destroyed by His Brightness.

Sin cannot stand in the presence of love, when love fully reveals its power and glory, it destroys sin.

Love destroys sin.

It cannot do but otherwise.

Mark

[Gail]

My goodness, Rob- surely you don't mean that I reflect murder in my life? Even when I don't feel animosity against anyone but am simply willing to leave all vengeance and judgment to the Lord, as it says in His word?

[Gail]

It is the times when I spent in solitude with God that I love others the most. Without the patience He gives me I wouldn't even survive very well at all!

[Twilight]

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just. I think the reason people are afraid of God being a big, scary out-to-get-you monster is that they don't understand His loving mercy in destroying evil to protect His children. When God destroys Satan and His followers (willing followers, I might remind you), He is doing what is just and getting rid of evil forever. Same in the Old Testament; when people got so bad that God knew they would never turn back to Him, it was just to destroy them to protect His children from them and their evil influences. If God had not destroyed the Canaanites, and Sodom and Gomorrah, etc., then I imagine that terrible things would have come from them. We just have to trust that whatever God does is right and not question Him by our standards of "just" and "unjust", because God can see all time and knows exactly what to do.

Amen :-)

I take the view that I know God is loving, everything He does is motivated by love.

So when I get home, He can explain everything to me, as He will in the 1000 years.

Mark

[Twilight]

For love to be true, has to be willing to eliminate evil, otherwise it (love) must love evil also!!!

I agree. :-)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Because it has been claimed here that when the Bible states that God commanded Moses into a destructive act, that it was satan that was talking to Moses and Moses did not know the difference.

This is very dangerous as it challenges the basic inspiration of Gods word.

Any thoughts on that?

Something perhaps to this effect:

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

Read 1 Ki 22 carefully, then go back to the above that seem to contradict each other, and you will find there is no contradiction after all!!!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Those that believe this view that God destroys, kills, murders, etc reflect it in their own lives. It is a law of human nature. Of course the self-righteous will deny it and play the "you are judging me card".

Rob [/quote']

You are passing judgement my friend.

You seem to be saying that anyone that does not agree with your position, is carnal and wants to kill and destroy.

That is not the case.

Mark

That is a good example of hubris my friend.

[Robert]

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just.

1] Then why didn't He destroy Lucifer before this mess? Now instead of just Lucifer being lost you have billions more! I think I know the answer, do you?

2] If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

[Robert]

Quote:

I am happy that has worked for you. It wasn't that easy for me. Even believing in God wasn't easy for me. I was not ok with text that contradicted.

For example, what are your thoughts on these?

"Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel"(1 Chronicles 21:1)

"Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say "go, number Israel and Judah."(2 Samuel 24:1)

Perhaps you can get an insight on this by reading 1 Ki 22. Read it carefully. I think you will find there is no contradiction after all.

Tell us, Gerry! Yes?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Would you kill me if God told you to?

Would you attempt teehe to kill me if God told you?

This is strictly hypothetical.

[Robert]

The ethical dilemma is only in the mind of those who refuse to see that God's throne is founded not only on love/mercy but also on justice.

Justice? What is justice? Not sick, perverted human justice, but God's justice?

Answer: You shall reap as you sow. It's all about consequences. If you sow unbelief, you will repeat death. Who pays in death, God? Not according to my Bible:

"The wages of sin is death"

How does God allow sin to destroy? He retreats...God's act is passive for He cannot and will not engage is evil.

Rob

[Robert]

For love to be true, has to be willing to eliminate evil, otherwise it (love) must love evil also!!!

I'll ask you the same question:

If God told you to kill me would you?

Again, hypothetical so that there won't be any law suits....

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I smell a trap....I see a man who refuses light and then tries to muddy the water by going to Moses and the Old Covenant.

When it comes to the Old Covenant we need to stay clear of it. All the mayhem tied in it was never God's intent. It' date=' the law of Moses, was given to open the eyes of Israel that's there's none righteous no not one. If you wish to be "under law" then you are under the reign of the "ministry of death". (2 Cor 3:7) [/quote']

This is not a question of covenants.

This is a question of whether you think Moses was inspired or not?

Mark

No, it is very much a question of covenants. Moses was given the OC terms by God. That much is true, but failure to understand why leads one to have a wrong pic of God.....I think you are there!

Rob

[Robert]

"For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Mt 11:30.

[Robert]

My goodness, Rob- surely you don't mean that I reflect murder in my life?

No, I mean one's view of God will eventually lead him/her to do as they perceive Him doing. Look at King David...Saul before he became Paul. The disciples, all fighting and ever ready for contest ....Etc, etc....

[SivartM]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just.

1] Then why didn't He destroy Lucifer before this mess? Now instead of just Lucifer being lost you have billions more! I think I know the answer, do you?

2] If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

1. I do, but I don't think you do. God didn't destroy Lucifer because if He had, then His other created beings would have questioned Him and become afraid of Him. The whole point of the great controversy is to show that God is just in all He does.

2. Nobody can answer every question about why God does what He does. We just have to trust His wisdom. After all, I could ask what the "symbolic" tale of the lake of fire represents, but could you really say for sure other than some vague pie-in-the-sky "the wicked destroy themselves" scenario? If you read what Ellen White says about the final judgment after the millennium, the wicked will finally realize that God's judgment on them is just. I suppose we will then understand why some will burn longer.

As for the "if God told you to kill me" scenario, that is simply based on the assumption that God MIGHT tell someone to kill someone else for no particular reason. God doesn't work that way; He always has a reason for what He does.

I think that if the Old Testament people were so confused about God and Satan, it would probably be a bit more obvious in the God-inspired Scriptures, and say something like, "And the REAL God said, 'No, don't listen to that imposter! Be kind to the Amalekites and share your candy!'".

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just.

1] Then why didn't He destroy Lucifer before this mess? Now instead of just Lucifer being lost you have billions more! I think I know the answer, do you?

2] If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

[BobRyan]

Go for it Bob...Pick on me!

OK Robert -- "I pick you".

In fact -- been doing that for a while.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I have never read any of Maxwell's stuff. I will have to look into him.

I think you will like what you find there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since I "picked Robert" -- might as well remind him of this post...

In Hinduism there are three main polytheistic gods and then a few million "lesser gods". The top three are -

1. The Creator - Brahma

2. Sustainer - Vishnu

3. Destroyer. Shiva

Hindus will often "worship the creator but not the destroyer"

By contrast in Christianity - they are all one and the same God so no "Worship the Creator not the Destroyer" in Christianity since we are not polytheistic.

Food for thought.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: SivartM

God is longsuffering, and doesn't want anyone to perish, but eventually He has to destroy evil, because He is just.

1] Then why didn't He destroy Lucifer before this mess? Now instead of just Lucifer being lost you have billions more! I think I know the answer, do you?

2] If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

1. Because it was not apparent that Satan was in fact wrong to all of the angelic host.

2. Because there is a consequence to sin, a suffering, a price to pay.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

1'] Then why didn't He destroy Lucifer before this mess? Now instead of just Lucifer being lost you have billions more! I think I know the answer, do you?

2] If God destroys his fallen creation, then why not just to it painlessly much like a person puts his pet to sleep? Why the torture? I mean after all EGW has some of the lost burning for many days!

1. I do, but I don't think you do. God didn't destroy Lucifer because if He had, then His other created beings would have questioned Him and become afraid of Him. The whole point of the great controversy is to show that God is just in all He does.

2. Nobody can answer every question about why God does what He does. We just have to trust His wisdom. After all, I could ask what the "symbolic" tale of the lake of fire represents, but could you really say for sure other than some vague pie-in-the-sky "the wicked destroy themselves" scenario? If you read what Ellen White says about the final judgment after the millennium, the wicked will finally realize that God's judgment on them is just. I suppose we will then understand why some will burn longer.

As for the "if God told you to kill me" scenario, that is simply based on the assumption that God MIGHT tell someone to kill someone else for no particular reason. God doesn't work that way; He always has a reason for what He does.

I think that if the Old Testament people were so confused about God and Satan, it would probably be a bit more obvious in the God-inspired Scriptures, and say something like, "And the REAL God said, 'No, don't listen to that imposter! Be kind to the Amalekites and share your candy!'".

"And the REAL God said, 'No, don't listen to that imposter! Be kind to the Amalekites and share your candy!'".

*chuckles*

But it is an apt illustration.

Otherwise inspiration would not be inspiration.

Mark

[Robert]

Jesus will destory them with the brightness of His coming...

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming....

Read the context:

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10 and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

God sends them delusion? Really - how can a righteous God deceive? God cannot lie....It's impossible. Neither can God destroy...it is not in His nature.

If God doesn't deceive folks then neither does He kill.