Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

And in EW 294 God does it in such a way that "Satan suffers for many days" and that he is punished according to his "greater guilt" as determined by the Law. In fact as the text says "as long as there is a particle left for the fire to feed on all the sense of suffering remains".

Fits perfectly. Just glad I didn't say it.

in Christ,

Bob

Can you share the Isaiah text please Bob?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

And in EW 294 God does it in such a way that "Satan suffers for many days" and that he is punished according to his "greater guilt" as determined by the Law. In fact as the text says "as long as there is a particle left for the fire to feed on all the sense of suffering remains".

Fits perfectly. Just glad I didn't say it.

in Christ,

Bob

Ah yes Bob, according to text God brought fire down on Jobs stuff too.

Why must we assume that fire coming down from heaven is only from satan?

Using one example does not then mean we can use it in every example.

Mark

[Twilight]

"and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass...Thus saith God, Why transgress you the commandments of the Lord, that you cannot prosper? because you have forsaken the Lord, he has forsaken you....and it came to pass...that the host of Syria came up against him; and they came to Judah and Jerusalem, and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people..."--2 Chronicles 24:18-23

Can I just make a point about posting etiquette?

When posts are bolded and enlarged like this, it comes across as angry shouting.

Very disconcerting and almost impossible to read.

Can I suggest you just bold the specific comments Robert and Lutz?

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Why must we assume that fire coming down from heaven is only from satan?

"But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?' But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of." --Luke 9:55

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever." --Hebrews 13:8

[Twilight]

Quote:

Why must we assume that fire coming down from heaven is only from satan?

"But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, 'Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?' But He turned and rebuked them, and said, 'You do not know what manner of spirit you are of." --Luke 9:55

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today and forever." --Hebrews 13:8

We are looking at two different events here.

One is a rebuke against the two apostles because they had a spirit to destroy the people because they would not agree with them.

The other is Gods act of judgement and punishment when He has shown the whole universe it is indeed just for Him to perform this act.

Using the term "fire from heaven" to connect these two verses is not necessarily correct.

God bless,

Mark

[Guest WilloMar]

“This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God (the destruction of the wicked). The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown. God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God (the wrath of God, Rom. 1:18, 24, 26, 28), and thus cuts himself off from life. He is ‘alienated from the life of God.’ Christ says, ‘All they that hate Me love death.’ Eph. 4:18; Prov. 8:36. God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire. The glory (character) of Him who is love will destroy them.

“At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.” DA 764

EW 58: “What leisure time we have should be spent in searching the Bible (the Word of God) which is to judge us in the last day.” – Ps. 18:8: “There went up a smoke out of His nostrils, and a fire out of His mouth devoured…” Jer. 23:29: “Is not My words like as a fire…”? “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (“brightness of His glory.” See GC 657 and SC 29) 2 Thess. 2:8.

“The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet, ‘O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself:’ ‘for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.’ Hos. 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan’s vindictive power over those who yield to his control.

“We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God’s mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecter of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted (the sin against the Holy Spirit, Matt. 12:31, 32), is at last withdrawn from the sinner and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offer of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God’s hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty.

“The Saviour’s prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God’s mercy and trampled upon His law. Dark are the records of human misery that earth has witnessed during its long centuries of crime.... Terrible have been the results of rejecting the authority of Heaven. But a scene yet darker is presented in the revelations of the future. The records of the past, -- the long procession of tumults, conflicts, and revolutions, the ‘battle of the warrior, with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood,’ Isa. 9:5. – what are these, in contrast with the terrors of that day when the restraining Spirit of God shall be wholly withdrawn from the wicked, no longer to hold in check the outburst of human passion and satanic wrath. The world will then behold, as never before, the results of Satan’s rule.

“But in that day, as in the time of Jerusalem’s destruction, God’s people will be delivered... Christ has declared that He will come the second time, to gather His faithful ones to Himself: ‘Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of God coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory (character, SD 337). And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.’ Matt. 24:30, 31. Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth (His Word), and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming (His glory, GC 657) 2 Thess. 2:8. Like Israel of old, the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.” GC 35-37

NOW READ THE GREAT CONTROVERY, pp. 672, 673.

When prophets, including E. G. White, see destruction coming upon the world, they assume it comes from God, because, let’s face it, that’s what it looks like. However, the point you must remember is God and Satan both use fire: God’s fire destroys, through His Word, our wicked nature, if we allow. Satan’s fire destroys souls, actually! Don’t forget to read the last sentence on page 673: “While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield.” Rev. 20:6; Ps. 84:11 (&12, God’s wrath, Rom. 1:18-28)

Christ is coming soon, prepare!

[Robert]

Your emotive argument does not answer the question I posed...

[Robert]

Indeed. That is the "innexplicable" point in their argument.

Sometimes called "a big red flag".

in Christ,

Bob

No, what it shows is how much your human nature has influenced your mind. Look at anything but the ugly truth. For God to drown or burn to death the innocent is outrageous. As I've stated, your view of God makes Hitler look like a choirboy.

[Robert]

What is the wrath of God Bob?

Lutz13,

Notice how the boy answers you: Rev and EGW.

Revelation is highly symbolic and EGW is the lesser, limited light. Either way Bob has found an accommodating method to create a god in his likeness after his sinful attributes.

[Robert]

Do you see it in terms like "Justice" "Vengence" and "full penalty of the Law" when you read what is stated at that link?

How did Christ die? What death did Christ die? Did God kill Christ or did God abandon Christ because He became sin, who as Deity, personally knew no sin?

That's how any lost sinner will die too....If not, then God has two ways of dealing with sin. One for Christ and one for everyone else.

God forsook Christ starting in Gethsemane. What did Jesus tell His captors? "This is your hour and the host of darkness." How is that possible? Because God forsook Christ. That's why Jesus said, "My Father, my Father, why have You forsaken me?"

What happens when God leaves? What happened when God abandoned Christ? Right and it ended in the 2nd death.

Deut 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

This is so utterly simple a caveman could understand it! teehe

[Robert]

There is no mention at all in the book of Job of God saying that he brought fire down on Job. Only satan attributes the act to God in the book of Job Bob

No, the messenger does too. You and him have something in common: Mistaken theology that eventually leads people to renounce Christ. They must think, "Why do we need a devil when God outdoes him?"

Your theology of a angry, vengeful God has made many a good atheist. Keep up the good work because that sure ain't glory for God, it's glory to Satan because he's laughing his sick, freaking head off knowing folks are placing his attributes onto God.

[Robert]

I guess I missed the "God is a liar" text.

No, Bob's theology is a lie....It misrepresents God! That's the lie....

[Robert]

Quote:

I guess I missed the "God is a liar" text.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" --2 Thess 2:11

And just before this Paul says Satan brings delusions. God, again, is assuming the blame since He has allowed Satan to develop his brand of self-love. I can't understand why these folks can't see it? Maybe Satan is blinding them?

2 Cor 4:4 Satan, the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe, so they are unable to see the glorious light of the God [His agape love] that is shining upon them. They don't understand the message we preach about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

[Robert]

For myself, I'm still not convinced that the giving up of men to their own rebellious ways is the same thing as God's wrath.

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." --Romans 1:18"

There is nothing here that says that God's wrath is the same thing as giving them up.

Read on Gail, read on:

"verse 26 God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. 27 And the men, etc...."

Sin kills....In particular here, AIDS kills. Sexual impurity, sexual immorality, kills....God doesn't kill, sin kills. God removes Himself from those who reject Him and what happens?

Then my anger [which is passive, non-violent] shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?

[Robert]

Can you point to one place where it says that Satan destroys the wicked and himself and manages to do all that to an appropriate amount of time deserving of that punishment?

Man you are aggravating...and hardheaded too....

Who invented sin?

Answer: Satan!

His own creation destroys him. When God fully abandons Satan, this world under the decay of sin, destroys both Satan and his sympathizers. Comprehend?

Since Satan invented iniquity (one's bent towards self) and since sin destroys, Satan kills himself. Again, so simple a caveman could understand it. It's not calculus.

Rob

[Robert]

Why must we assume that fire coming down from heaven is only from satan?

The earth, according to Paul, is decaying...it's falling apart. Natural disasters are everywhere" Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, famine, volcanoes, etc....And as bad as it is God's holding the winds of strife back.....He's got His finger in the dike....When God's backs off, when our God is not among us, bad things happen. Sin pays in death....

For Pete sakes man, try using your head!!!

Rob

[Robert]

Deut 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

Now, let's apply this principle to Sodom and Gomorrah:

"Jerusalem stumbled, and Judah is fallen . . . They declare their sin as Sodom; they do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Isaiah 3:8,9).

"The punishment of the iniquity of the daughter of my people is greater than the punishment of the sin of Sodom, which was overthrown in a moment, with no hand to help her!" (Lamentations 4:6. See also Isaiah 1:9,10; Matthew 10:12-15; 11:23,24: Romans 9:29.)

Most revealing, however, is a familiar reference often quoted to depict the pain God feels at the death of sinners.

How can I give you up Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I make you like Admah? How can I set you like Zeboiim? My heart churns within Me. My sympathy is stirred. (Hosea 11:8)

God uses the name Ephraim as a generic term in the same way He sometimes uses the name Judah, to denote an entire population.

No writer could more poignantly portray God's distress at the thought of "handing over" or "giving up" the nation to destruction, as He would one day deliver up the Sin-bearer to redeem a lost race. He compares such a prospect to the time He gave up and handed over Admah and Zeboiim.

Deuteronomy 29:23 and Genesis 14:2,8 give the names of all four cities destroyed when God delivered up these Cities of the Plain: Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboiim. According to Hosea, then, these last two cities, and by implication, Sodom and Gomorrah with them, were handed over and given up to destruction.

Again, so simple a cavemen could understand it!

[Planey]

It's not calculus.

Oy!!

Mathematics is one of the purest disciplines known to Man.

Please don't drag it's lucent, pristine name into your sordid theology!

Graeme

PS I disagree with your metaphor as well.

The implication is that calculus is a subject difficult to comprehend, when actually it is lucid and simple.

Remember, I am a Math teacher and speak with authority on these matters

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Your emotive argument does not answer the question I posed...

If I can't prick your conscience then it's a sad day.

Quote:

I am still not sure how Satan is going to cause everyone to suffer the exact punishment for each of their sins...?

Mark, you need to learn to read and understand. Sin kills....The Bible plainly states this. If God kills then God = sin. Satan dies because sin puts him in the grave. His own child, sin, turns on him. God removes Himself and sin takes its inventor 6 ft under.

The wages of sin is death.

That is not a defence of the position you are presenting, it does not state how death occurrs and by whose hand.

Just that sin results in death.

So there is still no evidence that satan destroys himself and others in a manner that indicates a set time for the punishment, from the bible itself.

You are presenting concepts but no scripture here.

This counsel serves me well:

If we want to know the way to heaven we must study the Bible, not man-made theories or man's suppositions. . . . We are not at all ashamed of our faith, Seventh-day Adventism, for it is the very best specification we can have. We are waiting for the second coming of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Men may scoff and ridicule our faith, but this should not provoke or surprise us. All these demonstrations do not make the truth error, neither do they make error truth. We take our stand firmly and unmovably upon the platform of the Word of God. . . . {TMK 357.3}

So if you want me to accept your teaching, you have to bring it from Gods word.

I do not say that to offend, but to help you gauge my position.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed. That is the "innexplicable" point in their argument.

Sometimes called "a big red flag".

in Christ,

Bob

No, what it shows is how much your human nature has influenced your mind. Look at anything but the ugly truth. For God to drown or burn to death the innocent is outrageous. As I've stated, your view of God makes Hitler look like a choirboy.

I have heard the argument that the commandment should really read "thou shalt not murder", from Doug Batchelor.

Now I am not student of Hebrew, but this makes sense.

If that is the true meaning then it would fit the tenor of scripture.

As to your further comments on a lack of willingness to see truth, remember, you do not have the "sole" copyright on the "character of God". :-)

Mar

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

What is the wrath of God Bob?

Lutz13,

Notice how the boy answers you: Rev and EGW.

Revelation is highly symbolic and EGW is the lesser, limited light. Either way Bob has found an accommodating method to create a god in his likeness after his sinful attributes.

Is it that a person is trying to re-create God in their own image, or that they genuinely do not want to go beyond the restrictions of Scripture Robert?

This statement is very judgemental, please consider that it is not the only possible answer to someone not accepting what you are saying.

It may well be that the person does not agree with you because of statements in Gods words that you have not been able to deal with.

That then means, that your argument is at fault and not the person who resists your argument.

In fact, engaging in a judgemental condemnation of a persons position actually supports the arguemnt "against" your position.

Why?

Because if the truth does not make you loving, kind, humble and patient, then it is not the truth...

Has this "truth" you are laying before us all here, created this change in your heart?

I ask this in love my friend, hoping to stir you to look at the way you "bash" with your "truth"...

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Do you see it in terms like "Justice" "Vengence" and "full penalty of the Law" when you read what is stated at that link?

How did Christ die? What death did Christ die? Did God kill Christ or did God abandon Christ because He became sin, who as Deity, personally knew no sin?

That's how any lost sinner will die too....If not, then God has two ways of dealing with sin. One for Christ and one for everyone else.

God forsook Christ starting in Gethsemane. What did Jesus tell His captors? "This is your hour and the host of darkness." How is that possible? Because God forsook Christ. That's why Jesus said, "My Father, my Father, why have You forsaken me?"

What happens when God leaves? What happened when God abandoned Christ? Right and it ended in the 2nd death.

Deut 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

This is so utterly simple a caveman could understand it! teehe

Two points here.

1. How do you know that it is not satan that is instructing Moses here?

Why do I ask this? Think about it - we seem to have this bias to it being Jesus when it fits this teaching, but satan when it goes against this teaching.

2. Does this neccesarily apply to the punishment of the wicked at the end of time?

Well, it is addressed to the Jews who were under the covenant, and this prophecy would seem to have been fulfilled at AD70.

Now I am not saying that this does not refer to the end of time, but it is insufficient by itself, as it is actually addressed to those under the "covenant" that they broke and recieved punishment for in AD70 (partial punishment).

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Can you point to one place where it says that Satan destroys the wicked and himself and manages to do all that to an appropriate amount of time deserving of that punishment?

Man you are aggravating...and hardheaded too....

Who invented sin?

Answer: Satan!

His own creation destroys him. When God fully abandons Satan, this world under the decay of sin, destroys both Satan and his sympathizers. Comprehend?

Since Satan invented iniquity (one's bent towards self) and since sin destroys, Satan kills himself. Again, so simple a caveman could understand it. It's not calculus.

Rob

Is that a no?

:-)

Mark

[Robert]

The implication is that calculus is a subject difficult to comprehend, when actually it is lucid and simple.

Remember, I am a Math teacher and speak with authority on these matters

Ok Mr. Math teacher...I like Calculus too. Let's say I have a capacitor © and an inductor (L) and a resistor ® all in series. I have a DC voltage source (E) connected through a switch (SW) to these passive components. I want the instantaneous current (i), with respect to time (t). You'll have to use a second order differential equation. Been there, done that. Now let's test the math teacher! teehe

And I know, this is off the subject....

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Why must we assume that fire coming down from heaven is only from satan?

The earth, according to Paul, is decaying...it's falling apart. Natural disasters are everywhere" Hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, famine, volcanoes, etc....And as bad as it is God's holding the winds of strife back.....He's got His finger in the dike....When God's backs off, when our God is not among us, bad things happen. Sin pays in death....

For Pete sakes man, try using your head!!!

Rob

It still comes back to the same problem Rob.

You have not shown that this is indeed an act of Satan and have not shown how everyone will mete the just punishment they deserve, through satans actions...

That to be shown from the Bible.

I know you believe it to be the truth, but the idea that God allows us the consequence of our actions is not in dispute here.

What is in dispute here, is that God will finally destroy all sin, or that satan will do it.

You have presented God as a pacifist and have stated that everyone that does not agree with that view is wrong.

Some of us here do not agree that God is a pacifist (if you do not mind me using the term).

Why?

Look at Jesus cleansing the temple.

That was an act of righteous anger, not the act of a pacifist.

Mark