Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Is this where you agree to the wrath of God statements above - but just want to "redefine wrath"??

"For the wrath of God is revealed..."(Romans 1:18) I would suggest reading on...Until you read and understand, you will not understand what EGW saw. You will take it literal and as your own human understanding. "I will strike the Shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered."(Matthew 26:31) You must understand what Gods wrath is my friend. Did God smite Jesus, did He strike Him?"O My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me"(Matthew 26:39) What cup is Jesus afraid of? If you haven't noticed, He is being separated from the Father at this point. What cup? "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation"(Revelation 14:10) Jesus drank the cup of Gods wrath the whole world should have drank. He was separated from the Father and didn't want to feel it, but He would still rather do the will of the Father. So what happened? Just like in old times, those who suffered Gods wrath..."Therefore the wrath of the Lord fell upon Judah and Jerusalem and He has given[or delivered] them up to trouble..."(2 Chronicles 29:8) "But after that our fathers had provoked the God of heaven unto wrath, He gave them[delivered] into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, the Chaldean, who destroyed this house, and carried the people away into Babylon"(Ezra 5:12)

"He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all..."(Romans 8:32) Did God the Father deliver His Son? No..."You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin."(John 19:11) Because Jesus drank the cup of Gods wrath. He was no longer protected, and Satan was allowed to do as he wanted. Because God the Father forsook Him "My God, My god, why have you forsaken Me?"(Matthew 27:46)The same wrath will be against the wicked in the end. They will not be protected by God. If you haven't noticed already. God withdraws His protection, releasing humans to whatever fate may await them outside Himself. But He sees and describes Himself as doing what He only permits. If God were to actually take life, then we have no free will. What did Judas end up doing? Killed himself. What did Saul do? Killed himself. What will Satan do? Most likely kill himself, and many others in the process.

[Robert]

So, Bob, what are you trying to prove? Let's say you are right, God kills and destroys. Now, since that's your idea of the God you worship, that will be your character, because Sister White says we become like who we worship.

Exactly!

Given our traditional view of God, Christians (like their concept of Him) are gentle and kind much of the time, except when the situation seems to call for gossip or destructive criticism or indifference to human woe or venting destructive emotions or taking human life. Isn't this how we see God's ways? The human mind has an extraordinary capacity for kindness, except toward those "demonized" humans we believe God abhors. If we cause those to suffer, it's okay, we think. Doesn't God do the same?

Historically, the "church" has carried the traditional view of God to its logical conclusion, by itself burning the opposition.[3] Religious bigots have bloodied the pages of history with unspeakable crimes, which surely flowed out of their picture of God.

Jesus predicted two thousand years ago that thus it would be. "The time is coming that whosoever kills you will think that he offers God service," He said (John 16:2). History confirms His prophecy. How could we, as Christians, have been so blind, so callous, so indifferent to human life? Jesus distills the answer down to its core. "These things they will do to you," He continues, "because they have not known the Father nor Me (v. 3). Because Scripture gives so many examples of God's wiping out His enemies, Christians have become confused regarding the interpretation of Jesus' words. They have concluded that when we destroy them, we're doing so as God's agents, but when they destroy us, they are fulfilling this prediction. We see our enemy as God's enemy and ourselves as His sword of justice, because for war to occur in the first place the warriors must be made to see their cause as righteous and the enemy's as evil. Yet is it not possible that Jesus meant that wherever people kill each other in the name of religion, neither side bears the signet of the living God?

It takes little imagination to see that the traditional view of God as One who can reach a point where He employs deadly force could lead to deplorable conditions where political power could be seen as a divine mandate to force the conscience of the politically weak. In czarist Russia, as well as pre-revolutionary France, for example, the church's connection with civil power engendered terrible abuses, causing an over-correction, which ended in atheistic regimes. Communism itself began as a protest against religious cruelty.

The Holocaust is a modern case in point, where a strong tradition of Judeo-Christian ethics didn't stop good and civilized people from supporting a regime which derived its power from the spilled blood of the governed and which attempted to exterminate an entire race perceived as undeserving of mercy. Where was the outrage, the conviction that causing the death of humans was intrinsically wrong?

Northern Ireland, the Middle East, Bosnia, Kosovo further illustrate the passion with which each side, believing it carries the flag of God in a righteous cause, kills and maims innocent civilians and destroys its own homeland in a seemingly endless bloodletting, presumably praying for the blessing of their fierce, nationalistic God before sallying forth on their missions of destruction. There are no wars bloodier than religious wars. Efforts to bring stability to such regions find religious fervor an almost impossible hurdle to overcome, politically generated peace accords notwithstanding.

And who can say if our traditional view of God as a destroyer has not in many ways encouraged the widespread secularization of our world, as thoughtful men and women see all this and note its inconsistency with mercy and justice hallmark attributes of the Christian God of whom they have been told. History offers an inexhaustible supply of illustrations of the subtle and pernicious effects the traditional view of a destroying God has had on civilization. It has opened the door to injustice and persecution throughout time; paved the way for intolerance, bigotry and the imposing of religious laws and duties upon an unconvinced people. If God can use force to get attention, the logic runs, then believers may use similar tactics to do his work. Civilizations do not rise higher morally than their concept of deity. "Ye are of your father . . . ," Said Jesus, "and the works of your father ye will do" (John 8:44, KJV).

And history confirms it. Without a settled conviction that hurting and destroying others is inherently wrong, society positions itself over an ethical bottomless pit, with no protective absolutes to break its moral fall. Where shall we find a model for such settled conviction, if we cannot find it in God? [Light on the Dark Side of God, by MM Campbell]

[Robert]

... since he [Robert] rejects Ellen White along with other key Adventist doctrines -- so this should be easy for him to respond to --) and he avoids it like a hot potato.

That's it, demonize Robert. Make him the apostate.

Bob, here's your problem. You can't see the forest for the trees. You are incapable of understanding this truth because you refuse to allow God's Spirit to give you advancing light.

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

[Robert]

You know what guys? The best way to change someone's mind is to join 'em. When I got out of legalism I found the best way to turn a legalist from self-righteousness was to given him or her so many rules that they would beg for grace. Now I'm going to do this with "the wrath of God."

Ez 5:13 In this way my anger will spend itself, my fury against them will die down, and I will be satisfied. Then, when I have spent my fury on them, they will know that I, God, have spoken out of my zeal. 14 'I will make you a ruin and an object of reproach among the nations around you, in the sight of all passing by. 15 When I execute judgments and furious punishments among you in anger and fury, I will be an object of reproach, derision and horror, and a lesson to warn the nations around you. I, God, have announced it. 16 I will send upon them the deadly, destructive arrows of famine, which I will send to destroy you. I will make the famine worse for you by cutting off your food supply. 17 Yes, I will send famine and savage beasts upon you to leave you without children; plague and bloodshed will sweep through you; and I will bring the sword upon you. I, God, have spoken it.'"

[Robert]

Deut 28:16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. 20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 25 The LORD shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth. 26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away!

[BobRyan]

So Robert - Deuteronomy not one of your favorite books of the Bible?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I also ask Robert if he "notices" that the details in that quote do not actually agree with his position (which "should" be no problem for Robert since he rejects Ellen White along with other key Adventist doctrines -- so this should be easy for him to respond to --) and he avoids it like a hot potato

[BobRyan]

So, Bob, what are you trying to prove? Let's say you are right, God kills and destroys.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Hold on a minute -- I did not write EW 294 or the Great Controversy. I am just pointing to some inconvenient text for those who prefer not to think about the "details" listed there.

Those text are not inconvenient in any way. John, or even EGW see what they see. Just like all the prophets in the past, it seems as if God is doing it. Just like God says "I will strike the Shepard."(Matthew 26:31) Did God strike Jesus and kill Him? NO! Will God bring fire down on people? He condemned it once already. "You do not know what spirit you are of"(Luke 9:55) What happens when God does what people tell Him to do? You know, like...Go away? What happens? Yeah, things get really bad. There is no restraint. What would stop Lucifer from killing himself and those around him with fire from heaven? Nothing...You see, your theory that God must end sin by cutting off free will...Would be like...Lets say someone jumped off of a building. God would have to intervene half way down and kill Him instead of letting him fall to the ground.

This message will become very clear as the plagues are being poured out. You will notice man doing it to himself, and not coming from God.

[Robert]

So Robert - Deuteronomy not one of your favorite books of the Bible? Bob

No, but it's depicts well your view of God....

[Robert]

So the upshot is that all Robert has to say there is "yes I admit that I do not agree with those statements that you quoted from Ellen White - one of the reasons I reject Ellen White.. etc etc"

You know what? I don't have to agree with EGW! She had limited light...in fact only a glimmer of light that was yet to come. She isn't the measuring stick of truth and I do not have to get EGW's permission nor yours and I don't have to accept her writings. The Bible is the measuring stick of truth!!! So you can get off that subject right now! Let's get back to the subject....

Rob

[Robert]

Deut 2:26 I sent messengers out of the wilderness of Kedemoth unto Sihon king of Heshbon with words of peace, saying, 27 Let me pass through thy land: I will go along by the high way, I will neither turn unto the right hand nor to the left. 28 Thou shalt sell me meat for money, that I may eat; and give me water for money, that I may drink: only I will pass through on my feet; 29 (As the children of Esau which dwell in Seir, and the Moabites which dwell in Ar, did unto me;) until I shall pass over Jordan into the land which the LORD our God giveth us.

Okay, Israel didn't want to go around these folks on their way to the promised land. Let's read on:

30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Hmmm? According to this, God hardened this King's heart and made him "obstinate" so that He could deliver them over to Israel's army.

So, let's take a step back. Israel doesn't want to go around this king. God hardens his heart so that this king won't let them pass through in order to deliver them over to the sword? Hmmm? Very interesting! Let's read on:

...33 And the LORD our God delivered him before us; and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain: 35 Only the cattle we took for a prey unto ourselves, and the spoil of the cities which we took. 36 From Aroer, which is by the brink of the river of Arnon, and from the city that is by the river, even unto Gilead, there was not one city too strong for us: the LORD our God delivered all unto us....

This is full of moral and ethical problems. It doesn't fit the Jesus I know from the NT. This is breaking every decent law known to men and God. It is stealing...it is brutality that makes Hitler look like a nice guy.

This is why folks are asking questions.

Rob

[Robert]

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain....

Tell you what, guys....I'm basically an easy going fellow, but yet I have a nature that isn't. So, being imperfect, if any of you "wrath of God type" showed up at my house to utterly slay me, well, let's just say that you'd meet with some resistance. And if you decided you were going to take my house, kill my wife (I mean ex-wife) and take my goods, well...I don't think so!

Now, now on the other hand, by the grace of God I might "love not my life even unto death", but right this moment I don't think so because I'm not that mature.

Just FYI,

Rob

[Robert]

And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city....

Again, I (like all of you) have a nature. While I'm not perfect, I endeavor (by the grace of God) not to feed my nature....But, for me to take a sword and lob of the head of a harmless infant is just pure evil. I'd have to have no conscience.....

Then, after I murdered that infant, I would have to turn on that terrified mother. Terrible....Just terrible! And then I would have to repeat this until I, and my comrades, utterly slayed all of them. Sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick, sick and sick!!!!

If I thought that God was telling me to do this, well, I wouldn't do it. In fact I'd say, "Hell no - get the behind me Satan"!

God is wanting us to understand something....There's some really ugly stuff going on in the OT and until we get this figured out (through the HS) most folks are going to run from God.

This is one of the most important subjects in the Bible. It's way more important then the Sabbath or the state of the dead. We must get to know God or everything else is meaningless!

Rob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Tell you what, guys....I'm basically an easy going fellow, but yet I have a nature that isn't. So, being imperfect, if any of you "wrath of God type" showed up at my house to utterly slay me, well, let's just say that you'd meet with some resistance. saywa And if you decided you were going to take my house, kill my wife (I mean ex-wife) and take my goods, well...I don't think so! angelnot

Now, now on the other hand, by the grace of God I might "love not my life even unto death", but right this moment I don't think so because I'm not that mature.

Just FYI,

Rob

Ah yes, I am in the same boat as you are. Before I started this topic, I only knew the very basics of God never destroying. As we keep going in this topic I learn more and more. You know, I never realized that God loves me more than He loves Himself. How amazing is that? It really makes me want to have that kind of love. To take care of others and forget about myself. Because that is how our God truly works.

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinner, Christ died for us"(Romans 5:8) I went through a lot of my life thinking ah yeah, Jesus died on the cross. That is cool I guess...It really didn't mean anything to me. 'So what' I would always think. I think that is a problem in most of Christianity. They don't truly understand what the cross meant. Most say "He died for my sins" Yes true, but it is more than that... Jesus could have jumped off that cross at any moment and saved Himself. He was tempted to do this several times. Yet He didn't because His love for us was greater than His love for Himself. He went through with it knowing in His mind that it could be it for Him. To never be with His Father again. To die a death and to cease to exist. Just so we could have the chance at heaven.

Which makes me wonder even more. Do people really think that the same God that went through all that will burn people alive? Only selfish love would do such an act.

[Tammy]

I didn't take time to read the 45 pages, here, so forgive me if this has already been said... - That this teaching of "God does not destroy" is not a new teaching at all....Fred Wright from Australia taught it back in the 80's...along with many other false doctrines that he taught. He wrote a book called, "Behold Your God" on the subject. He was a master at twisting the Scripture, once he got you on his foundation, he could take you almost anywhere....

[Robert]

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners [His enemies], Christ died for us"

Good quote. We are given the high standard to "love your enemies". Murdering a child of an enemy isn't love, it's cruel hatred.

Let's look at how Jesus acted when He was treated like dung:

1 Peter 2:21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps. 22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips. 23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly. 24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

He did not retaliate when he was insulted. When he suffered, he did not threaten to get even. He left his case in the hands of God, who always judges fairly. [NLT]

[Robert]

....Fred Wright from Australia taught it back in the 80's...along with many other false doctrines that he taught.

Look, I don't know who this guy is or what he wrote, but he is right that God doesn't kill! Sin kills...the wages of sin is death....Sin pays, not in money, but in death. That's why we are all dying....That's why there's no certainty in this world under Lucifer.

James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to such and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a profit"; 14 whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then vanishes away. 15 Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we shall live and do this or that." 16 But now you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil...

[Lutz13]

I didn't take time to read the 45 pages, here, so forgive me if this has already been said... - That this teaching of "God does not destroy" is not a new teaching at all....Fred Wright from Australia taught it back in the 80's...along with many other false doctrines that he taught. He wrote a book called, "Behold Your God" on the subject. He was a master at twisting the Scripture, once he got you on his foundation, he could take you almost anywhere....

Never heard of Fred Wright...This teaching goes further back than the 80s. Somewhere around 1888? Something like that...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I didn't take time to read the 45 pages, here, so forgive me if this has already been said... - That this teaching of "God does not destroy" is not a new teaching at all....Fred Wright from Australia taught it back in the 80's...along with many other false doctrines that he taught. He wrote a book called, "Behold Your God" on the subject. He was a master at twisting the Scripture, once he got you on his foundation, he could take you almost anywhere....

Never heard of Fred Wright...This teaching goes further back than the 80s. Somewhere around 1888? Something like that...

Actually back when the Bible was written! teehe

[Tammy]

I believe there are many times when we bring death on ourselves, by the choices of sin we make. There are also times when Satan is allowed to destroy people. But there are other times when God Himself does the destroying...

[Robert]

and we smote him, and his sons, and all his people. 34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain....

Luke 6:27 "But if you are willing to listen, I say, love your enemies. Do good to those who hate you. 28 Pray for the happiness of those who curse you. Pray for those who hurt you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. If someone demands your coat, offer your shirt also. 30 Give what you have to anyone who asks you for it; and when things are taken away from you, don't try to get them back. 31 Do for others as you would like them to do for you. 32 "Do you think you deserve credit merely for loving those who love you? Even the sinners do that! 33 And if you do good only to those who do good to you, is that so wonderful? Even sinners do that much! 34 And if you lend money only to those who can repay you, what good is that? Even sinners will lend to their own kind for a full return. 35 "Love your enemies! Do good to them! [how?] Lend to them! And don't be concerned that they might not repay. Then your reward from heaven will be very great, and you will truly be acting as children of the Most High, for he is kind to the unthankful and to those who are wicked. 36 You must be compassionate, just as your Father is compassionate. [NLT]

Hmmm?

Jesus, who is our example, would rather die the 2nd death (which He did) then to retaliate against his enemies.

Let' look at agape from Christ's point of view as He was nailed to a tree:

When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17).

Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ was totally God-dependent. Then read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Keep these two things in mind: Christ was God-dependent, and He was dependent on the Father for the resurrection. Don’t ask me what happened to His divine consciousness when He was in the grave. Where was His divine life? I don’t know. It’s a mystery. We will spend eternity studying that, but I do know one thing, it was the Father He was depending on for the resurrection just like everything else.

Do you know what the Father did on the cross? Christ cried out: “Father, Father why have you forsaken me?” What He meant is not “Why are you leaving me for three days?” but, “Why have You abandoned Me?” Do you know what that meant to Christ? It meant that the hope of the resurrection went with that abandonment. When the Father forsook Him in terms of Christ’s feeling, then the hope of the resurrection went with it. Jesus was now “treading the winepress alone.” He could no longer look on the Father with hope and assurance as far as His feelings were concerned. He felt the agony of God-abandonment, exactly what the wicked will feel when mercy no longer pleads with the guilty race.

Here is a key passage from Desire of Ages, by E.G. White, p 753: “He could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him the coming forth from the grave a conqueror or tell Him of the Father’s acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that their separation was to be eternal.” Do you realize what Christ was tempted to do on the cross as He hung there? The Father had forsaken Him. But remember, He was still God. He could have taken hold of His divinity independent of the Father, against the Father’s wishes, and come down from the cross to save Himself.

That is exactly what the devil tried to get Him to do. In Luke 23:35-39, at least three times the devil approached Christ—once through the Roman soldiers, once through the priests, and once through the thief on the left-hand side. Then, in Matt. 27:35-46, the people also added to that temptation. The temptation was the same, “Come down from the cross and save yourself.” Can you imagine what that temptation was like? We can’t. I’m glad Desire of Ages makes that clear: “The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. When you realize that is how much God loves you, can you be the same again? [Jack Sequeira, "Forsaken of God"]

[Robert]

There are also times when Satan is allowed to destroy people. But there are other times when God Himself does the destroying...

So God and Satan take turns, huh? God and Satan are partners terrorizing earth's inhabitants?

No, God loves us (His enemies) more than Himself. The cross proves this.

[Guest WilloMar]

Tammy, Tammy, Tammy... The Holy Spirit says: “Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren (and sisteren), knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.” James 3:1.

Prepare to welcome Christ!

[Robert]

Like I said, this is the most important subject in the whole Bible!!!! This is good stuff! The best!