Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

You make a good point about the glory of His coming destroying the wicked, it gave me pause for thought.

Twilight.

[BobRyan]

Yes Bob. You keep spamming that cluster. I get it already. Shall I spam her other statements that do not agree?

[Robert]

it makes you wonder how those who "Accept Ellen White as a prophet" (like Lutz 13 for example) will embrace that "detail" in what God actually shows the prophet.

in Christ,

Bob

Because her works...her writings...are not infallible. She states this. Also she had "limited" light...a "glimmer" of light. We must go to the Bible and the Bible only for all doctrinal issues. Who said that? EGW!

[Robert]

Will people today really engage in "pick and choose" with the Word of God just to avoid some inconvenient revelation in what Ellen White says about the future acts OF GOD in dealing with the wicked??Bob

Will extremist keep pushing EGW down everyone's throats? Will they keep turning every subject into a EGW debate? Yes, they will because that's their pacifier!!!

[Robert]

There is no question but that God hands Job over to Satan just as the text says in Job 1 and 2.

[Guest WilloMar]

Does God have anything to do with Fire?

MM 87, 88: “...Satan will come in to deceive if possible the very elect. He claims to be Christ...He will cause fire to come down from heaven in the sight of men to prove that he is God. (Rev. 13:13) We must stand barricaded by the truths of the Bible. The canopy of truth is the only canopy under which we can stand safely.”

Will we be deceived by Satan's fire?

All truths come from Jesus. You want to see how the righteous shall live? Look to Jesus. You want to see how the wicked will die? Look to Jesus.

DA 799: “Christ must die, as every transgressor of the law must die if he continues in sin.”

The fire of God didn't devour Him, did it?

Ev. 150: “…hold the attention of the people by presenting before them the truth as it is in Jesus. Keep before them the cross of Calvary. What called for the death of Christ? The transgression of the law.” (See DA 25, 26.)

GC 36: “But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejecter of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

Prepare to meet your God.

[Robert]

GC 36: “But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint [God himself] is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejector of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

TU TU

bingo! Exactly...Thank you!

[Guest WilloMar]

Robert, You know the message of the angel of Revelation 18! Wonderful! Now, we must get it out to prepare God's people for Christ's soon return, because how can we receive God's character if we don't know what it is.

Prepare to welcome Jesus!

[Guest WilloMar]

Why didn’t the Jews recognize Jesus as their Christ? They had the Scriptures; why couldn’t they identify the Messiah (Moshiach)? Was it because Christ Jesus didn’t meet their test from the god of the Old Testament?

I found this in Judaism 101: Moshiach: The Messiah ---- What about Jesus?

“Jews do not believe that Jesus was the moshiach (Messiah). Assuming that he existed, and assuming that the Christian scriptures are accurate in describing him (both matters that are debatable), he simply did not fulfill the mission of the moshiach as it is described in the biblical passages cited above. Jesus did not do any of the things that the scriptures said the messiah would do.

“On the contrary, another Jew born about a century later came far closer to fulfilling the messianic ideal than Jesus did. His name was Shimeon ben Kosiba, known as Bar Kokhba (son of a star), and he was a charismatic, brilliant, but brutal warlord. Rabbi Akiba, one of the greatest scholars in Jewish history, believed that Bar Kokhba was the moshiach. Bar Kokhba fought a war against the Roman Empire, catching the Tenth Legion by surprise and retaking Jerusalem. He resumed sacrifices at the site of the Temple and made plans to rebuild the Temple. He established a provisional government and began to issue coins in its name. This is what the Jewish people were looking for in a moshiach; Jesus clearly does not fit into this mold. Ultimately, however, the Roman Empire crushed his revolt and killed Bar Kokhba. After his death, all acknowledged that he was not the moshiach.

“Throughout Jewish history, there have been many people who have claimed to be the moshiach, or whose followers have claimed that they were the moshiach: Shimeon Bar Kokhba, Shabbatai Tzvi, Jesus, and many others too numerous to name. Leo Rosten reports some very entertaining accounts under the heading False Messiahs in his book, The Joys of Yiddish. But all of these people died without fulfilling the mission of the moshiach; therefore, none of them were the moshiach. The moshiach and the Olam Ha-Ba lie in the future, not in the past.”

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: WilloMar

GC 36: “But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint [God himself] is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejector of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown."

TU TU

bingo! Exactly...Thank you!

I quoted that one as well. But it got ignored because it is contrary to God burning people alive. That reminds me...What other force burned people alive on a daily basis because they were "heretics"?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

TU TU

bingo! Exactly...Thank you!

I quoted that one as well. But it got ignored because it is contrary to God burning people alive. That reminds me...What other force burned people alive on a daily basis because they were "heretics"?

Sorry, I missed it....

Robster

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

I quoted that one as well. But it got ignored because it is contrary to God burning people alive. That reminds me...What other force burned people alive on a daily basis because they were "heretics"?

Sorry, I missed it....

Robster

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Easy my friend. :-)

This is not something personal, just a thorough examination of this idea.

God bless,

Mark

Yeah I know, I do get a bit excited when I shouldn't. God is taking me through Romans 7 right now helping me to understand that I am wrestling with my flesh. I wish not to say things to offend people, yet my carnal mind wants to condemn you all for not seeing things my way. I need to remember to choose the Spiritual mind that is in me and not the carnal.

[Twilight]

Here is the conclusion of the matter for me:

God will allow the consequences of the sinners actions to mount against him.

But there comes a point of judgement when God will destroy, and will use other to destroy.

Here is the clear testimony on the matter (particularly read the highlighted sections:

War in Old Testament Times

The Lord commanded Moses to vex the Midianites, and smite them, because they had vexed Israel with their wiles, wherewith they had beguiled them to transgress the commandments of God. {2SM 332.1}

The Lord commanded Moses to avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites, and then he should be gathered to his people. Moses commanded the men of war to prepare for battle against the Midianites. And they warred against them as the Lord commanded, and slew all the males, but they took the women and children captives. Balaam was slain with the Midianites. "And Moses, and Eleazar, the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp. And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle. And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? Behold, these caused the children of Israel through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord" (Num. 31:13-16). {2SM 332.2}

Moses commanded the men of war to destroy the

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women and male children. Balaam had sold the children of Israel for a reward, and he perished with the people whose favor he had obtained at the sacrifice of twenty-four thousand of the Israelites. {2SM 332.3}

The Lord is regarded as cruel by many in requiring His people to make war with other nations. They say that it is contrary to His benevolent character. But He who made the world, and formed man to dwell upon the earth, has unlimited control over all the works of His hands, and it is His right to do as He pleases, and what He pleases with the work of His hands. Man has no right to say to his Maker, Why doest Thou thus? There is no injustice in His character. He is the Ruler of the world, and a large portion of His subjects have rebelled against His authority, and have trampled upon His law. He has bestowed upon them liberal blessings, and surrounded them with everything needful, yet they have bowed to images of wood and stone, silver and gold, which their own hands have made. They teach their children that these are the Gods that give them life and health, and make their lands fruitful, and give them riches and honor. They scorn the God of Israel. They despise His people, because their works are righteous. "The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works" (Ps. 14:1). God has borne with them until they filled up the measure of their iniquity, and then He has brought upon them swift destruction. He has used His people as instruments of His wrath, to punish wicked nations, who have vexed them, and seduced them into idolatry. {2SM 333.1}

A family picture was presented before me. A part of the children seem anxious to learn and obey the requirements of the father, while the others trample upon his authority, and seem to exult in showing contempt of his family government. They share the benefits of their father's house, and are constantly receiving of his bounty. They are wholly dependent upon him for all they receive, yet are not grateful, but conduct themselves proudly, as though all the favors they received of their indulgent parent were supplied by themselves. The father notices all the disrespectful

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acts of his disobedient, ungrateful children, yet he bears with them. {2SM 333.2}

At length, these rebellious children go still further, and seek to influence and lead to rebellion those members of their father's family who have hitherto been faithful. Then all the dignity and authority of the father is called into action, and he expels from his house the rebellious children, who have not only abused his love and blessings themselves, but tried to subvert the remaining few who had submitted to the wise and judicious laws of their father's household. {2SM 334.1}

For the sake of the few who are loyal, whose happiness was exposed to the seditious influence of the rebellious members of his household, he separates from his family his undutiful children, while at the same time he labors to bring closer to himself the remaining faithful and loyal ones. All would honor the wise and just course of such a parent, in punishing most severely his undutiful, rebellious children. {2SM 334.2}

God has dealt thus with His children. But man, in his blindness, will overlook the abominations of the ungodly, and pass by unnoticed the continual ingratitude and rebellion and heaven-daring sins of those who trample upon God's law and defy His authority. They do not stop here, but exult in subverting His people, and influencing them by their wiles to transgress and show open contempt for the wise requirements of Jehovah. {2SM 334.3}

Some can see only the destruction of God's enemies, which looks to them unmerciful and severe. They do not look upon the other side. But let everlasting thanks be given, that impulsive, changeable man, with all his boasted benevolence, is not the disposer and controller of events. "The tender mercies of the wicked are cruel" (Prov. 12:10). --Spiritual Gifts, vol. 4, pp. 49-52. {2SM 334.4}

[Twilight]

Quote:

Easy my friend. :-)

This is not something personal, just a thorough examination of this idea.

God bless,

Mark

Yeah I know, I do get a bit excited when I shouldn't. God is taking me through Romans 7 right now helping me to understand that I am wrestling with my flesh. I wish not to say things to offend people, yet my carnal mind wants to condemn you all for not seeing things my way. I need to remember to choose the Spiritual mind that is in me and not the carnal.

We all have the same issue my friend, which is why we need to learn to plead the merits of Jesus...

[oldsailor29]

God is sovereign creator over all life and death, good and evil, righteousness and sinfulness, reward and punishment. Yes, death is the natural outcome of sin. God created all natural outcomes and set it up that way. God is keeping all of us alive today. If He stopped intervening, we would all die immediately. Is death the natural result of sin, or is it an act of God? The answer is yes. It is both.

[Lutz13]

Quote:

He has used His people as instruments of His wrath

I have trouble with this. From a biblical standpoint, we know that Gods wrath is withdrawing His spirit from an individual. Paul explains this in the first chapter of Romans. The wrath she speaks of, sounds like human wrath. I have to side with Paul.

Quote:

They say that it is contrary to His benevolent character.

I also have issues here... I'll try and explain why.

Quote:

Mental ability and genius are not character, for these are often possessed by those who have the very opposite of a good character. Reputation is not character. True character is a quality of the soul, revealing itself in the conduct. {Mar 223.2}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

If the world knew the principles of the laws of God's government, if they obeyed his commandments, they would discern the character of God in the law , and would no longer be at enmity with God. But turning from the law of God, men have no means of discerning his character, and the attributes of the character of Satan are cherished and cultivated. After Jesus told his disciples what manner of treatment they might expect from the world, he said, "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended." That is, in receiving persecution from the hands of the world, they were not to feel that God was dealing with them unjustly, in permitting them to be thus treated. Jesus continued: "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." Why is it that men reach this state of deception? Why is it they walk so contrary to all the laws of God? Jesus answers: "And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 12}

See, now I am a bit confused in what she writes. She says God is allowed to do whatever He wants...Which yes, it is true. He does have that right, I won't argue that. It kind of reminds me of "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?" -- Psalm 8:4 Of the trillions of worlds out there in our galaxy. God could have just snapped His fingers and ours would have been gone. He could have reprogrammed every mind out there so that they would never know. He didn't though did He?

When Satan rebelled against Him. God knew it would happen. Yet He still created him. Why? Because God gives the gift of free will. It is contrary to who God is. He doesn't make robots. It goes against His character. But we know He could have if He wanted to.

Ellen White says that in Gods law, we see His character. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. His counsel stands forever. Jesus came to reveal the Fathers character. When Jesus was asked by His disciples if they should bring fire down on those people like Elijah did. Jesus rebuked them and said they do not know what spirit they are of.

When people tell me it is just how God was in the old testament, I will never ever accept that. Not until God Himself tells me.

Quote:

Here is the conclusion of the matter for me:

So it seems you have made your mind up. So we will have to agree to disagree. Thank you for your comments, and adding to the discussion. I have learned a lot because of the digging I had to keep doing. So, much appreciated.

[Twilight]

Quote:

He has used His people as instruments of His wrath

I have trouble with this. From a biblical standpoint, we know that Gods wrath is withdrawing His spirit from an individual. Paul explains this in the first chapter of Romans. The wrath she speaks of, sounds like human wrath. I have to side with Paul.

Quote:

They say that it is contrary to His benevolent character.

I also have issues here... I'll try and explain why.

Quote:

Mental ability and genius are not character, for these are often possessed by those who have the very opposite of a good character. Reputation is not character. True character is a quality of the soul, revealing itself in the conduct. {Mar 223.2}

The glory of God is His character. . . . This character was revealed in the life of Christ. That He might by His own example condemn sin in the flesh, He took upon Himself the likeness of sinful flesh. Constantly He beheld the character of God; constantly He revealed this character to the world. Christ desires His followers to reveal in their lives this same character. {TMK 131.3}

If the world knew the principles of the laws of God's government, if they obeyed his commandments, they would discern the character of God in the law , and would no longer be at enmity with God. But turning from the law of God, men have no means of discerning his character, and the attributes of the character of Satan are cherished and cultivated. After Jesus told his disciples what manner of treatment they might expect from the world, he said, "These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended." That is, in receiving persecution from the hands of the world, they were not to feel that God was dealing with them unjustly, in permitting them to be thus treated. Jesus continued: "They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service." Why is it that men reach this state of deception? Why is it they walk so contrary to all the laws of God? Jesus answers: "And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me." {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 12}

See, now I am a bit confused in what she writes. She says God is allowed to do whatever He wants...Which yes, it is true. He does have that right, I won't argue that. It kind of reminds me of "What is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man that You visit him?" -- Psalm 8:4 Of the trillions of worlds out there in our galaxy. God could have just snapped His fingers and ours would have been gone. He could have reprogrammed every mind out there so that they would never know. He didn't though did He?

When Satan rebelled against Him. God knew it would happen. Yet He still created him. Why? Because God gives the gift of free will. It is contrary to who God is. He doesn't make robots. It goes against His character. But we know He could have if He wanted to.

Ellen White says that in Gods law, we see His character. God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. His counsel stands forever. Jesus came to reveal the Fathers character. When Jesus was asked by His disciples if they should bring fire down on those people like Elijah did. Jesus rebuked them and said they do not know what spirit they are of.

When people tell me it is just how God was in the old testament, I will never ever accept that. Not until God Himself tells me.

Quote:

Here is the conclusion of the matter for me:

So it seems you have made your mind up. So we will have to agree to disagree. Thank you for your comments, and adding to the discussion. I have learned a lot because of the digging I had to keep doing. So, much appreciated.

Hello Lutz :-)

I cannot step outside of inspiration on this one.

I needed an answer to the question of why God used men to carry out His judgements and I found this.

I also found the rationale.

This is the only explanation that fits with Scripture.

The idea that God does not use men to carry out His judgements goes against scripture and against this plain statement.

When she was shown that this is the case, then we have a problem.

We can either reject her inspiration, or admit that we do not have the full picture.

I think it is simple.

God does indeed allow men to bear the fruits of their sin, that is obvious.

But it comes to a point, where He does pass judgement and destroy, taking personal responsibility for that destruction.

When we take it too far, we have to remove Gods judgement from the equation, that does not agree with Scripture.

Twilight.

[Twilight]

Lutz,

If we take a look at this statement again, much of which you have shared is indeed correct, but it is just taken too far.

There comes a time when God does cast out the disobedient children, that is the point when they are now trying to corrupt the good children.

By God destroying those wicked children, he protects the good, how is that evil?

A family picture was presented before me. A part of the children seem anxious to learn and obey the requirements of the father, while the others trample upon his authority, and seem to exult in showing contempt of his family government. They share the benefits of their father's house, and are constantly receiving of his bounty. They are wholly dependent upon him for all they receive, yet are not grateful, but conduct themselves proudly, as though all the favors they received of their indulgent parent were supplied by themselves. The father notices all the disrespectful

334

acts of his disobedient, ungrateful children, yet he bears with them. {2SM 333.2}

At length, these rebellious children go still further, and seek to influence and lead to rebellion those members of their father's family who have hitherto been faithful. Then all the dignity and authority of the father is called into action, and he expels from his house the rebellious children, who have not only abused his love and blessings themselves, but tried to subvert the remaining few who had submitted to the wise and judicious laws of their father's household. {2SM 334.1}

For the sake of the few who are loyal, whose happiness was exposed to the seditious influence of the rebellious members of his household, he separates from his family his undutiful children, while at the same time he labors to bring closer to himself the remaining faithful and loyal ones. All would honor the wise and just course of such a parent, in punishing most severely his undutiful, rebellious children. {2SM 334.2}

It is simple, we are the clay, He is the potter.

He has the right to destroy the clay.

But the clay does not have the right to destroy His clay.

God bless,

Twilight

[Gail]

This seems simple to me... Just MHO...

It's best to let God take care of it. He has given us enough evidence that He will- "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord"

We are not to take vengeance on others because He KNOWS the situation and He has promised to handle it.

The Bible talks about God's wrath and a day of God's wrath. If we were to take that hope away from the people then why should we bother believing any other promise He gives us?

God is FOR me, the Bible says. He cares for His own AND He will reward evil what it deserves.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

There is no question but that God hands Job over to Satan just as the text says in Job 1 and 2.

Wow and you came up with this on your own?

[BobRyan]

This is the only explanation that fits with Scripture.

The idea that God does not use men to carry out His judgements goes against scripture and against this plain statement.

When she was shown that this is the case, then we have a problem.

We can either reject her inspiration, or admit that we do not have the full picture.

I think it is simple.

God does indeed allow men to bear the fruits of their sin, that is obvious.

But it comes to a point, where He does pass judgement and destroy, taking personal responsibility for that destruction.

When we take it too far, we have to remove Gods judgement from the equation, that does not agree with Scripture.

Twilight.

Indeed the logical fallacy of "either-or" fails every time.

It is the "both-and" solution every time!

In some cases God allows man to be the instrument of punishment for others.

In some cases it is "self" that is the instrument of punishment.

In some cases it is Satan.

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".

"either-or" wooden filters just don't work.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This is the only explanation that fits with Scripture.

The idea that God does not use men to carry out His judgements goes against scripture and against this plain statement.

When she was shown that this is the case, then we have a problem.

We can either reject her inspiration, or admit that we do not have the full picture.

I think it is simple.

God does indeed allow men to bear the fruits of their sin, that is obvious.

But it comes to a point, where He does pass judgement and destroy, taking personal responsibility for that destruction.

When we take it too far, we have to remove Gods judgement from the equation, that does not agree with Scripture.

Twilight.

Indeed the logical fallacy of "either-or" fails every time.

It is the "both-and" solution every time!

In some cases God allows man to be the instrument of punishment for others.

In some cases it is "self" that is the instrument of punishment.

In some cases it is Satan.

And in cases like the flood, Sodom and Gomorah, Korah, Achan, the idolaters a Sinai, Annanias and Saphira, the Lake of Fire ... it is "God Himself".

"either-or" wooden filters just don't work.

in Christ,

Bob

We are in agreement Bob. :-)

Twilight

[Twilight]

It has been a good discussion however, it has enabled me to establish some points I was not clear on before.

Of course, we must never stand still and if there is more light to this subject than I have, I pray the Lord brings it to me.

Twilight

[Guest WilloMar]

Spiritual Gifts 4A; chapter 30 ---- Fiery Serpents

“And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, ‘We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord that he take away the serpents from us.’ And Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said unto Moses, ‘Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.’ And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass he lived.” Num. 21:6-9 {4aSG 40.3}

“The murmurings of the children of Israel were unreasonable, and the unreasonable always go to extremes. They uttered falsehoods in saying that they had no bread nor water. They had both given them by a miracle of God's mercy. To punish them for their ingratitude, and complaining against God, the Lord permitted fiery serpents to bite them. They were called fiery, because their bite produced painful inflammation, and speedy death. The Israelites, up to this time, had been preserved from these serpents in the wilderness, by a continual miracle; for the wilderness through which they traveled was infested with poisonous serpents.” {4aSG 41.1}

(Sister White writes like a true prophet for her time. This book, “Spiritual Gifts,” vol. 4A, was published in 1864. She does receive more light as she progresses in her ministry. So, to which God is she referring? There are certain truths that must be remembered when dealing with which God is which. There’s a Life God, and a death god; there’s a Truth God, and a lying god; there’s a Loving God, and a hating god; there’s a Saving God, and a tempting god; etc. The truth is, the Creator God gives only good and perfect gifts, and He never changes. James 1:17. He will never alter His words. Ps. 89:34. He will never “lie,” or have to “repent.” Num. 23:19. And, “I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it...” Eccles. 3:14. Also: “When a man’s ways please the Lord, He maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him.” Pro. 16:7.)

“The Israelites were terrified, and humbled because of the serpents, and confessed their sin in murmuring. Moses was directed to erect the brazen serpent upon a pole, and if those who were bitten looked upon that they should be healed. Here the Israelites were required to do something. They must look upon the brazen serpent if they would live. Many had died by the bite of the serpents. When Moses raised the serpent upon the pole, some had no faith that merely looking at that would heal them, and they died. Mothers, fathers, brothers and sisters, were all anxiously engaged in helping their suffering, dying relatives and friends, to fix their languid eyes upon the serpent. If they could only once look while fainting and dying, they revived and were healed of all the effects of their poisonous wounds. There was no virtue in the serpent of brass to cause such a change immediately in those who looked upon it. The healing virtue received by their looking upon the serpent was derived from God alone. He chose in his wisdom this manner to display his power. It was the faith of the people in the provision made which was acceptable to God. By this simple means the people were made sensible that God had permitted these serpents to afflict them, because of their murmurings, and lack of faith in him. If they would obey God they had no reason to fear, for he would be their friend, and preserve them from dangers to which they were continually exposed in the wilderness.” {4aSG 42.1}

(The true God often takes sinful practices and brings righteousness out from them, as you’ll see in the next paragraph.)

“The brazen serpent, lifted upon a pole, illustrates the Son of God, who was to die upon the cross. The people who are suffering from the effects of sin can find hope and salvation alone in the provision God has made. As the Israelites saved their lives by looking upon the brazen serpent, so sinners can look to Christ and live. Unlike the brazen serpent, he has virtue in himself and power to heal the suffering, repenting, believing sinner. Christ says of himself, “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.” {4a SG 43}