Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[APL]

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

This is very clear,

Rob

[LifeHiscost]

I believe God had me look into His character and find out who He really is.

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"John 14:9 KJV

"I and my Father are one."John 10:30 KJV

"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."John 20:29 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Who is on trial?

Rom 3:4 By no means! God must prove true, though every man be false; as the Scripture says, "That you may be shown to be upright in what you say, And win your case when you go into court."

And just WHO is judging God? In what/whose court is He being tried? Who will punish Him if He lost?

2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

Rev 20:11-12 "Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books."

Quote:

God is Love. period - full stop.

Love without justice is blind, a misguided emotion which is no love at all.

[LifeHiscost]

Not sure I'll ever stop. Hope and pray not anyway.

"...being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform."Romans 4:21 NASB

"And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE,

and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'?

"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." "

Matthew 19:4-6 NASB Emphasis theirs LHC

""Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven."Matthew 18:19 NIV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

This is very clear,

Rob

1) Sin destroys sinners.

Agreed! But how? Does sin open up the earth to swallow sinners like Achan? If so, how come we don't see people who have committed far more serious sins than Achan swallowed up? Does sin open up the skies to rain down fire and brimstone to destroy Sodom And Gomorrah? If so, how come SF, or Detroit, or NYC, Tijuana, or some other den of iniquity city not all burned up yet?

Quote:

2) I'm not sure God ever abandons sinners. Sinners abandon God and he turns his face and hides his crying from them.

Quote:

Hos 11:7 For My people are determined to desert Me. They call Me the Most High, but they don't truly honor Me. Hos 11:8 "Oh, how can I give you up, Israel? How can I let you go?

Did He not in fact let Ephraim go? And Israel? And Dan?

I believe God holds individual freedom as sacrosanct. His Son died to preserve it. One is really not free unless it is allowed to go its own way or even say, "NO".

[LifeHiscost]

I would rather repent out of love, than of fear.

Our Father will use fear as a means to motivate toward Himself. However fear will not keep us there.

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love."1 John 4:18 NKJV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Sinners abandon God and he turns his face and hides his crying from them.

Quote:

Hos 11:7 For My people are determined to desert Me. They call Me the Most High, but they don't truly honor Me. Hos 11:8 "Oh, how can I give you up, Israel? How can I let you go?

""O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. " Matt 23:37,38 NIV

"Now as He drew near, He saw the city and wept over it" Luke 19:41 NIV

Blessings!

[LifeHiscost]

Something just doesn't add up...

Could it be our understanding?

[APL]

Quote:

Who is on trial?

Rom 3:4 By no means! God must prove true, though every man be false; as the Scripture says, "That you may be shown to be upright in what you say, And win your case when you go into court."

And just WHO is judging God? In what/whose court is He being tried? Who will punish Him if He lost?

[APL]

Love without justice is blind, a misguided emotion which is no love at all.

[Robert]

I'm not sure God ever abandons sinners. Sinners abandon God and he turns his face and hides his crying from them.

Sure....He retreats when He is persistently rejected and unwanted. Matt 23:37-38 is a good example:

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

[Robert]

Does sin open up the earth to swallow sinners like....

"Then it came to pass, as he finished speaking all these words, that the ground split apart under them. And the earth opened its mouth and swallowed them up, with their households and all the men with Korah, with all their goods. So they and all those with them went down alive into the pit; the earth closed over them, and they perished from among the congregation. . . . And a fire came out from the Lord and consumed the two hundred and fifty men who were offering incense" (Numbers 16:28-35).

Traditionally, we have taken this episode at face value. They rebelled. God, to maintain order and confirm the leadership of Moses and Aaron, split open the earth and destroyed the rebels. Then He finished off the two hundred fifty with fire.

By now we know that in the invisible world, events may have occurred not described here. If God released an earthquake all primed to happen beneath their feet at that exact moment, He could certainly have communicated that fact to Moses. Fire often accompanies earthquakes, as at Pompei, San Francisco, etc. Nothing in the description precludes our alternate view. But do we have any other Scriptural support in this matter?

Regarding the exodus, the apostle Paul counsels, "Do not become idolaters as were some of them. . . . Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell; nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents; nor murmur, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the [definite article] destroyer" (1 Corinthians 10:7-10).

The apostle does not intend to leave anyone out. In indexing the deaths on that long journey toward the Promised Land, they all fit in here somewhere. Note. . .

"Do not become idolaters as were some of them (See Exodus 32). . . . Nor let us commit sexual immorality, as some of them did, and in one day twenty-three thousand fell (See Numbers 25:1-9); nor let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed by serpents (See Numbers 21:6-9); nor murmur, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed by the destroyer."

And we know who he is.

The last entry of complainers, destroyed by the destroyer, includes the quail eaters (See Exodus 16, Numbers 11), the Kadesh-Barnea rebels (See Numbers 13, 14; Deuteronomy 1:19-46; 2:14-16); and Korah, Dathan and Abiram (See Numbers 16, 17).

[MM Campbell, "Light on the Dark Side of God"]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

Who is on trial?

Rom 3:4 By no means! God must prove true, though every man be false; as the Scripture says, "That you may be shown to be upright in what you say, And win your case when you go into court."

And just WHO is judging God? In what/whose court is He being tried? Who will punish Him if He lost?

The universe and us with them, is judging God.

Originally Posted By: Desire of Ages

In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. {DA 58.1}

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

2 Cor 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

Jesus said he will not judge.

Quote:

Joh 12:47 If people hear my message and do not obey it, I will not judge them. I came, not to judge the world, but to save it.

Joh 12:48 Those who reject me and do not accept my message have one who will judge them. The words I have spoken will be their judge on the last day!

But if Jesus did judge, his judgement would be true, but he does not.

Quote:

Joh 8:15 You make judgments in a purely human way; I pass judgment on no one.

Joh 8:16 But if I were to do so, my judgment would be true, because I am not alone in this; the Father who sent me is with me.

Quote:

Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.

Joh 3:18 Those who believe in the Son are not judged; but those who do not believe have already been judged, because they have not believed in God's only Son.

Joh 3:19 This is how the judgment works: the light has come into the world, but people love the darkness rather than the light, because their deeds are evil.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Rev 20:11-12 "Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books."

Quote:

Rev 14:7 He cried in a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, for the hour for his judgment has come. Worship him who made heaven and earth and sea and the springs of water."

The our of His judgment - the hour when he is judged!

Quote:

God is Love. period - full stop.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Love without justice is blind, a misguided emotion which is no love at all.

This is a perversion of the truth and is a one of the lies of Satan. God is Love.

Originally Posted By: Desire of Ages

Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice.

Quote:

1 John 4:8 GNB Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love.

In the Great Controversy of God's character and government, God is the one on trial. How we judge Him, will determine our destiny.

Sounds like Dr. Maxwell? Well, if God is being tried, He is being tried only in the court of public opinion. Who was on trial when OJ Simpson was being tried for murder? Was it Judge Ito or Simpson? Yes, in a manner of speaking Judge Ito was on trial but only in the public's opinion, whether he conducted the court proceedings properly and fairly. The fact remains, O.J SIMPSON WAS ON TRIAL. We are all O.J. Simpsons. Who are you o sinful man to presume to judge God? Who committed a crime? Was it God? Are you guiltless/sinless that you should escape being tried? The trial will show who REALLY have made the Lamb their substitute and whose claim to be his Lord is only a sham. The former will not be judged/condemned. The deeds of the latter will condemn them as shown by their unbelief in the books of record. Yes, indeed the court proceedings will show that God is entirely fair in His dealings and judgment of sin and sinners.

"How we judge Him, will determine our destiny."

Is that how we are saved? If I say, "God you're right. You are just," I'm in?

"And the Ancient of Days took his seat......the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened." Dan 7:9,10

[APL]

"How we judge Him, will determine our destiny."

Is that how we are saved? If I say, "God you're right. You are just," I'm in?

"And the Ancient of Days took his seat......the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened." Dan 7:9,10

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Yes! You get it. We are saved through faith (trust). And this salvation is a free gift! (Eph 2:8). We only develop faith/trust in someone we judge to be trustworthy. If you do not trust God, you do not have faith in him, you will will not be saved. You will be fearful of God.

From what I understand at this moment. We have the choice if we want heaven or not. All will be revealed, and "they shall throw you down into the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain in the midst of the seas"(Ezekiel 28:8) Even after everything is revealed, they still do not change. Their destructive characters will bring them to their own doom. That is why it is so important to have the same character as our God.

"The last message of mercy to be given to the world is a revelation of His character of love. The children of God are to manifest His glory. In their own life and character they are to reveal what the grace of God has done for them."--COL 415, 416 (1900). {LDE 200.4}

I believe this is the message. I thought I was one of the few that believed this until I posted here! I learned even more. This teaching is spreading throughout the SDA church. It is going much faster than I thought it would. Notice what she says, it is a revelation of His character of love. Something is being revealed about His character. For so long everyone has looked at Him as a killer. Somehow beyond my understanding many tried to justify it. I have a feeling people want their enemies to be punished.

[Guest WilloMar]

Well said, Lutz13. There was a post a little while ago that talked about a rattle snake in the bedroom where his children were sleeping. To save his children he would have to kill it. This was a comparison to God and how He would have to kill sinners to save His children. In other words, he must kill the sinner (symbolized by the rattle snake) to save his children. This was his belief because that’s the way his god would handle it. “O ye of little faith,” don’t you know that God protects His children when we do His will. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to worship the Creator in love? For, “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” 1 John 4:18.

Jesus is coming very soon, let’s be ready!

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: APL

In the Great Controversy of God's character and government, God is the one on trial. How we judge Him, will determine our destiny.

"How we judge Him, will determine our destiny."

Is that how we are saved? If I say, "God you're right. You are just," I'm in?

"And the Ancient of Days took his seat......the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened." Dan 7:9,10

At a certain particular time the underlined above does seem to have some validity. Although, in the final history of the wicked, what the wicked confess is too late for justification.

"His master said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful slave. You were faithful with a few things, I will put you in charge of many things; enter into the joy of your master.'"

"And the one also who had received the one talent came up and said, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you scattered no seed.

'And I was afraid, and went away and hid your talent in the ground. See, you have what is yours.'

"But his master answered and said to him, 'You wicked, lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow and gather where I scattered no seed.

'Then you ought to have put my money in the bank, and on my arrival I would have received my money back with interest.

'Therefore take away the talent from him, and give it to the one who has the ten talents.'

"For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away.

"Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 25:23-28 NASB underlined mine LHC

"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’"Matthew 7:23 NKJV And that's New Covenant

"For it is written: “ As I live, says the LORD,Every knee shall bow to Me,And every tongue shall confess to God.”"Romans 14:11 NKJV

Regards!

[APL]

How we view God, makes all the difference. If we view God as a harsh creditor, we will be afraid of him. The man with the one talent "knew" his master was a hard man. He was afraid of him. He was wrong. If we make God out to be someone to be afraid of, because he is going to kill you if you don't love him, how can we put our trust (faith) in him? This is eternal life, that we know God and Jesus Christ who he sent. John 17:3.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

How we view God, makes all the difference. If we view God as a harsh creditor, we will be afraid of him. The man with the one talent "knew" his master was a hard man. He was afraid of him. He was wrong. If we make God out to be someone to be afraid of, because he is going to kill you if you don't love him, how can we put our trust (faith) in him? This is eternal life, that we know God and Jesus Christ who he sent. John 17:3.

Amen, very true indeed! I always viewed God as a grouch, and always mad. That was my view of Him growing up! I think a lot of it had to do with the movies I watched concerning the bible. The Ten Commandments, The Greatest Story Ever Told...And lots of Jesus movies. All of them totally misrepresented Him. I think the only movie to show a glimpse of what He was really like is The Gospel of John. It shows Him as a very loving person.

Through this message I am no longer afraid to come to Him with all of my problems, and I tell Him everything now! I still have a ways to go for sure though. But wow it is nice to not have that fear there anymore!

[Robert]

Here's more from MM Campbell, who BTW, is a SDA:

Ethical Problems

Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

How can a God who kills command His people not to kill¾and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity.

The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words: "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . .

"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts."[1] Those who believe hell eventually burns out still have the problem that an all-wise God, who is more loving than any human, could think of no better way to dispose of sin than to burn sinners, even though they are His children still the creation of His own hand. If burning humans alive is inherently evil, then would it not be as evil an act for God as it would be for humans? And God, as Christianity wishes to present Him, is not evil. Yet, evil is evil because it is evil. God's alleged participation in it does not sanctify it. The idea of hell fire, to many, constitutes another puzzling piece in Christianity's picture of God.

[Lutz13]

Well said, Lutz13. There was a post a little while ago that talked about a rattle snake in the bedroom where his children were sleeping. To save his children he would have to kill it. This was a comparison to God and how He would have to kill sinners to save His children. In other words, he must kill the sinner (symbolized by the rattle snake) to save his children. This was his belief because that’s the way his god would handle it. “O ye of little faith,” don’t you know that God protects His children when we do His will. Wouldn’t it be more beneficial to worship the Creator in love? For, “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.” 1 John 4:18.

Jesus is coming very soon, let’s be ready!

Life would be miserable if we worshiped out of fear, and not worth living.

[Robert]

This is a bit long, but...

WHO TORCHED SODOM AND GOMORRAH?

"Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of" (Luke.9:55, KJV).

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. So He overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground. But his [Lot's] wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt" (Genesis 19:24-26).

Enough has been said by now that students of this topic could draw their own conclusions as to the way in which God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. However, some specific Biblical evidence exists regarding those cities, which supports our present thesis.

Until recently no information existed outside Scripture regarding the five Cities of the Plain involved in the story we call "Sodom and Gomorrah." For this reason most scholars questioned the story's authenticity, attributing it to Middle Eastern folklore. Those few who thought it might have some historical basis expected to find archeological evidence of this beneath the shallow southern end of the Dead Sea, basing their belief on the Scriptural description of the area as "the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Salt Sea)" (Genesis 14:3). Israelis call the Dead Sea Yam Hamaelach, Salt Sea, to this day.

In the late 1970s however, the lowering of the Dead Sea's water level allowed excavation extensive enough to shatter this hope, since no trace of these or any cities could be found.

Meantime, some interesting things were happening in the area immediately east of the southern end of the Dead Sea. As early as 1924 the noted scholar, William Foxwell Albright, and M. G. Kyle, president of Xenia Theological Seminary, excavated an elaborate place of worship there, which they termed Bab edh-Dhra. The site received little attention until 1973, when other archaeologists discovered in the same area ruins of an ancient city, which they called Numeira. Interestingly, Numeira showed clear surface evidence of having been burned.

Although work continues, archaeologists now state that this area contains the ruins of exactly five cities, no more, no less, and that several display "spongy char," the residue of burning, so profusely one may scoop it up with the hand.

Sodom and Gomorrah Found?

Scripture describes the cities' location on the plain of Jordan as "well watered . . . like the Garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt as you go toward Zoar" (Genesis 13:10). You will remember that God spared the small city of Zoar at Lot's request that he be given asylum there.

Seeing this area today, one can scarcely believe it was ever so productive. Now a virtual wasteland, it fights the indigenous people who seek to wrest a livelihood from it. The writer of Genesis suggests that even in his time the land had changed dramatically, for in portraying the former productivity of this area, he says this was "before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah" (Genesis 13:10). That terrible event apparently changed the character of the land down to our own time.

In contrast with the barrenness surrounding these sites, the countless streams feeding into the southeastern Dead Sea make the shoreline still very fertile, hinting that the rest of the land could have been equally productive at some time in the ancient past.

In 1980 the prestigious journal Biblical Archeology Review reported that Walter E. Rast of Valparaiso University, Valparaiso, Indiana, and R. Thomas Schaub of Indiana University of Pennsylvania, who were then excavating these five ruins, believed they had found the ancient Cities of the Plain. ("Have Sodom and Gomorrah Been Found," September/October, pp. 27-36; 300 Connecticut Avenue NW, Suite 300, Washington, D.C. 20008).

Scripture further describes this area anciently: "Now the Valley of Siddim was full of asphalt ['bitumen,' RSV] pits" (Genesis 14:10), suggesting some type of igneous activity occurring within the earth's crust. Today "the shores around the Dead Sea are covered with lava, sulfur, and rock salt. Gases escape from the surface of the water" (World Book Encyclopedia, 1954, Vol. 4, p. 1891). Note the existence in this scenario of all the ingredients necessary to destroy these cities in a great fiery conflagration. Bitumen, asphalt, oil, gas¾even salt to turn Lot's wife into a pillar. Another name for "brimstone," which Scripture says God "rained" upon these cities is sulfur, a major export of this region today. One need only consider the swiftness with which the ancient city of Pompeii met its doom via volcano to know something similar could have happened to these cities in such a volatile location.

The Dead Sea, in fact, lies in the northernmost extremity of The Great Rift, earth's longest valley, stretching from Syria in the north to Mozambique in the South. According to geologists, this interesting formation resulted from ground movement along a major fault line at some time anciently. Encyclopedia Americana, p. 351, says, "Outpourings of lava formed volcanic plateaus at places along the sides, as well as volcanoes in and near the valley" ("Great Rift Valley." Danbury, Connecticut: Grolier, 1983).

The devastation of Sodom and Gomorrah created a legend for centuries. Like Shiloh, the fate of those cities became an object lesson to Israel.

How God Destroyed the Cities

"Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

"The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment, with no hand to help her!" (Lamentations 4:6. See also Isaiah 1:9,10; Matthew 10:12-15; 11:23,24: Romans 9:29.)

Most revealing, however, is a familiar reference often quoted to depict the pain God feels at the death of sinners.

How can I give you up Ephraim?

How can I hand you over, Israel?

How can I make you like Admah?

How can I set you like Zeboiim?

My heart churns within Me.

My sympathy is stirred.

(Hosea 11:8)

God uses the name Ephraim as a generic term in the same way He sometimes uses the name Judah, to denote an entire population.

No writer could more poignantly portray God's distress at the thought of "handing over" or "giving up" the nation to destruction, as He would one day deliver up the Sin-bearer to redeem a lost race. He compares such a prospect to the time He gave up and handed over Admah and Zeboiim.

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God poured fire upon the Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

The depravity of these cities has become legendary, even down to our time. One city, Sodom, has lent its name to a practice clearly abhorrent to God, as evidenced by a number of Scriptural passages, among them Romans 2. The context shows that the apostle Paul understood "the wrath of God" to mean His reluctant departure from those whose ways show loyalty to the kingdom of darkness. Paul in Romans 2 speaks of those whom God gave up "to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due. . . ." and "God gave them over" to the natural and inevitable consequences of their behavior. Paul's remarks in Romans 2 address a problem dating "from the creation of the world," clearly including the era of the Cities of the Plain.[1]

Nor does this exhaust the Biblical evidence that God released these cities to destruction rather than personally executing that destruction. Deuteronomy 29:23-28 strongly supports the "Release" position.

The coming generation of your children who rise up after you and the foreigner who comes from a far land would say, when they see the plagues of that land and the sickness which the Lord has laid on it:"'The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim, which the Lord overthrew in His anger and His wrath."

Then men would say: "Because they have forsaken the covenant of the Lord God of their fathers, which He made with them when He brought them out of the land of Egypt; for they went and served other gods and worshiped them, gods that they did not know and that He had not given to them.

"Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against this land, to bring on it every curse that is written in this book. And the Lord uprooted them from their land in anger, in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day."

Here the prophet draws upon the past to predict the future. At the time God communicated this to Israel through Moses, Sodom and Gomorrah were an ancient legend, at least 400 years old. God wanted Israel to understand what would be the fate of the nation should she, like those cities, choose to separate from God through sin. It is a fact of history that the nation did apostatize. After many centuries characterized by a cycle of apostasy, subjugation to surrounding nations, repentance, restoration, she eventually succumbed to the army of King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, who in 586 B. C. razed both the city of Jerusalem and the magnificent temple of Solomon within the city, killed or captured the people and transported many to Babylon.

But our text says there was to be something similar in the way God destroyed the Israelite nation and the way in which He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. It says people will be struck by that similarity, implying more than mere visual likeness. The connotation is: Israel, be loyal to the covenant of God or you will suffer the same fate as Sodom and Gomorrah. Did He mean He would rain fire down from heaven upon them?

Israel was not loyal to God. She experienced all the adversity from which God tried to warn her. Since her fate corresponded with that of the Cities of the Plain, if we can discover God's role in the punishment of Israel, we shall also know the way in which He "rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah."

The Bible makes this revealing statement regarding the ignoble fate of this privileged and mighty nation at the hand of the king of Babylon:

Zedekiah [the king] . . . did what is displeasing to Yahweh his God. He did not listen humbly to the prophet Jeremiah, accredited by Yahweh himself. He also rebelled against King Nebuchadnessar to whom he had sworn allegiance by God. He became stubborn and obstinately refused to return to Yahweh the God of Israel. Furthermore, all the heads of the priesthood, and the people too, added infidelity to infidelity, copying all the shameful practices of the nations and defiling the Temple that Yahweh had consecrated for himself in Jerusalem. Yahweh, the God of their ancestors, tirelessly sent them messenger after messenger, since he wished to spare his people and his house. But they ridiculed the messengers of God, they despised his words, they laughed at his prophets, until at last the wrath of Yahweh rose so high against his people that there was no further remedy.

He summoned against them the king of the Chaldeans who put their young warriors to the sword within their sanctuary; he spared neither youth nor virgin, neither old man nor aged cripple; God handed them all over to him" (2 Chronicles 36:11-17, JB).

"How can I give you up, Ephraim?

How can I hand you over, Israel?

How can I make you like Admah?

How can I set you like Zeboiim?

Here, again, God depicts Himself as doing what He does not prevent. He "summoned" the disaster, "spared neither" youth or aged. One might think God Himself personally inflicted this disaster upon His people. But no. The prophet Isaiah says in crystal-clear language that God "removed the protection of Judah" (Isaiah 22:8). As in the case of His own Son, the Sin-bearer, He simply ceased to protect, and the result? release into the hands of destruction. Thus it was with Israel. And thus with Sodom.[2][M.M. Campbell]

[LifeHiscost]

But wow it is nice to not have that fear there anymore!

Amen!

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."John 17:3 KJV

Blessings!

[Gerr]

Quote:

Judgment was given TO the saints - they were given the the right, the responsibility to judge.

New American Standard Bible: 1995 Update English Standard Version The New International Version New Century Version New Living Translation The Good News Translation The New King James Version The New Revised Standard Version

22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom. 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom. 22 until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. 22 until God, who has been alive forever, came. He judged in favor of the holy people who belong to the Most High God; then the time came for them to receive the power to rule. 22 until the Ancient One—the Most High—came and judged in favor of his holy people. Then the time arrived for the holy people to take over the kingdom. 22 Then the one who had been living for ever came and pronounced judgement in favour of the people of the Supreme God. The time had arrived for God’s people to receive royal power. 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. 22 until the Ancient One came; then judgment was given for the holy ones of the Most High, and the time arrived when the holy ones gained possession of the kingdom.

I don't see in any of these translations the sense in which you are interpreting the passage.

Quote:

That is the "Great Controverys"! Is God a God of Love, or a tyrant?

Do we view judges as tyrants because they mete out justice? Is that how we look at the Supreme Court of the USA? The supreme tyrant of the country?

[APL]

Gerry - you are correct, that some versions get it wrong! Compare the NIV in Romans 3:4 with GNT, ESV, KJV, NLT, RSV. The NIV gets it wrong.

Daniel 7:22 KJVR Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 Darby until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most high places ; and the appointed time arrived, and the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 BBE Till he came, who was very old, and the decision was made and the authority was given to the saints of the Most High; and the time came when the saints took the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 ASV until the ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High, and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Daniel 7:22 YLT till that the Ancient of Days hath come, and judgment is given to the saints of the Most High, and the time hath come, and the saints have strengthened the kingdom.

Notice - Judgment was given TO the saints. They were given judgment, understanding, discernment. They understood the issues of the great controversy, and they put their trust in God. The of His (God's) judgment has come, the hour he is being judged. Again, DA page 58

Quote:

In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3, 4. {DA 58.1}

Choice, judgment. We will decide our destiny. It is God's goodness that draws us to changing our minds about Him, Romans 2:4