Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

Like Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.

The issue was Abraham's faith. First Abraham tried to help God produce "the child of promise" (Issac).

You see God promised Abraham that through Issac your seed will be as the stars of the sky. So if there was no "promised son" there would be no offspring. Well we know the rest of the story....God waited until it was impossible for Abraham and Sarah to produce a child and then He performed a miracle.

Years later God tested Abraham's faith: He asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac. Why? Was God actually going to let Abraham kill his own son? No! Then why? Because now Abraham took God at his word. If God said something it was a done deal.

Thus Abraham reasoned: Since God does as He says then if I kill Issac God will have to resurrect him if my descendants are to number the stars of the sky.

So like I said it was a test to see if Abraham took God at His word. God would not allow Abraham to do harm to Issac that was never an issue.

[Robert]

What happens when God retreats? The world falls apart. When God retreats His protection goes also.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger [note in the following that God's anger...God's wrath, unlike our anger, is passive. God removes Himself from those who reject Him. That's because agape cannot force...it cannot coerce.] My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, [the result?] and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What happens when God retreats? The world falls apart. When God retreats His protection goes also.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger [note in the following that God's anger...God's wrath, unlike our anger, is passive. God removes Himself from those who reject Him. That's because agape cannot force...it cannot coerce.] My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, [the result?] and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

Romanas 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them over [He removed Himself] to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen....32 who, knowing the just judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

God removes Himself. This results in trouble, which results in death, but God is not the killer....

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Like Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.

The issue was Abraham's faith. First Abraham tried to help God produce "the child of promise" (Issac).

You see God promised Abraham that through Issac your seed will be as the stars of the sky. So if there was no "promised son" there would be no offspring. Well we know the rest of the story....God waited until it was impossible for Abraham and Sarah to produce a child and then He performed a miracle.

Years later God tested Abraham's faith: He asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac. Why? Was God actually going to let Abraham kill his own son? No! Then why? Because now Abraham took God at his word. If God said something it was a done deal.

Thus Abraham reasoned: Since God does as He says then if I kill Issac God will have to resurrect him if my descendants are to number the stars of the sky.

So like I said it was a test to see if Abraham took God at His word. God would not allow Abraham to do harm to Issac that was never an issue.

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. But I am kind of stuck on James 1:13 that God tempts no one.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Where does the fire come from? From God out of heaven.

Job 1: 11 (Satan to God) "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

Note Satan blames God even though Satan is the one doing the evil.

12 The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

16 While he (one of Job's messengers) was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

Who done it? Satan and the messenger says God did it! The messenger is apparently confused, but Satan is a liar. Clearly Satan, the father of lies, did it. How? God partially abandoned Job.

Now, at the end of the world God fully abandons the human race because they have persistently and ultimately said no to the atonement. What happens when God retreats? The world falls apart. When God retreats His protection goes also.

Now that is a good point and something I can consider Robert.

A. Because it is a good illustration of your point.

B. Because it lacks aggression that really is not necessary.

Twilight.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

What happens when God retreats? The world falls apart. When God retreats His protection goes also.

Deut 31:17 Then My anger [note in the following that God's anger...God's wrath, unlike our anger, is passive. God removes Himself from those who reject Him. That's because agape cannot force...it cannot coerce.] My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, [the result?] and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

I can also see the truth in that. :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Deut 31:17 Then My anger [note in the following that God's anger...God's wrath' date=' unlike our anger, is passive. God removes Himself from those who reject Him. That's because agape cannot force...it cannot coerce.'] My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, [the result?] and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

Romanas 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them over [He removed Himself] to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen....32 who, knowing the just judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

God removes Himself. This results in trouble, which results in death, but God is not the killer....

I accept this principle, but it still does not deal with the man gathering the sticks.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Because that is his measuring stick of truth. This is idolatry. [/quote']

If I accept that Isaiah is a prophet, then I am an idolator?

If I accept Moses as a prophet, then I am an idolator?

If I accept Paul as a prophet, then I am an idolator?

I'm sorry, I must have missed out....Perhaps you could point me to the book of Ellen in the Bible?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The issue was Abraham's faith. First Abraham tried to help God produce "the child of promise" (Issac).

You see God promised Abraham that through Issac your seed will be as the stars of the sky. So if there was no "promised son" there would be no offspring. Well we know the rest of the story....God waited until it was impossible for Abraham and Sarah to produce a child and then He performed a miracle.

Years later God tested Abraham's faith: He asked Abraham to sacrifice Issac. Why? Was God actually going to let Abraham kill his own son? No! Then why? Because now Abraham took God at his word. If God said something it was a done deal.

Thus Abraham reasoned: Since God does as He says then if I kill Issac God will have to resurrect him if my descendants are to number the stars of the sky.

So like I said it was a test to see if Abraham took God at His word. God would not allow Abraham to do harm to Issac that was never an issue.

That is an interesting way of looking at it. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything. But I am kind of stuck on James 1:13 that God tempts no one.

Sure....God didn't tempt Abraham. He tested his faith. Since the promises (including Christ) were through Issac then if Abraham put a knife into Issac - God, in order to keep His promise, would have to raise him.

[Robert]

B. Because it lacks aggression that really is not necessary.

Twilight.

Who me aggressive? teehe

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Romanas 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. 24 Therefore God gave them over [He removed Himself] to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, 25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen....32 who, knowing the just judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

God removes Himself. This results in trouble, which results in death, but God is not the killer....

I accept this principle, but it still does not deal with the man gathering the sticks.

Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow....His love is the same....His passive anger (which is abandonment) is the same.

If you chose Christ and His grace you have life. If you chose law and you sin you must die. It's your choice....If under law and you gather sticks on the sabbath you must die. If you commit adultery you must die. If you sin, you must die...i.e., under law.

[Robert]

I can also see the truth in that. :-)

I accept this principle

Now that is a good point and something I can consider Robert.

TU

[oldsailor29]

No one has ever died the death from which they cannot be resurrected. Resurrection is part of the theology of the Bible, except for the book of Ecclesiastes.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

I'm sorry, I must have missed out....Perhaps you could point me to the book of Ellen in the Bible?

How about the principles of how to check out whether a prophet is indeed a prophet?

But that is something I am sure you have looked at, being on an SDA board etc. :-)

I accept her writings as fully inspired Robert, I respect that you do not.

But that does not make me an idolater, or anyone else that accepts the clear biblical testing of a prophet.

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

B. Because it lacks aggression that really is not necessary.

Twilight.

Who me aggressive? teehe

Just a little at times...

Twilight. :-)

[Lutz13]

Twilight, it is not my intention to say Moses was uninspired. I guess I am just trying to understand what Moses went through. I believe he wrote down his experiences, but I do not believe a lot of what they did was inspired by God. I'm sure you believe this as well.

God dealt with them where they were at. They wanted to sacrifice animals. God allowed it, but made sure to give them guidelines. They wanted law, and God also had to allow it because He doesn't use force ever. We know it could not have started from God because it was done away with. It was no good! We know everything that comes from God stands forever.

The flood can also be explained because Gods spirit left them. Much like what is happening in the world today. The last plagues will be man made, you can almost see how they will come about. Look what we are doing to the atmosphere! There is trouble on the way, and it will be because Gods spirit is pulling out.

[Twilight]

Twilight, it is not my intention to say Moses was uninspired. I guess I am just trying to understand what Moses went through. I believe he wrote down his experiences, but I do not believe a lot of what they did was inspired by God. I'm sure you believe this as well.

God dealt with them where they were at. They wanted to sacrifice animals. God allowed it, but made sure to give them guidelines. They wanted law, and God also had to allow it because He doesn't use force ever. We know it could not have started from God because it was done away with. It was no good! We know everything that comes from God stands forever.

The flood can also be explained because Gods spirit left them. Much like what is happening in the world today. The last plagues will be man made, you can almost see how they will come about. Look what we are doing to the atmosphere! There is trouble on the way, and it will be because Gods spirit is pulling out.

I understand, but I still do not think it is quite as clear cut as has been presented on here.

There are many things that God permits I can see that.

But there are also many things that He actively "does".

It will take further study.

Twilight :-)

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

While it is true that in some cases God uses the "rod of man" to punish others -- as when Babylon slaughters the people of Jersusalem and takes many off as slaves... it is NOT true that "Babylon caused the world wide flood" NOR is it the case that God tricked Satan into creating a world wide flood.

In fact Satan himself was in fear for his own life during the flood.

As the many details in the EGW quote above -- fit so perfectly with the details of Rev 20 and Rev 14 -- so they both combine to show an action being done by God "Himself" and in fact "God alone" -- starting with the resurrection of all the wicked dead at the end of the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I follow your reasoning to a point Lutz, do not get me wrong.

But when we have to reject the inspiration of Moses to establish a doctrine, I can go no further.

You have supplied some interesting quotes, my journey of discovery on this subject will obviously deepen over time.

Please be assured I am a genuine seeker of truth. :-)

God bless,

Twilight.

PS.

The colour is still awfull...

indeed - a "pick and choose" approach to the work of prophets is not "exegesis" it is also not what the Bible calls for.

Peter says "holy men of old moved by the Holy Spirit - spoke From God" --

Will people today really engage in "pick and choose" with the Word of God just to avoid some inconvenient revelation in what Ellen White says about the future acts OF GOD in dealing with the wicked??

Seems like an extreme position if they want to go there.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Where does the fire come from? From God out of heaven.

Job 1: 11 (Satan to God) "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

Note Satan blames God even though Satan is the one doing the evil.

12 The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

16 While he (one of Job's messengers) was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

Who done it? Satan and the messenger says God did it! The messenger is apparently confused, but Satan is a liar. Clearly Satan, the father of lies, did it.

The Bible does accurately say that God tells Satan - "Everything he has is in your hands" and the Bible DOES accurately record that "Fire came down out of heaven FROM GOD and DESTROYED them" in Rev 20 and the Bible does accurately say "Fear HIM who is able to DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28.

So this is where your argument keeps failing.

Your "God steps back and bad things just so happen to Job" argument totally fails when the context is "fire coming down out of heaven FROM GOD" and destroying Satan, his angels and all the wicked... obviously.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

I agree with them to a point.

But I think that the principle is probably carried a little too far.

But I allow for the Holy Spirit to lead me on this.

This "teaching" when carried too far runs into some strong statements.

Twilight.

[BobRyan]

There is no question but that God hands Job over to Satan just as the text says in Job 1 and 2.

But there is no "God hands the wicked over to Satan" in Rev 20 and there is no "Satan is allowed to destroy himself by fire" in Rev 20 etc. The context in the chapter is always key to proper exegesis.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

That is indeed my fear here Bob.

That it takes a truth too far.

Twilight.

[Lutz13]

Yes Bob. You keep spamming that cluster. I get it already. Shall I spam her other statements that do not agree? Also...What? God brought fire on Job? Are you serious? How on earth do you come to that conclusion? God told Satan "behold, all that he has is in your power"

Quote:

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.

Bah, I won't even bother with you anymore. The only response I get is a cluster of misunderstood words. It isn't literal my friend. If it is, then Jesus' eyes must also be on fire. It is what she describes Him as.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would worship a killer, a hypocrite...I am appalled that people condemn the crusaders, but it was ok for the children of Israel to commit such atrocities. I am done with this subject. I can only pray you both take a closer look. I know if I am wrong, God won't condemn me for trying to prove Him innocent. If I am right, then I just avoided the same accusations Satan throws at Him.

[Twilight]

Yes Bob. You keep spamming that cluster. I get it already. Shall I spam her other statements that do not agree? Also...What? God brought fire on Job? Are you serious? How on earth do you come to that conclusion? God told Satan "behold, all that he has is in your power"

Quote:

Then shall they that obey not the gospel be consumed with the spirit of His mouth and be destroyed with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8. Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.

Bah, I won't even bother with you anymore. The only response I get is a cluster of misunderstood words. It isn't literal my friend. If it is, then Jesus' eyes must also be on fire. It is what she describes Him as.

I can not for the life of me understand why anyone would worship a killer, a hypocrite...I am appalled that people condemn the crusaders, but it was ok for the children of Israel to commit such atrocities. I am done with this subject. I can only pray you both take a closer look. I know if I am wrong, God won't condemn me for trying to prove Him innocent. If I am right, then I just avoided the same accusations Satan throws at Him.

Easy my friend. :-)

This is not something personal, just a thorough examination of this idea.

God bless,

Mark