Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[oldsailor29]

You're not listing....

I said Jesus is the one that entered into the OC with Israel. So even today you have two covenants: the old and the new.

All unbelievers are under the old....Believers are under the new. Now some believers have sidetracked from the gospel and have entered the old covenant. This is a subtle form of legalism.

Rob

You are correct. I misread. I'm not used to people agreeing with me.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Robert

You're not listing....

I said Jesus is the one that entered into the OC with Israel. So even today you have two covenants: the old and the new.

All unbelievers are under the old....Believers are under the new. Now some believers have sidetracked from the gospel and have entered the old covenant. This is a subtle form of legalism.

Rob

You are correct. I misread. I'm not used to people agreeing with me.

Well ... if you are going to stick around here .... START getting used to is. Ha ha

[Robert]

Good to see you here, Redwood. Hope you'll hang around.

[oldsailor29]

Well ... if you are going to stick around here .... START getting used to is. Ha ha

Yeah, and i guess i'll have to get used to people saying hey all and day amm?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."--2 Samuel 24:1

Quote:

Now Satan stood up against Isreael, and moved David to number Israel.--1 Chronicles 21:1

[Robert]

Quote:

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."--2 Samuel 24:1

Quote:

Now Satan stood up against Isreael, and moved David to number Israel.--1 Chronicles 21:1

Who done it?

I love this stuff.....

[Robert]

God's anger is passive and it can't be compared to human wrath.... God leaves and the old boy, Satan, comes in and starts his stuff. In this case he worked through David's nature to get him to number Israel. Since God is sovereign He assumes the fault for this sin until the day of atonement....IT's all about the two goats. To assume something is not to be guilty....

[Guest WilloMar]

What a blessing to have the Sabbath to rest our weary souls. Many in our church view the Sabbath exactly that way. They’ll give a sigh of relief and say, “It feels so good to have today to rest after a hard week of work.” But it’s actually a little more than that, right?

“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: In it thou shalt not do any work….For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: Wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Ex. 20:8-11)

Ellen G. White, when she was “carried” into the holy of holies in the temple of heaven, observed the Ten Commandments: “The four on the first table shone brighter than the other six. But the fourth, the Sabbath commandment, shone above them all…” (EW 32, 33) Why would the Sabbath Commandment be the most important commandment of all? Is a day more important than the command, “Thou shalt have no other gods before Me?” Or, “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image…? Or, “Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain…?” No, of course not! So, why did the Sabbath Commandment shine brightest? Let’s listen to what the angel said to Sister White in 1T 76: “It is the only one of the ten which defines the living God who created the heavens and the earth and all things that are therein.” The Fourth Commandment is the only Commandment identifying the true God as the Creator. Thus it distinguishes the true God from “the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4)” ---- the destroyer. Sister White explains further in LS 101: “…for the Sabbath was set apart to be kept in honor of God’s holy name.”

What’s in a name? Much! Especially God’s Name, because His Name is His Seal ---- Rev. 14:1: God’s NAME in their foreheads. Rev. 7:2, 3: God’s SEAL in their foreheads. Rev. 22:4: God’s NAME in their foreheads. Rev. 9:4: God’s SEAL in their foreheads. “This Scripture (Rev. 14:1-4)…,” sister White wrote, “…represents the character.” (7 BC 977, 978) In other words, God’s name is His seal which is His character. Incidentally, God’s Glory also is His Character: “By beholding Christ, by talking of Him, by beholding the loveliness of His character we become changed. Changed from glory to glory. And what is glory? Character, ---- and he becomes changed from character to character. Thus we see that there is a work of purification that goes on by beholding Jesus.” (SD 337)

What about he, who is the opposite of the Creator ---- the destroyer? His name must be his mark, too ---- “... if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead…” Rev. 14:9. Now continuing with verse 11: “…they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” The mark of his name is Satan’s destructive character of hate and destruction because that’s who he is.

Are there people receiving the mark of the beast who worship on the Sabbath (compare Ezek. 8:15-9:6)? Yes! If you’re worshiping on the Sabbath believing that God the Creator kills and destroys, you have the right day, but the wrong god, you are bowing to the east worshiping the sun like they of Ezekiel. And you are receiving the mind of the deceiver and destroyer Satan, the god of this world. (2 Cor. 4:4)

We must prepare to welcome our Lord Jesus Christ.

[oldsailor29]

Quote:

Again the anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah."--2 Samuel 24:1

Quote:

Now Satan stood up against Isreael, and moved David to number Israel.--1 Chronicles 21:1

This is easy. This text in 2 Samuel was written by a Yahwist, while the other text in 1 Chronicles was written by an Elohist. But to answer the question, which one is right, the simple answer is both.

[Gail]

Now I'm puzzled...

Revelation 20:7-9:

When the 1,000 years are over, Satan will be set free from his prison. He will go out to fool the nations. He will gather them from the four corners of the earth. He will bring Gog and Magog together for battle.

Their troops are as many as the grains of sand on the seashore. They marched across the whole earth. They surrounded the place where God's people were camped. It was the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and burned them up.

It doesn't sound to me like the sinners are left to the effects of their sinfulness, as some are saying. The fire is coming down from heaven. The KJV says that the fire is from God out of heaven.

I would hate to see what would become of the New Jerusalem if God does NOT intervene...

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear Gail,

Nothing would happen to those within the New Jerusalem, because they are all immortal. They could walk in the sun and not be burned like those who were cast into the fiery furnace (Dan. 3:19-25).

Don't forget, Satan brings fire down from heaven, as Ellen White said, "To prove he is God." Now, I'm not saying that after the 1,000 years and the wicked are awakened from their death/sleep, and surround the City of God. Now I'm not saying that Satan himself brings fire down to destroy himself and the rest of the wicked, but in their warfare against God and His people in the holy city, they actually destroy themselves. Sin destroys! And to say that God destroys is to say that He is sin! God Forbid!

We must get ready for the soon coming of Jesus.

[Guest WilloMar]

I really can’t understand how anyone can believe that the Creator God destroys. “Because the Bible says He does!” So, with that reasoning, those ignorant prophets before the death of Christ on the cross knew more about God’s character, and His adversary’s character, than all of the holy angels and all of the holy beings living on all of the unfallen worlds in the universe. It was this ignorance that God winked, or over-looked (Acts 17:30). In the Desire of Ages, page 758, Sister White wrote: “Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds. The archapostate had so clothed himself with deception that even Holy beings had not understood his principles. They had not clearly seen the nature of his rebellion.” And in 5T 98 she says: “God and Satan never work in co-partnership. The testimonies either bear the signet (seal) of God or that of Satan. A good tree cannot bring forth corrupt fruit; neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. By their fruit ye shall know them. God has spoken.” Isn’t that clear???

Prepare to meet your maker.

[Lutz13]

Dear Gail,

Nothing would happen to those within the New Jerusalem, because they are all immortal. They could walk in the sun and not be burned like those who were cast into the fiery furnace (Dan. 3:19-25).

Don't forget, Satan brings fire down from heaven, as Ellen White said, "To prove he is God." Now, I'm not saying that after the 1,000 years and the wicked are awakened from their death/sleep, and surround the City of God. Now I'm not saying that Satan himself brings fire down to destroy himself and the rest of the wicked, but in their warfare against God and His people in the holy city, they actually destroy themselves. Sin destroys! And to say that God destroys is to say that He is sin! God Forbid!

We must get ready for the soon coming of Jesus.

[Robert]

It doesn't sound to me like the sinners are left to the effects of their sinfulness, as some are saying. The fire is coming down from heaven. The KJV says that the fire is from God out of heaven.

Not their sinfulness, but the effects of sin on this world. When God removes Himself...abandons the earth...it comes apart.

Besides, in Job, God is blamed for the fire when it is clearly Satan:

Job 1:10 You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!" 12 And the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person." So Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

13 Now there was a day when his sons and daughters were eating and drinking wine in their oldest brother's house; 14 and a messenger came to Job and said, "The oxen were plowing and the donkeys feeding beside them, 15 when the Sabeans raided them and took them away--indeed they have killed the servants with the edge of the sword; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" 16 While he was still speaking, another also came and said, "The fire of God fell from heaven and burned up the sheep and the servants, and consumed them; and I alone have escaped to tell you!" 1

[Robert]

Ezekiel 28:18 By the multitude of your iniquities, in the unrighteousness of your trade, you profaned your sanctuaries. So I brought out fire from within you; it consumed you, and I turned you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all who saw you.

[Gail]

Interesting...

How do you explain the Flood? Did the rain come because God had withdrawn His mercy from the Earth's inhabitants?

Did it come from Satan?

[BobRyan]

Yes -- some say that planets will naturally flood themselves with water for 40 days then take about a year to "dry out" if not somehow stopped from doing that.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".

False! You are placing evil attributes onto God.

Nope -- that is just me "reading the text" of scripture without choosing to bend it to fit a pet idea.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

What most SDAs do not believe is that Jesus fulfilled His law by restating it,

.

Because there is no such thing as the mythical "FULFILL law by merely RESTATING it".

The only way law is fulfilled is by complying with it's specifications. Obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Hey Robert - remember "this"?

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

While it is true that in some cases God uses the "rod of man" to punish others -- as when Babylon slaughters the people of Jersusalem and takes many off as slaves... it is NOT true that "Babylon caused the world wide flood" NOR is it the case that God tricked Satan into creating a world wide flood.

In fact Satan himself was in fear for his own life during the flood.

As the many details in the EGW quote above -- fit so perfectly with the details of Rev 20 and Rev 14 -- so they both combine to show an action being done by God "Himself" and in fact "God alone" -- starting with the resurrection of all the wicked dead at the end of the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Robert - question for you. In your desperate state of rejecting Ellen White - do you at least admit that the quote above from Ellen White does not actually agree with your position?

Surely as someone that does not subscribe to Ellen White's writings - you can "at the very least" admit when there is a glaring difference between something she said and what you actually believe - can you not?

If so -- then I think you and I actually AGREE on something here. Namely -- that what she is saying in that oh-so explicit text about the lake of Fire - does not agree with your views.

(It is not often that Robert and I agree on something - so when the opportunity presents itself I like to see it admitted.)

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Robert

False! You are placing evil attributes onto God. [/quote']

Nope -- that is just me "reading the text" of scripture without choosing to bend it to fit a pet idea.

in Christ,

Bob

I would like to say I am happy that you are ok with your version(which is a book full of contradictions). But I am honestly disappointed and sad.

How you see the slaughtering of woman, children and theft as unconditional love is beyond me. That in itself is a contradiction. I'm sorry to see that you want your enemies to be burned and to suffer. I just pray I am no where near you when the Spirit of God is once again withdrawn from this world. I'm sorry if that hurts you, but the truth is never popular, and it may sting.

[Gail]

Even in cases like Revelation 9 where God gives the key (permission) to destroy to the "star fallen from heaven", that would raise the question, "Is God responsible for the destroying work that He gives human agents to do?"

In verses 13 onward, the angel actually commands the releasing of the 4 angels who were prepared to do the destroying work. Even then the Bible says that the people (on the receiving end) were unrepentant of their idolatry and other sins.

To me that speaks of a cleansing work that had the approval of God. It was accomplishing His purpose.

[Lutz13]

Even in cases like Revelation 9 where God gives the key (permission) to destroy to the "star fallen from heaven", that would raise the question, "Is God responsible for the destroying work that He gives human agents to do?"

In verses 13 onward, the angel actually commands the releasing of the 4 angels who were prepared to do the destroying work. Even then the Bible says that the people (on the receiving end) were unrepentant of their idolatry and other sins.

To me that speaks of a cleansing work that had the approval of God. It was accomplishing His purpose.

God can't protect those that refuse His protection.

[BobRyan]

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".