Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[oldsailor29]

Robert, I just read, "The Two Goats." Wonderful. At the Cleansing of the Sanctuary, at the time of the transference of sins from Jesus to Satan, Jesus stands up and says: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." This is the end of probation for the world, because everyone has made their choice. There's no need to continue. And the true Temples in heaven are the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb..." Rev. 22:21. Amen!

Let's all prepare to meet Jesus!

A scapegoat is an innocent person who takes the blame. I think Jesus fits that description much better than Satan.

[Guest WilloMar]

Oldsailor29, According to Jesus Christ goats are the guilty ones: Matt. 25:32-41. Sheep are the innocent ones: John 10:14-16, 26-28; 21:15-17; Ps. 79:13, 95:7, 100:3. The goats are guilty, including the one representing our Saviour, because He took all of our guilt upon Himself: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us..." 2 Cor. 5:21.

Prepare for the Second Advent.

[oldsailor29]

Oldsailor29, According to Jesus Christ goats are the guilty ones: Matt. 25:32-41. Sheep are the innocent ones: John 10:14-16, 26-28; 21:15-17; Ps. 79:13, 95:7, 100:3. The goats are guilty, including the one representing our Saviour, because He took all of our guilt upon Himself: "For He hath made Him to be sin for us..." 2 Cor. 5:21.

Prepare for the Second Advent.

Yes I know, and I think Jesus does it all. He is the high priest. He is the sacrificial lamb. And He is the scapegoat. I think that putting Satan in the position of scapegoat is giving him a high status, which he does not deserve. I think that idea comes out of the common misconception that Satan is somewhere near equal to Jesus. That is an egregiously false misconception. Satan, representing evil, is nowhere near equal to Jesus, who represents good. The conflict between good and evil is infinitely weighed in the balances in favor of good.

[Robert]

You are neglecting the fact that it was the Lord who struck all the firstborn at midnight. He did protect His own, of course, but He said that He was going to do it (bring the last plague-Ex.11:1; Ex.11:4) and He did do it (Ex.12:29)

He also said that He killed Saul, created evil, brings delusion on folks and host of other bad traits....But a close reading of these things reveals He does not.....

[Twilight]

Try this...

Satan rebels.

God needs to destroy Satan.

But if He does, He will be charged with evil.

So the only way He can be justified in His destruction, is if the whole universe sees the results of sin.

When the full revelation of Satans lies are finally revealed, then and only then will God move to destroy Satan.

The whole argument rests on the idea that it is evil for God to destroy Satan.

Put a rattlesnake in your childrens bedroom.

Watch it threaten your kids.

Now would it be evil to kill the snake?

It would be evil NOT to.

So in this, God would not be performing evil when destroying sin.

God bless,

Mark

[Lutz13]

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Satan rebels.

Yep, he did!

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God needs to destroy Satan.

"God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government."

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But if He does, He will be charged with evil.

Satan spent 4,000 years accusing God of evil. Jesus put an end to that when He showed the universe what He was truly like.

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So the only way He can be justified in His destruction, is if the whole universe sees the results of sin.

Yes, the universe now sees and understands that sin destroys.(God was put up on a cross because of it...)

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When the full revelation of Satans lies are finally revealed, then and only then will God move to destroy Satan.

He won't need to. Satan will destroy himself because of his pride.

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The whole argument rests on the idea that it is evil for God to destroy Satan.

Evil is the absence of good. All good things come from God. Love never takes but always gives. God uses love to bring us to Him. Never force. We accept Him, or we reject Him.

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Put a rattlesnake in your childrens bedroom.

I hate snakes. This argument fails because God loves even Lucifer.

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Now would it be evil to kill the snake?

As I said, I hate snakes. The moment I saw it anywhere I would have stomped on its head.

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD" --- Isaiah 55:9

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It would be evil NOT to.

This still fails, you are using human emotions to deal with a snake. God should never be compared to humans. We are the complete opposite of God. You wouldn't sacrifice your life for someone who absolutely hated you and despised you.

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So in this, God would not be performing evil when destroying sin.

God said do not do evil for evil. But show love and compassion to our enemies. What did Jesus do to the people who spit on and mocked Him? What did Jesus do to His accusers? He prayed for them. He said "Forgive them!"

His actions are far from the actions of this so called god who order men to brutally murder young women and children.

[Lutz13]

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All true my friend -- all true. So it makes you wonder how those who "Accept Ellen White as a prophet" (like Lutz 13 for example) will embrace that "detail" in what God actually shows the prophet.

I often wonder how people much like yourself even have faith in the bible or even Ellen White. Seems like blind faith to me.

[Twilight]

Hello Lutz :-)

You sidestepped an important point.

If a rattle snake was in your childrens bedroom, would it be evil to destroy it?

Mark

[Lutz13]

Hello Lutz :-)

You sidestepped an important point.

If a rattle snake was in your childrens bedroom, would it be evil to destroy it?

Mark

No. But even if it was in my path I would still freak out and stomp on its head! That is me in my current human position. *cringe*

Actually I do not know if it is evil or not. I know snakes probably had a purpose before the fall. So if there was never a fall we would never have to worry about snakes because they would be kind and gentle...

[Lutz13]

Oh..There was a snake in Gods kids garden. He didn't kill it!!

[Guest WilloMar]

Twilight, I was just browsing through the posts, and came upon yours to Lutz about the rattle snake. The decision to kill it or not depends on whom you place your trust. If you place your truth in self, you’ll kill it. If you place your truth in God, it will not be there to kill, because He’ll protect you and your children: “When a man’s ways are pleasing to the Lord, He makes even his enemies (man and beast) to be at peace with him (Pro. 16:7),” “And who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good (1 Pet. 3:13)?” “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments (in heart and mind) and do the things that are pleasing in His sight (1 John 3:22).” You see, “... without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him (Heb. 11:6).”

We must be ready for the Day of the Lord!

[Twilight]

Would it be wrong though Lutz?

To remove a danger from your childrens presence?

[Twilight]

Twilight, I was just browsing through the posts, and came upon yours to Lutz about the rattle snake. The decision to kill it or not depends on whom you place your trust. If you place your truth in self, you’ll kill it. If you place your truth in God, it will not be there to kill, because He’ll protect you and your children: “When a man’s ways are pleasing to the Lord, He makes even his enemies (man and beast) to be at peace with him (Pro. 16:7),” “And who is there to harm you if you prove zealous for what is good (1 Pet. 3:13)?” “And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments (in heart and mind) and do the things that are pleasing in His sight (1 John 3:22).” You see, “... without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him (Heb. 11:6).”

We must be ready for the Day of the Lord!

But God does not replace mans activity with miracles.

So if the snake was there, you would pray about it?

:-)

Mark

[Twilight]

I have a question:

Would Satan ever die from natural means?

He managed to survive the flood, I am sure a nuclear holocaust is probably not beyond his ability to protect himself from.

So how is he going to destroy himself?

Mark

[Lutz13]

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But God does not replace mans activity with miracles.

Did Jesus not turn water into wine after the men had finished drinking it all?

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are trying to say here...?

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So if the snake was there, you would pray about it?

When faced with any danger your first reaction needs to be prayer. Otherwise you lack faith.

[Twilight]

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But God does not replace mans activity with miracles.

Did Jesus not turn water into wine after the men had finished drinking it all?

Perhaps I'm not understanding what you are trying to say here...?

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So if the snake was there, you would pray about it?

When faced with any danger your first reaction needs to be prayer. Otherwise you lack faith.

A simple principle without taking the thread OT.

The lesson must be learned that when God appoints means for a certain work, we are not to neglect these means, put them aside, and then pray and expect that he will work miracles to supply our neglect. To every man God has appointed his work, according to his capacities and capabilities. Wise planning is needed to place each one in his proper sphere in the work, in order that he may obtain an experience which will fit him to bear increased responsibility. {1888 110.1}

In God's dealings, in temporal as well as spiritual things, blessings come to man through the use of means. If the husbandman neglects to till the ground, God works no miracle to make up for his neglect; and when the harvest time comes, he has no crops to gather. As in the natural world, so in the spiritual; God always honors the use of the means he has ordained to do his work. It is by practice that men must be qualified for any emergency that may arise. Men need to become better acquainted with themselves and be discerning in

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regard to their own weak points of character, and then make every effort to strengthen these points, for God makes this their duty. {1888 111.1}

Basically God does not use a miracle when man can do the work...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

I would personally go further than that Lutz. :-)

We are to be in a continual state of communication with God, which indeed is prayer, so that is not the point I am making.

How can we consider destruction of a threat to a family member something to be treated as evil.

The destruction of the snake, will protect the children.

God has to protect his children.

Mark

[Guest WilloMar]

Oh, you mean, Satan is immortal? I thought God only "hath immotalality (1 Tim. 6:15, 16)." Now I'm confused! Thank you!

Prepare to meet God!

[Lutz13]

Would it be wrong though Lutz?

To remove a danger from your childrens presence?

I am really sorry but you are not making any sense with this. This snake you mention represents Satan. You are saying that Satan is destroyed by God and by doing so removes the harm.

Wouldn't you as a human kill the snake when you first saw it? You are saying it wouldn't be evil to do so.

What did God do when He first saw the snake? He didn't kill it did He? If you notice, that snake has already taken a bite and has done damage. Instead of killing the snake, God sent some anti-venom down to those who would accept it. Now why didn't God kill it?

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. ---Isaiah 55:8

Since we are on the topic of snakes. Those snakes in the wilderness during the exodus. What caused the snakes to bite? They were permitted to bite because of their "lack of faith!" What cured them? The serpent that was lifted up.(an idol that God created something good out of) Just like that serpent that was lifted up, Jesus was also lifted up for us to look at for the anti-venom.

Also keep in mind, those who had faith were never bitten anyways.

[Twilight]

In fact, let us make the question even simpler.

Is there any created being in the universe that is more powerful than Satan?

No...

So who is going to destroy him?

Mankind?

Mark

[Twilight]

Lutz :-)

When the snake first appeared it was a beautiful winged beast that deceived Eve.

When satan decieved in heaven, he still had his wings.

It is only when he revealed his venom that he could be destroyed.

A traitor has to be shown to be a traitor to be condemned.

Mark

[Guest WilloMar]

God has to protect His family??? THROUGH YOU!!! God help us!

[Lutz13]

In fact, let us make the question even simpler.

Is there any created being in the universe that is more powerful than Satan?

No...

So who is going to destroy him?

Mankind?

Mark

Satan is nothing without Gods protection. God says

"Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? But you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you." ---Ezek. 28:9

[Twilight]

Do you think mankind can destroy Satan?

How did he survive the flood?

These are good questions to ask, because those that propose that Satan destroys himself, have to ask how that will be possible?

Only one who is more powerful then him can destroy him.

Mark

[Twilight]

So Satan is covered by Gods grace?