Twilight Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 I can't find the post, but I said EGW said that Satan is getting older. Then someone else ask me to give that reference. Okay, here: -BC- EW -TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White -CN- 3 -CT- Spiritual Gifts -PR- 03 -PG- 152 I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. [sign of aging] As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible. Thank you :-) I do not see a reference to him aging here... Mark :-) Quote The best wisdom is always second hand...
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Like I said, this is the most important subject in the whole Bible!!!! This is good stuff! The best! Actually the most important message for our people right now is the merits of Christ... I'm talking about the world.... Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 I do not see a reference to him aging here... Mark :-) "but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. [sign of aging]" Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 But Robert, we do not want "your" God, we want the God of the bible... Okay....How was Jesus, the One who experienced the justice of God's law, cursed? First let's go to Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: 'Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree.'" Why is "cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree"? John 19:5 When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, "Here is the man!" 6 As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!" But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him." 7 The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God." Wasn't a blasphemer to be stoned to death according to the Old Covenant law? Yes, then why did they cry, "Crucify, crucify"? Turn to Deut 21:22 "And if a man has committed a crime punishable by death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, 23 his body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but you shall bury him the same day, for a hanged man is accursed by God. What does "accursed" by God mean? It means there's no hope of a resurrection. That's the 2nd death. So Christ took upon Himself the 2nd death. Now, the question is, how did God curse Christ? Remember, Christ was God, but His assumed humanity was ours. So when Christ died it was His human side that died the curse: "Deity did not die. Humanity died" [5BC 1113] Now the big ethical question: How did God bring His curse upon on our fallen, humanity? What did He do? He abandoned the humanity of Christ, which is our humanity too! That's how the unbeliever will die the 2nd death too. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. God will remove Himself from those who have persistently said "no" to His love gift found in Jesus Christ. Conclusion: God's wrath against sin is passive. God is a pacifist. He does not kill, sin kills. Yes, God assumes the blame, but ultimately sin destroys and hence Satan is to blame. Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews. What will happen when God abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them. This is very clear, Rob Quote
Woody Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 Thank you Robert. This is all very interesting. From a lurker .... Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology.
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 From an SDA perspective, most believe that God is all about free will. That is His gift to us. If God has to destroy, then that gift of freewill is taken away. Isn't that what unconditional love is? No matter what we do, He will still love us? I find it funny that Steve Wolberg says that the doctrine that God doesn't destroy is a doctrine from Satan. What he fails to realize is, if I am wrong, I still learned to worship God out of love, rather than fear. I also would gain a passive character. Where as if I am right, and those people who ignore this message become what they worship... Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 I would actually love to hear an explanation to the huge contradiction between the Old and New testament. The only explanation I keep hearing is when people label their human love onto God and expect Him to be like them. Which is absurd. Especially when things like - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways My ways, says the Lord."(Isaiah 55:8) I wish people would understand this! Stop placing our worthless human love onto God thinking He acts out the same as us. "And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man."(Romans 1:23) Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 Quote: We have to be careful here, a study of the Hebrew word in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" can in fact be rendered, "Thou shalt not murder". Yeah, where have I heard that one before? Ah yeah! "To kill an infidel is not murder, its the pathway to heaven!" The crusaders, or their higher ups for sure. Definitely studied the OT and thought they were doing God service. I wonder where they got the idea of burning people alive? Nice try though Twilight. I think I will try and stay passive and let whom ever kill me. Because what is the big deal? My next moment will be either...Jesus coming(I pray it is so) or waking up ready to self destruct. At least I will be done with this world! Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 As Richard Dawkins would say. “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal…pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” That is love? ....Can you explain how? You see...I believe in God, He proved Himself to me. Has done waaaay more than I deserve and still blesses me. However, there was a time where I would agree with Dawkins. Which is why I believe God had me look into His character and find out who He really is. I mean that is what God wants right? He wants me to question Him. He wants me to understand Him. Even though I fall on my face all the time, He picks me back up! Why are people so afraid to dig deep? To really really go after God? To really really understand Him? I told God I want to know everything! I won't give up! Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 I think I will try and stay passive and let whom ever kill me. Because what is the big deal? Quote
Robert Posted May 17, 2009 Posted May 17, 2009 “The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal…pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” Wow.... Anyway, just keep in mind that God assumes the blame because He has allowed Lucifer to develop his love of self. So, as I've said, He assumes the blame, but He is not to blame. Again, that will be ultimately settled in "the day of atonement". Quote
Administrators Gail Posted May 17, 2009 Administrators Posted May 17, 2009 I for one do not agree with Dawkins, either on his Darwinian views or the above statement. Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 Quote: I for one do not agree with Dawkins, either on his Darwinian views or the above statement. I don't either Gail. That is because I know better now. Quote
Lutz13 Posted May 17, 2009 Author Posted May 17, 2009 Quote: I was thinking of Isaiah 14 -- but it is Ezek 28:18. "Therefore I HAVE BROUGHT fire from the midst of you" in Christ, Bob Quote: Thank you :-) That would seem to go against the argument that God does not destroy. Mark "Because you speak this word, behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, and this people wood, and it shall devour them."(Jeremiah 5:14) So I take it God turned a bunch of people into wood, and let Jeremiah burn them up with His mouth. Since we are taking everything literal... Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Thank you Robert. This is all very interesting. From a lurker .... Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 I for one do not agree with Dawkins,.... Who is he? Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Originally Posted By: Gail I for one do not agree with Dawkins,.... Who is he? Never mind....I just did a bit of research and I found this on "The Selfish Gene": "The Selfish Gene, Dawkins explains how the selfish gene can also be a subtle gene. The world of the selfish gene revolves around savage competition, ruthless exploitation, and deceit, and yet, Dawkins argues, acts of apparent altruism do exist in nature. Bees, for example, will commit suicide when they sting to protect the hive, and birds will risk their lives to warn the flock of an approaching hawk." Well, he doesn't understand the difference between human love, which is self-seeking, and God's love, which seeketh not her own. Humans love their own, but it is a reciprocal love. In other words I love you if you love me, but if you do not love me then I am your enemy. God's love is unconditionally. God doesn't love just His friends - He loves and protects those who hate Him. What Dawkins calls the "selfish gene" is mere human nature. This he fails to understand also. Rob Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 God's love is unconditionally. God doesn't love just His friends - He loves and protects those who hate Him. Note the distinction between human love and God's love: Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless [slaves to our natures], Christ died for the ungodly [those who don't have God]. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a fair man, though for a good man [in worldly terms] someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But [i.e., in complete opposition to human love] God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners [verse 10: His enemies], Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 While we were still sinners [verse 10: His enemies], Christ died for us. As [Christ] hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins [i.e., God abandonment], Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8). In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape. [Jack Sequeira] Keep in mind that those who had Christ crucified were His enemies. Christ never did anything wrong, yet these people unjustly had Him nailed to a tree. How would you respond if some folks raped your wife and then murdered her and your kids? Would you take their punishment even if they were unrepentant? Not only take their punishment, but be willing to die the 2nd death (no resurrection) so they could take your place in heaven? Well, Christ did.... That's agape. Agape loves the unlovable. Agape loves without cause. It doesn't depend on the goodness or the beauty of the person. Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 When the Bible says that “God is love” [1 John 4:8, 16], it doesn’t mean that one of His attributes is love. It means that He is love. It means that love is the essence of His nature. Because of this, we need to understand everything about God and all that He does in the context of this love. Even His law and His wrath must be understood in the context of His love [see Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 1:18-32]. Paul defines God’s wrath passively as a love that will not coerce, but allows us to go when we deliberately choose our own way [see Romans 1:24, 26, 28]. You see, human love differs from God’s love in three ways. 1. Human love is conditional; God’s love is unconditional. 2. Human love is changeable. The fact that you love me today is no guarantee that you will love me tomorrow. That’s the tragedy with human love. But the fact that God loves me today, I can guarantee that He loves me tomorrow because His love is unchangeable. Jeremiah tells us that He loves us with an everlasting love [chapter 31:3]. In 1 Corinthians 13:8 where Paul defines and explains this Agape love, he says, “Agape never fails.” We have a God whose love is changeless. 3. Human love is self-seeking. At the heart of all human love is self, because that’s how we are by the fall. We have sinful natures that are egocentric. But God’s love is self-giving. And because it is self-giving, He has only one desire, to live for you. [Jack Sequeira] Quote
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Guys/gals...remember your marriage vows (assuming you've been married)? What did you say? "I love you forever until death do us apart"! Well, what happened? It's like Alanis Morissette said in her song, "You ought to know" -- "Does she know how you told me you'd hold me until you died, 'til you died, but you're still alive." Folks, that's human love! Again, human love is reciprocal. I love you if you love me, but if you cheat on me..if you lie to me...if you steal from me, well, get lost. So human love is conditional. Human love wants something in return. That's why you see gals marring guys with lots of money and guys marring girls for looks and sex. All egocentric and doomed to fail. Quote
Moderators John317 Posted May 18, 2009 Moderators Posted May 18, 2009 Guys/gals...remember your marriage vows (assuming you've been married)? What did you say? "I love your forever until death do us apart"! Well, what happened? Really wanna know, Rob? I love her a lot more than that day in Las Vegas. I hardly knew her. I feel like I really fell in love with my wife the night I spent with her in labor with our first child. Then there were other times after that when I fell in love with her even more. Recently, too. Not sure I'll ever stop. Hope and pray not anyway. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Robert Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 Not sure I'll ever stop. Hope and pray not anyway. Well...human love always fails, but God's love doesn't. Hence the import of God's imparted love.... Quote
LifeHiscost Posted May 18, 2009 Posted May 18, 2009 If God were to say follow me or I will kill you, that is not free will. If God says follow me or else you will hurt yourself, that is free will. That is also how God punishes us. In reality we punish ourselves, but since God allows it and doesn't prevent it, He takes blame. That's how I see it. Except for the last disposition of the problem of evil in the universe. "For Jehovah will rise up as in mount Perazim, he will be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon; that he may do his work, his strange work, and bring to pass his act, his strange act."Isaiah 28:21 ASV If God were about wreaking vengeance down through the centuries as evil manifested itself, then His last act of disposing of evil wouldn't be strange to Him. Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
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