Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

To no one in particular.

So far I haven't seen any mention of another aspect of God's character, i.e. He is also just, and He is also Judge. Love must also be just.

Sure, I've mentioned it many times. Look at Christ, judgment/justice was placed against Him.

Then My anger [God's Wrath against sin - His justice] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?" [ De 31:17]

Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I [God] will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' [Matt 26:31]

He [God - at the incarnation] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as one of us]....[2 Cor 5:21]

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" [Matt 27:46]

"But he [Christ] endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought [i.e., we assumed] that his suffering was punishment from God." [is 53:4]

[APL]

How does God "punish"?...

Deuteronomy 31:16-17 GNB (16) The LORD said to Moses, "You will soon die, and after your death the people will become unfaithful to me and break the covenant that I made with them. They will abandon me and worship the pagan gods of the land they are about to enter. (17) When that happens, I will become angry with them; I will abandon them, and they will be destroyed. Many terrible disasters will come upon them, and then they will realize that these things are happening to them because I, their God, am no longer with them.

Deuteronomy 32:22-30 GNB (22) My anger will flame up like fire and burn everything on earth. It will reach to the world below and consume the roots of the mountains. (23) " 'I will bring on them endless disasters and use all my arrows against them. (24) They will die from hunger and fever; they will die from terrible diseases. I will send wild animals to attack them, and poisonous snakes to bite them. (25) War will bring death in the streets; terrors will strike in the homes. Young men and young women will die; neither babies nor old people will be spared. (26) I would have destroyed them completely, so that no one would remember them. (27) But I could not let their enemies boast that they had defeated my people, when it was I myself who had crushed them.' (28) "Israel is a nation without sense; they have no wisdom at all. (29) They fail to see why they were defeated; they cannot understand what happened. (30) Why were a thousand defeated by one, and ten thousand by only two? The LORD, their God, had abandoned them; their mighty God had given them up.

Originally Posted By: APL

Justice is doing the right thing, making things right. Justice in a Biblical sense is not punitive. God is not punitive.

God is Love. period - full stop.

"Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."

Exodus 32:34 NIV

"'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Lev 26:18 NASB

"...and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Matthew 24:49-51 NASB

" But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:47-49 NIV

"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.""Luke 20:47 NIV

Regards!

[Robert]

Then My anger [God's Wrath against sin - His justice] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?" [ De 31:17]

Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I [God] will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' [Matt 26:31]

He [God - at the incarnation] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as one of us]....[2 Cor 5:21]

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" [Matt 27:46]

"But he [Christ] endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought [i.e., we assumed] that his suffering was punishment from God." [is 53:4]

Here's the thing -- was God's "wrath" passive or active? In other words did God destroy Christ? Remember Christ died the death that the unbeliever will die, i.e., the 2nd death.

Let's look at EGW (because here she is 100% accurate):

The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb [Why? Because the hope of the resurrection, God, had abandoned Christ] . Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [That's the 2nd death]. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. [DA 753]

Did you get that? The Bible says, "Christ tasted death for all men" [Hebrews 2:9] He experience God's wrath against sin, which is God abandonment.

Think about it, if God had remained with Christ no one could have touched Him. Christ would have never experienced the 2nd death, which again is, God's departure.

Why would God act differently with the unbeliever? If God handed over Christ to the surrounding destruction, why would God do differently with the unbeliever?

Christ's torment...Christ's death was due to His Father's abandonment. This is the curse of the law that Paul speaks of in Gal chapter 3.

Now in Revelation we are told that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. Here, let's look at this:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Again, what's the 2nd death? Not fire and brimstone...not a wooden cross, but no hope of a resurrection.

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God's abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

As I've stated many a time, God is holding back the winds of calamity. Why do you think that this world has earthquakes & volcanic activity? Because it's coming apart and if wasn't for God we would have been destroyed.

In the end God will abandon not only the unbeliever, but the earth. When He does this calamity will destroy the unbeliever. This leads to the 2nd death.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Here's a modern day scenario:

"Yes, Mrs. Smith?" "Yes", she replies ~ "Your son took some money out of the offering plate. Gather your family up and prepare to die. We will execute all of you at noon." "If that's God's will, okay pastor" replies the woman.

Huh?

Why not this scenario instead of that?

"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.""Genesis 22:2 NIV

Come on, not even close. This isn't the same thing at all.

God was testing Abraham's faith (I won't go into why here). God's intention was never to harm Isaac. Besides, Isaac wasn't being punished.

Rob

[Robert]

The Lord is sovereign.

All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Thus saith the Lord ... "there is no God beside me" ... "I am the Lord, and there is none else" ... "I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

Here God is actually assuming the blame because He created all of us, including Lucifer, with a free will.

Face it, if God hadn't abandoned Christ, He would have never died. But...Who killed Christ ultimately? That issue will be solved in "the day of atonement"! Hence, until then God assumes the blame. Then God will place the actual blame on Satan. That's what the symbology of the two goats is all about.

Since God is sovereign this simply means nothing can happen without His consent, but that doesn't mean that God is guilty of murder, torture and a host of other evils.

[APL]

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God's abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

Here is where I would differ. Christ did not die of crucifixion, he was crucified, no question. But he died much quicker than one usually does from crucifixion. Recall they wanted to break his legs to speed things along, but were amazed that he was already dead. External forces do not kill the sinner. Sin kills the unrepentant sinner. The wages of sin, is death (Rom 6:23). Sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death (Jam 1:15).

[Robert]

Think about it, if God had remained with Christ no one could have touched Him.

Before God's abandonment:

John 7:28 Jesus was still teaching in the temple courtyard. He cried out, "Yes, you know me. And you know where I am from. I am not here on my own. The One who sent me is true. You do not know him. 29 But I know him. I am from him, and he sent me." 30 When he said this, they tried to arrest him. But no one laid a hand on him because His time had not yet come.

When God departed:

Luke 22:23 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness!"

How?

John 19:10 Pilate therefore said to him, "Do you refuse to speak to me? Do you not know that I have power to release you, and power to crucify you?" 11 Jesus answered him, "You would have no power over me unless it had been given you from above."

[Robert]

Christ did not die of crucifixion...

True, it usually takes 3 to 7 days to slowly suffocate by crucifixion, but Christ died the same day as He was crucified.

Why? His heart literally burst....His humanity couldn't take the stress! What stress?

You must remember that all through His earthly life Christ and His Father were one! God was Christ's best friend. He was everything....God was also Christ's ticket from death. So when God fully abandoned Christ...when His best friend retreated, Christ's heart burst within His chest.

That's so sad....Christ didn't die because of fear of God, but because He feared to be without God. But it shows us how much Christ loves us sinners. He was willing to take our death, with no hope of resurrection, so that we could have His place in heaven. Man, that's love...

[Lutz13]

Quote:

That's so sad....Christ didn't die because of fear of God, but because He feared to be without God. But it shows us how much Christ loves us sinners. He was willing to take our death, with no hope of resurrection, so that we could have His place in heaven. Man, that's love...

Indeed. Sadly Christianity preaches that we better repent or else. That we should be afraid of God. I would rather repent out of love, than of fear.

[Robert]

Quote:

That's so sad....Christ didn't die because of fear of God, but because He feared to be without God. But it shows us how much Christ loves us sinners. He was willing to take our death, with no hope of resurrection, so that we could have His place in heaven. Man, that's love...

Indeed. Sadly Christianity preaches that we better repent or else. That we should be afraid of God. I would rather repent out of love, than of fear.

Remember King David? Remember His sins? He took a man's wife, got the woman pregnant, and then tried to get her husband to go sleep with her so it looked like it was his child. Then, when he wouldn't, David had him killed. Talk about a mess!

Let's see how David reacted when he repented:

Ps 51:11 "Do not cast me away from Your presence [do not abandon me], And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. 12 Restore to me the joy of Your salvation...."

[Robert]

Quote:

Then My anger [God's Wrath against sin - His justice] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured; and many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, `Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?" [ De 31:17]

Then Jesus said to them, "All of you will be made to stumble because of Me this night, for it is written: 'I [God] will strike the Shepherd, And the sheep of the flock will be scattered.' [Matt 26:31]

He [God - at the incarnation] made Him [Jesus as God] who knew no sin to be sin [as one of us]....[2 Cor 5:21]

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "ELI , ELI, LAMA SABACHTHANI?" that is, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" [Matt 27:46]

"But he [Christ] endured the suffering that should have been ours, the pain that we should have borne. All the while we thought [i.e., we assumed] that his suffering was punishment from God." [is 53:4]

Here's the thing -- was God's "wrath" passive or active? In other words did God destroy Christ? Remember Christ died the death that the unbeliever will die, i.e., the 2nd death.

Let's look at EGW (because here she is 100% accurate):

The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb [Why? Because the hope of the resurrection, God, had abandoned Christ] . Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal [That's the 2nd death]. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. [DA 753]

Did you get that? The Bible says, "Christ tasted death for all men" [Hebrews 2:9] He experience God's wrath against sin, which is God abandonment.

Think about it, if God had remained with Christ no one could have touched Him. Christ would have never experienced the 2nd death, which again is, God's departure.

Why would God act differently with the unbeliever? If God handed over Christ to the surrounding destruction, why would God do differently with the unbeliever?

Christ's torment...Christ's death was due to His Father's abandonment. This is the curse of the law that Paul speaks of in Gal chapter 3.

Now in Revelation we are told that the lake of fire is the 2nd death. Here, let's look at this:

"But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Again, what's the 2nd death? Not fire and brimstone...not a wooden cross, but no hope of a resurrection.

What happened when God abandoned Christ? The surrounding forces destroyed Him. In this case it was the Romans and the Jews.

What will happen when God's abandons the unbelievers? The surrounding forces will destroy them.

As I've stated many a time, God is holding back the winds of calamity. Why do you think that this world has earthquakes & volcanic activity? Because it's coming apart and if wasn't for God we would have been destroyed.

In the end God will abandon not only the unbeliever, but the earth. When He does this calamity will destroy the unbeliever. This leads to the 2nd death.

This is how I see it....Correct me, if you can....I'm open, but stick to the above context.

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

Sin, when it is full grown, brings forth death (Jam 1:15).

Good point....Again, sin causes the loss of life. Sin is a killer.

[Lutz13]

[Robert]

I can't find the post, but I said EGW said that Satan is getting older. Then someone else ask me to give that reference. Okay, here:

-BC- EW

-TI- Early Writings of Ellen G. White

-CN- 3

-CT- Spiritual Gifts

-PR- 03

-PG- 152

I was shown Satan as he once was, a happy, exalted angel. Then I was shown him as he now is. He still bears a kingly form. His features are still noble, for he is an angel fallen. But the expression of his countenance is full of anxiety, care, unhappiness, malice, hate, mischief, deceit, and every evil. That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede. I saw that he had so long bent himself to evil that every good quality was debased, and every evil trait was developed. His eyes were cunning, sly, and showed great penetration. His frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face. [sign of aging] As I beheld him, his chin was resting upon his left hand. He appeared to be in deep thought. A smile was upon his countenance, which made me tremble, it was so full of evil and satanic slyness. This smile is the one he wears just before he makes sure of his victim, and as he fastens the victim in his snare, this smile grows horrible.

[Robert]

What they don't understand is that God assumes the responsibility, but not the guilt. Again, that gets cleared up in the day of atonement.

You see sin wouldn't exist if God had not created Lucifer. He knew Lucifer would become bent-towards-self and create iniquity (a -turn agape). Because God is sovereign and because He has allowed Lucifer, turned Satan, to develop his love of self, God assumes the blame.

Take King Saul, for example: Why did King Saul turn his back on God? Because God allowed Satan to develop sin. So Saul, like all of us, had to deal with the devil and the flesh (his sin nature).

Because Saul fed his nature to the point of apostasy, God backed off. If God had been with Saul in the midst of battle Saul wouldn't have got himself in this predicament. You see Saul was surrounded by His enemies (he was losing the battle) and instead of letting his enemies torture him, he committed suicide.

If God would have never allowed Satan to develop sin Saul wouldn't have ever committed suicide. So God says, "I killed Saul".

Did He? Yes, but no....

Yes, because He has allowed sin...but no because God didn't invent sin. Lucifer did....

So, again, in "the day of atonement" Christ will lay the blame where it belongs - on Satan. But until then God assumes the blame because He has allowed sin in.....

I know I'm repeating myself a lot....

Rob

[Lutz13]

Indeed. The picture shows a traditional view of God. It also shows Satan as more loving. So I pray people dig a little deeper.

[Robert]

So, again, in "the day of atonement" Christ will lay the blame where it belongs - on Satan. But until then God assumes the blame because He has allowed sin in.....

The cross did not deal with the blame. Who was to blame for sin? The cross only took our guilt and our punishment. As far as we are concerned, there is an atonement between us and God through the blood of Christ. But the issue now is, “Who is to blame for sin?” [Jack Sequeira]

[Robert]

So, again, in "the day of atonement" Christ will lay the blame where it belongs - on Satan. But until then God assumes the blame because He has allowed sin in.....

Proof:

2 Thess 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away [the great apostasy] comes first... 9 The coming of the lawless one [the man of sin] is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who is to blame: "the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception

Who assumes the blame: "And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,"

[Robert]

Why did God allow sin to be developed by Lucifer, turned Satan?

When Lucifer sinned, did he think he was doing a good thing? Or did he think he was doing a bad thing?

He said that he was trying to improve the lot of the angels. There’s something here that is very important and we need to understand it. The love of God, which is the basis of His government, has no self in it. “Love seeketh not her own.” When you look at it philosophically, the love of self sounds very convincing. “You cannot be happy unless you love self.” So the idea of self-love sounds right. There is that text in Proverbs that says, “There’s a way that seems right.”

So Lucifer felt that his way of self-love was better than God’s way where there is no self. So God said, “Go ahead, I will allow you to develop sin,” because that’s what the meaning of sin is. Sin is turning toward self. God said, “I will allow you to develop this world on the principle of self.” This world has been developed on the principle of self for the last six thousand years. Has the world improved? No. If you look at the history of this world, the moment you lift up the principle of self, what happens to society? Does it become better or does it become worse? It becomes worse. [Jack Sequeira.]

I'm mean, listen to these words:

The greastest love of all (click here)

Here are the lyrics (keep in mind when she uses the word "love" she means "self-love"):

I believe the children are our future

Teach them well and let them lead the way

Show them all the beauty they possess inside

Give them a sense of pride to make it easier

Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

Everybody's searching for a hero

People need someone to look up to

I never found anyone who fulfilled my needs

A lonely place to be

And so I learned to depend on me

I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows

If I fail, if I succeed at least I live as I believe

No matter what they take from me

They can't take away my dignity

Because the greatest love of all is happening to me

I found the greatest love of all inside of me

The greatest love of all is easy to achieve

Learning to love yourself, it is the greatest love of all

I believe the children are our future

Teach them well and let them lead the way

Show them all the beauty they possess inside

Give them a sense of pride to make it easier

Let the children's laughter remind us how we used to be

I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadows

If I fail, if I succeed at least I live as I believe

No matter what they take from me

They can't take away my dignity

Because the greatest love of all is happening to me

I found the greatest love of all inside of me

The greatest love of all is easy to achieve

Learning to love yourself, it is the greatest love of all

And if by chance that special place

That you've been dreaming of

Leads you to a lonely place

Find your strength in love [i.e., self-love].

So self-love sounds simply wonderful. That's why Lucifer was allowed to develop this principle.

[Robert]

Quote:

So self-love sounds simply wonderful. That's why Lucifer was allowed to develop this principle.

It's like some of the egocentric managers where I work. They come with these schemes to promote themselves so that they can get to the top of the corporate ladder and so on paper their ideas sound simply wonderful, but when put into action it was a bad idea. But by then they've moved on to the top....So the new managers have to deal with their nonsense.

You see sin is a deceiver. The love of self sounds wonderful, so wonderful that 1/3 of all the angels in heaven fell for it.

So in order to expose "sin" (the love of self) God had no choice but to allow Lucifer to develop it.

Rob

[Twilight]

Twilight said that "Peter responded in the flesh, using violence to deal with the situation, but from a carnal sense (when he cut of that ear). This is talking about a flesh response, as was bringing fire down from heaven (when the disciples asked Jesus if He wanted them to command fire to come down like Elijah did). Remember, the ultimate premise being set before you, is that God and God alone has the right to take life, unless he vests that authority in humanity or angels specifically."

First of all, all violence and destruction is carnal/sinful, a fleshly response. God can take life, but He won't, because if He did He would cease to be God. God is God because He is Love, which is what rules all worlds, except, of course, ours, but the whole universe is govern by Love.

Sin destroys, because that's its natural propensity. Therefore to say God destroys is to say He is sin (although He was made to be sin, He never personaly sinned).

Let's all be able to welcome Jesus, OK?!

We have to be careful here, a study of the Hebrew word in the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" can in fact be rendered, "Thou shalt not murder".

Now if that is the intention and meaning, and God does indeed kill, but not murder, then it is those that say it is wrong to kill that are indeed misrepresenting Gods character.

To paint God as a pacifist needs to first deal with the clear counter evidence that is available.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Can you share the Isaiah text please Bob?

Mark [/quote']

I was thinking of Isaiah 14 -- but it is Ezek 28:18.

"Therefore I HAVE BROUGHT fire from the midst of you"

in Christ,

Bob

Thank you :-)

That would seem to go against the argument that God does not destroy.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

... since he [Robert] rejects Ellen White along with other key Adventist doctrines -- so this should be easy for him to respond to --) and he avoids it like a hot potato.

That's it, demonize Robert. Make him the apostate.

Bob, here's your problem. You can't see the forest for the trees. You are incapable of understanding this truth because you refuse to allow God's Spirit to give you advancing light.

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

I think you addressed this to me in error Rob?

But we could turn Ellens statement back on your position, could we not?

Maybe you have gone too far with this principle and you need to reconsider your position, are you willing to face this statement?

God bless :-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Like I said, this is the most important subject in the whole Bible!!!! This is good stuff! The best!

Actually the most important message for our people right now is the merits of Christ...

The 1888 message, but that is another topic...

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Good approach Robert.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and add a little bit of spice.

From now on I'm going to present a god meaner and angrier then their god. Then maybe they'll say, "Hey, Rob, I kind of like your kinder, gentler, pacifist God a lot better"?

But Robert, we do not want "your" God, we want the God of the bible...

:-)

Mark