Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty.

Oh boy....Come on, I've already been over this. The law of liberty is Christ [2 Corinthians 3:1-18]. The law, in and of itself, is a yoke of bondage. It cant' help...It only demands and condemns!

No law, no sin! No sin, no need of mercy! No need of mercy, no need of a Savior! No need of a Savior, no seeking after mercy!

No seeking, no finding. You have only yourself. You have only luck left and I know of no place in the plan of salvation that provides luck as a way of hope, faith or love.

"Then shall ye call upon me, and ye shall go and pray unto me, and I will hearken unto you.

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive."

Jeremiah 29:12-14 KJV

Even mercy is given only to those who sense their need. For no law, no sin, no need of confession and no sacrifice for the unconfessed.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."1 John 1:9 KJV

"And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission."Hebrews 9:22 NKJV

Regards!

[LifeHiscost]

[APL]

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

[Guest WilloMar]

God’s most precious gift is freedom of choice. If we were only programmed to serve God, like robots, we couldn’t love, or hate. There wouldn’t be a law; there wouldn’t be a Saviour, because there wouldn’t be sin, or righteousness for that matter. This is why freedom to choose is so important. Actually, there wouldn’t be God, either. But thankfully, there is and it is He who we should worship.

Prepare for Christ’s Coming!

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

teehe

Maybe I said too much' date=' I do not know. But those who demand justice do not really forgive do they? [/quote']

No, I agree with you....Just like to play with those icons.... teehe

[Robert]

No law, no sin!

No, sin was in the world before the law was given. The giving of the law didn't make matters better, it made matters worse. Now you knew you were a sinner under the curse.

Romans 5:2 Therefore, just as sin entered the world [i.e., the human race] through one man [Adam], and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, [why?] because all sinned [in Adam]-- 13 for before the law was given, sin was in the world [the human race]. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law [in other words legally speaking you aren't guilty until you realize you are a sinner]. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses [where the law was posted].

Did you get that? Sin was in the human race [the world] before the posting of the law on Mt. Sinai. Folks were dying even thought they didn't know the law. Why? They stood condemned in Adam!!!! Why? Because they shared his fallen life. Since they shared Adam's life, after the fall, they stood condemned (not guilty). One is not guilty of Adam's sin (that the heresy of "original sin"). Again, one stand condemned because he/she shares Adam's fallen life indwelt with sin.

So what was putting them (those before the law) in the grave? Sin! That's the first death.

[Robert]

"Adam sinned [at the fall], and the children of Adam [you and I] share his guilt and its consequences; but Jesus bore the guilt of Adam, and all the children of Adam that will flee to Christ, the second Adam, may escape the penalty of transgression the 2nd death]." [FW 88]

Now Ellen White unknowingly taught "original sin" because she said we are "guilty" of Adam's sin, but I'm sure she meant "condemned"!?!

Let me explain:

Let's say I'm in a car and the driver takes a curve too fast. He crashes and he and I die.

1] Who sinned?

2] Who was condemned?

The man was going too fast for the curve...he wasn't following the posted speed limit therefore he disobeyed a known law. He transgressed. He knew the law, but ignored it and died.

On the other hand I didn't sin, but I was implicated in his sin. Because of his sin I was condemned to death.

So he was guilty and I was condemned.

So Adam sinned (he broke a known command) and because God created the human race in Adam when he transgressed our humanity that was "in him" became condemned. How? It became fallen and mortal.

Let's use another example:

Let's say I pour arsenic in the mouth of a river. All the folks living on the river die from drinking the water.

Who sinned?

I did....I poisoned the river.

Who was condemned because of my sin?

All the folks on the river because my sin affected them.

So, sin was in the world before the law was posted, yet folks were dying. Why? Were they guilty of Adam's sin? No, but because they shared his fallen, sinful life they stood condemned.

Rob

[Twilight]

Quote:

I have a feeling people want their enemies to be punished.

This is where you have to be very careful my friend.

Just because someone does not agree with you, does not mean they want all of their enemies destroyed.

That has been presented on here again and again.

You should not assume anyones motive, as you cannot read their hearts.

God bless,

Mark

Your demand for justice says otherwise. You give a very human version and claim it is Gods way.

One of the greatest arguments against false doctrine is the spirit it is presented in.

When one group starts to make judgements about the motives of the other, we can know they do not have the Spirit of Christ guiding them, but indeed the spirit of satan.

Like I said, my friend, be very careful with your judgements.

Yourself and Robert have presented this topic with at times, less then loving statements, if this teaching is so precious to you it should carry through into the way you speak and teach it.

You should never ever judge the motives of anothers heart.

It is deeply offensive to suggest that because I do not agree with you, that I want to destroy others, that I am carnal and not led by the Spirit of Christ.

Be very very careful is my counsel in love, because to judge the heart of another is a sin.

You need to seek repentance on this.

Mark

[Twilight]

I have pondered this and here are the reasons why I cannot accept this teaching:

1. The argument rests on one definition of what "agape" love is (pacifism).

2. The fourth commandment can be translated "thou shall not murder", so the idea that God does not destroy is founded on one strict rendering of a Hebrew word that is not necessarily the word "kill".

3. I have to throw out the inspiration of Moses, and therefore the bible, because to accept this teaching means that I have to accept that Moses did not know when He was talking to God and when He was talking to Satan, that Satan did indeed command him pretending he was God and God permitted Moses and the rest of Christianity to be decieved by this.

Let us bare in mind that Moses spoke to Jesus face to face, not like the other prophets, so for Him to be decieved on this point removes the whole validity of inspiration of the first five books of the bible.

Moses knew who he was talking to, yet when the position is presented here that it was in fact satan and not God directing Moses (when Moses clearly identifies it as God directing him), I have to step away from that thought. Why?

Sola Scriptura.

The moment we start to deny the inspiration of the prophets, then we have stepped away from the only safety net we have.

4. A similar point is the clear position that Ellen White stated, she was shown where for example the Angel that released Peter from Prison, also condemned Herod to death and it was the Angel's touch (possibly Gabriel), that was the result of death.

Then we have the incident when the Ark of the covenant was steadied and the offender was struck down, again Ellen White clearly states that Angels of God, struck him down.

We also have the clear statement that God does indeed use war as a judgement, from Ellen White.

So to accept this teaching as it is presented here, also means rejecting Ellen White as a prophet.

So I have now to give up the SOP to receive this truth?

5. Abraham was a type, he had to take his sons life, a type of what? The cross, The Father had to permit His Son to be killed, it is shown in the type or shadow as the Father actually taking the life of His Son.

6. We see that Jesus destroys with the brightness of His coming, that God is a consuming fire, His very presence when fully released destroy sin and everything attached to sin.

7. The idea that God does not destroy then also means that God does not destroy sin, but it destroys itself, then if if destroys itself, why was it such a danger, why did it need Jesus to destroy it in Himself on the cross.

The idea that God does not destroy, also means that God does NOT have the right to destroy sin, that it would be sinful for God to destroy.

8. The most disturbing aspect of this teaching though, is that it calls God a sinner.

If God does not fit the exact "representation" of His character that is being presented here, then God is labelled as a breaker of His own Law.

That God is evil because He destroys.

I would not personally wish to rush into judgement on God on this point, when clearly there are many things wrong with this teaching.

9. Nowhere in the bible does it state the idea that God is a pacifist, it states that He is love in essence, but He is also a God of judgement, that love and judgement are not contraty to one another.

10. The idea that it is evil for love to destroy sin, is in my mind probably one of the charges that Satan has made against God in the Great Controversy and was probably one of the arguments he used as protection.

11. The very spirit that this "teaching" has been presented in at times, intimating that I merely want to destroy my enemies and therefore am misrepresenting God, is a judgement of the heart, therefore the bearers of the message are not led by the Spirit continuosly, which makes me very wary.

So in summary.

Because I have to reject the inspiration of Moses and Ellen White to accept this teaching, and have to have a very narrow definition of the character of God, (after all the proponents of this theory are stating they have a full comprehension of His Character - I would not dare as to be so bold), then I reject this on biblical grounds.

There are many things in the bible that I do not understand, but I know that my God is love and all will be revealed when He gets me home.

So I will not allow my mind to go any further than inspiration clearly shows, it is my safety net and I will not surrender it.

This is what I have been asked to do here, to accept this teaching, let us be plain about that.

As these issues above have not been dealt with, I advise all to be extremely cautious when studying this teaching and consider these points and others that have been made, as it is dangerous to take one idea and try to make the bible and Gods Character fit it.

God bless,

Mark

[Robert]

One of the greatest arguments against false doctrine is the spirit it is presented in.

When one group starts to make judgements about the motives of the other, we can know they do not have the Spirit of Christ guiding them, but indeed the spirit of satan.

[Robert]

I reject this on biblical grounds.

You mean your traditional view? You mean your limited view of the Bible. You only take those verses that please your carnal side and ignore the rest.

If Christ is your example and Christ wasn't a pacifist then you should follow his example. If it is sometimes okay to kill and destroy then by all means you should build on this. Your friends should be accounted thus and your enemies, well, they must die.

I suggest you go all the way with your theology and put it into practice, but don't worry I'll come visit you in jail after you've committed some sort of atrocity. teehe

[Robert]

Sola Scriptura....

[LifeHiscost]

Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. {GC 542.2}

Yep! And that still is not enough to stop the wonderment by those who view the scars in Jesus' hands in the kingdom to come.

"And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends."

Zechariah 13:6 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Gerry - you are correct, that some versions get it wrong!

BTW, how do we know who has the correct translation?

[Woody]

The ones that agree with me are correct.

[Gerr]

[

Quote:

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

It would be cruel and unusual punishment if the lost would burn in hell forever ad infinitum. God is not only love but He is also Judge. Justice is also part of His nature just as much as love! As I said before, love without law/boundaries is anarchy! And law without love is tyranny! I believe that the lost are not so much being judged for what they have done to themselves for not choosing God, IT IS THE EVIL THAT THEY HAVE DONE TO OTHERS THAT CRIES OUT FOR JUSTICE! If righteous indignation does not well up in your heart against a child molester that goes on to murder his victim besides, then IMHO, you have no heart at all!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

One of the greatest arguments against false doctrine is the spirit it is presented in.

When one group starts to make judgements about the motives of the other, we can know they do not have the Spirit of Christ guiding them, but indeed the spirit of satan.

Like I said, my friend, be very careful with your judgements.

Yourself and Robert have presented this topic with at times, less then loving statements, if this teaching is so precious to you it should carry through into the way you speak and teach it.

You should never ever judge the motives of anothers heart.

It is deeply offensive to suggest that because I do not agree with you, that I want to destroy others, that I am carnal and not led by the Spirit of Christ.

Be very very careful is my counsel in love, because to judge the heart of another is a sin.

You need to seek repentance on this.

Mark

Those who seek justice have a vengeful heart. I do not judge you friend. Your words are what judge you. Trust me, I know all about it. Before I came to this message I hated God and thought He was a psycho if He was even there. I was on the path to destruction and wanted to hurt anyone who got in my way. When I would get cut off, I would follow them because I wanted to smash their face in. That is human justice... Thankfully God pulled me out of that, and I have come a long ways, and have a long ways to go.

I hear too many times, "there has to be justice for sin!" Honestly, I wish there wasn't. But I know, people will judge themselves, and cause their own destruction.

[Twilight]

Quote:

One of the greatest arguments against false doctrine is the spirit it is presented in.

When one group starts to make judgements about the motives of the other, we can know they do not have the Spirit of Christ guiding them, but indeed the spirit of satan.

Like I said, my friend, be very careful with your judgements.

Yourself and Robert have presented this topic with at times, less then loving statements, if this teaching is so precious to you it should carry through into the way you speak and teach it.

You should never ever judge the motives of anothers heart.

It is deeply offensive to suggest that because I do not agree with you, that I want to destroy others, that I am carnal and not led by the Spirit of Christ.

Be very very careful is my counsel in love, because to judge the heart of another is a sin.

You need to seek repentance on this.

Mark

Those who seek justice have a vengeful heart. I do not judge you friend. Your words are what judge you. Trust me, I know all about it. Before I came to this message I hated God and thought He was a psycho if He was even there. I was on the path to destruction and wanted to hurt anyone who got in my way. When I would get cut off, I would follow them because I wanted to smash their face in. That is human justice... Thankfully God pulled me out of that, and I have come a long ways, and have a long ways to go.

I hear too many times, "there has to be justice for sin!" Honestly, I wish there wasn't. But I know, people will judge themselves, and cause their own destruction.

There is no anger or vengeance in my heart on this issue, it is a journey I myself had to take when people do not agree with me.

We have to be sanctified on this point.

It is intendeds as a gently loving rebuke to point you higher.

God bless,

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

There is no anger or vengeance in my heart on this issue, it is a journey I myself had to take when people do not agree with me.

We have to be sanctified on this point.

It is intendeds as a gently loving rebuke to point you higher.

God bless,

Mark

I know friend. I fail many times on this issue. I talk with Jesus about it all the time. So I am still taking that journey. It just seems like those who want justice are not truly forgiving. If someone steals from me, do I call the cops and demand justice? Or do what Jesus said forgive and give them my other coat. I bet that would strike their heart. "Wait! Jesus wants me to give you this as well."

Anyways friend, I'm sorry if I offended. I'm likely to do that still. It is something I struggle with. As far as this teaching, lets just agree to disagree.

Wish you well.

[Twilight]

Quote:

There is no anger or vengeance in my heart on this issue, it is a journey I myself had to take when people do not agree with me.

We have to be sanctified on this point.

It is intendeds as a gently loving rebuke to point you higher.

God bless,

Mark

I know friend. I fail many times on this issue. I talk with Jesus about it all the time. So I am still taking that journey. It just seems like those who want justice are not truly forgiving. If someone steals from me, do I call the cops and demand justice? Or do what Jesus said forgive and give them my other coat. I bet that would strike their heart. "Wait! Jesus wants me to give you this as well."

Anyways friend, I'm sorry if I offended. I'm likely to do that still. It is something I struggle with. As far as this teaching, lets just agree to disagree.

Wish you well.

Thank you Lutz, it is appreciated :-)

Victory over these character flaws is something that is attainable.

Our victory is in the sanctuary :-)

We can agree to disagree on this subject, but I would like to offer my friendship to yourself, as I am sure there are other areas where we can have fruitful and profitable discussion.

God bless,

Mark

[Woody]

Quote:

Victory over these character flaws is something that is attainable.

I would note that there is a difference between saying that something is 'attainable' and saying that God's saints WILL attain.

[APL]

I have pondered this and here are the reasons why I cannot accept this teaching:

Point 1:

Zechariah 4:6 ESV Then he said to me, "This is the word of the LORD to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the LORD of hosts.

Point 2:

Only God is mortal. Does God then have to execute sinners? 1Ti 6:16

Point 3:

Numbers 21:6-7 ESV Then the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. (7) And the people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD and against you. Pray to the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people.

Was Moses right in writing that the LORD sent the fiery serpents?

Deuteronomy 8:14-15 ESV (14) then your heart be lifted up, and you forget the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery, (15) who led you through the great and terrifying wilderness, with its fiery serpents and scorpions and thirsty ground where there was no water, who brought you water out of the flinty rock,

Deuteronomy 8:19 ESV And if you forget the LORD your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I solemnly warn you today that you shall surely perish.

The poisonous serpents that infested the wilderness were called fiery serpents, on account of the terrible effects produced by their sting, it causing violent inflammation and speedy death. As the protecting hand of God was removed from Israel, great numbers of the people were attacked by these venomous creatures. {PP 429.1}

God is charged with causing, that what he allows.

Point 4:

Often what God allows, God is charged with causing.

Point 5:

Did God kill Jesus? Is that what you are saying???

Isaiah 53:4 ESV Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted.

We thought it was God striking him, it was not true, but we thought it!

Point 6:

Isaiah 33:14-15 ESV The sinners in Zion are afraid; trembling has seized the godless: "Who among us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who among us can dwell with everlasting burnings?" (15) He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly, who despises the gain of oppressions, who shakes his hands, lest they hold a bribe, who stops his ears from hearing of bloodshed and shuts his eyes from looking on evil,

What is the difference? Why do some live in the fire and some do not?

Point 7:

I don't follow your logic. God is destroying sin! But not by might and power, but by his spirit.

Point 8:

Only in your mind is God a sinner by twisting the ideas presented here because I have not seen those who have presented these ideas calling God a sinner. It is true, we are judging God. Romans 3:4 GSNT By no means! God must prove true, though every man be false; as the Scripture says, "That you may be shown to be upright in what you say, And win your case when you go into court."

Point 9:

Pacifist - Hebrews 1:3 ESV He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Point 10:

You twist the ideas again. Love is destroying sin. Romans 12:20 ESV To the contrary, "if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for by so doing you will heap burning coals on his head."

Point 11:

I detect caustic comments on all sides. I'm new here, and while I don't agree with all that has been presented in these nearly 200 pages of text on both sides, I do believe that the last message of mercy to the world, is God's character of Love. God destroys no man, but men destroy themselves. EGW points out that God has been accused of being arbitrary, exacting, vengeful, unforgiving and severe. (ST Jan 20, 1890) What I find interesting is that both sides have the same conclusion, the wicked are destroyed, sin is no more. One side has God actively killing the sinner (a mortal being) because it is the "just" thing to do. The other has God sadly, giving them up, letting them go, and they die and their death is awful to be sure. Both sides claim the other is distorting scripture, denying the "plain" words of scripture. I do know of one time that the scriptures were very plain! John 16:25-27 GNB "I have used figures of speech to tell you these things. But the time will come when I will not use figures of speech, but will speak to you plainly about the Father. (26) When that day comes, you will ask him in my name; and I do not say that I will ask him on your behalf, (27) for the Father himself loves you.

[Woody]

Quote:

It is intendeds as a gently loving rebuke to point you higher.

Oh I hope that members here don't feel they have to rebuke each other. We have enough of that going on by accident. For sure we don't need purposeful rebukes.

[Twilight]

Quote:

Victory over these character flaws is something that is attainable.

I would note that there is a difference between saying that something is 'attainable' and saying that God's saints WILL attain.

Why make such an emphasis?

Gods people can attain and indeed, must attain victory over sin, through the merits of Christ.

But that is off topic.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

It is intendeds as a gently loving rebuke to point you higher.

Oh I hope that members here don't feel they have to rebuke each other. We have enough of that going on by accident. For sure we don't need purposeful rebukes.

It would seem that Jesus and Paul counselled us to rebuke and admonish lovingly.

Were they wrong?

Again, this comment is off topic. :-)

Mark