Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Twilight]

Quote:

But Moses was clearly dealing with Jesus all along, through the exodus and wilderness.

Quote:

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.--- DA 758

If a unfallen holy being was not able to clearly see who was doing what. How do you expect a sinful man to know?

This is the danger with this belief Lutz.

You HAVE to change the plain meaning of scripture to make it work.

Who commanded Moses to condemn the stick gatherer?

Jehovah.

The bible is very clear.

Now if we are to believe that Moses, who knew God personally could not tell the difference, then how can any one of us have the confidence to believe that "we" are not being deceived.

When we take a doctrine and try to make scripture fit to that doctrine, we are on the most dangerous ground.

We would have to rewrite the bible eventually, just like the Jehovah Witnesses did, because it just does not agree with us.

Do you honestly believe that Moses was talking to Satan when it says Jehovah?

Respectfully,

Twilight.

[Robert]

Who commanded Moses to condemn the stick gatherer?

Jehovah.

The bible is very clear.

Respectfully,

Twilight.

I doubt if there's respect here. Maybe if Lutz13 saw it your way, but I hope he/she doesn't because he/she is on the right road. I'm sorry you are locked in traditionalism.

As to you reference:

Numbers 32:15 When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day.

What's wrong with gathering sticks on the sabbath? It goes against "the law" - the Old Covenant:

"Every one who defileth it [the sabbath] shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people." [Ex 31:14]

In fact Paul states, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." [Gal 3:10] Just previous Paul to this Paul stated, "For all who rely on works of the law [salvation by law] are under a curse."

Israel had entered the OC with God. It was never God's intent, but rather Israel's pride. They knew that the law would be their master, not God. They insisted on being under the jurisdiction of the law. Keep this in mind!

33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.

Not clear? No, Moses and the whole congregation knew what the law demanded. Then why did they stall? Maybe they wanted grace? Well, then they shouldn't have entered the OC. You see the law's not in the business of forgiveness and grace.

As I already stated, Israel chose to be "under the law". They chose to be under the dominion (jurisdiction) of the law. That left God with only one answer (i.e., according to the law):

35... "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp." 36 The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses [i.e, in the book of the law or the Old Covenant].

So God is not speaking for Himself. He simply pointed them to the law that they were under.

[BobRyan]

The next point is simple.

God has the express right to give and take life.

He is the Creator.

The fundamental argument here is that God cannot "kill" because of the commandments.

Indeed. God killed at the flood. The population of the entire planet destroyed by God.

By contrast -- Had MAN decided to "drown two men and a dog" it would have been sin.

Trying to shoehorn the Creator Himself into the role of the CreatED is not sustainable in scripture.

God will resurrected ALL the wicked just as Rev 20 states at the end of the 1000 years then He will rain "fire and brimstone" on them all - just as Rev 20 says and the result will be exactly as Rev 14:9-10 have it "tormented with fire and brimstone IN the very PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His holy ones".

hmmm kind of reminds me of a quote from Ellen White -- if Lutz is still around. (I do recall Lutz saying that he/she accepts Ellen White as a valid inspired prophet)

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

While it is true that in some cases God uses the "rod of man" to punish others -- as when Babylon slaughters the people of Jersusalem and takes many off as slaves... it is NOT true that "Babylon caused the world wide flood" NOR is it the case that God tricked Satan into creating a world wide flood.

In fact Satan himself was in fear for his own life during the flood.

As the many details in the EGW quote above -- fit so perfectly with the details of Rev 20 and Rev 14 -- so they both combine to show an action being done by God "Himself" and in fact "God alone" -- starting with the resurrection of all the wicked dead at the end of the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Quote:

But Moses was clearly dealing with Jesus all along, through the exodus and wilderness.

Quote:

Not until the death of Christ was the character of Satan clearly revealed to the angels or to the unfallen worlds.--- DA 758

If a unfallen holy being was not able to clearly see who was doing what. How do you expect a sinful man to know?

This is the danger with this belief Lutz.

You HAVE to change the plain meaning of scripture to make it work.

Who commanded Moses to condemn the stick gatherer?

Jehovah.

The bible is very clear.

Now if we are to believe that Moses, who knew God personally could not tell the difference, then how can any one of us have the confidence to believe that "we" are not being deceived.

When we take a doctrine and try to make scripture fit to that doctrine, we are on the most dangerous ground.

We would have to rewrite the bible eventually, just like the Jehovah Witnesses did, because it just does not agree with us.

Do you honestly believe that Moses was talking to Satan when it says Jehovah?

Respectfully,

Twilight.

It is clear Twilight. I'm sorry you do not see it this way.

Would you walk into a home, kill the women and children in the home, then hang the man of the house up on a tree if God told you to?

I already know your response. You wouldn't. But why not? How is it you know that it wasn't God talking to you? You know because of Jesus. Jesus came to show the character of God. To destroy the works of the devil. Paul says that God winked on their ignorance in the past because they had no way of knowing. But he now says there is no excuse for ignorance, and to repent.

Though I do not know all the mysteries of the bible. I can not say I know everything about God. But one thing I do know. Is until I learn what love is, I will not know who God is. Because God is love, and love never takes but always gives. As we can see because God gave up more than we can ever imagine to save us. That is the love I want inside of me.

[Lutz13]

Bob, you keep quoting that Ellen White block, yet ignore everything I posted from her. Why is that?

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

The next point is simple.

God has the express right to give and take life.

He is the Creator.

The fundamental argument here is that God cannot "kill" because of the commandments.

Indeed. God killed at the flood. The population of the entire planet destroyed by God.

By contrast -- Had MAN decided to "drown two men and a dog" it would have been sin.

Trying to shoehorn the Creator Himself into the role of the CreatED is not sustainable in scripture.

God will resurrected ALL the wicked just as Rev 20 states at the end of the 1000 years then He will rain "fire and brimstone" on them all - just as Rev 20 says and the result will be exactly as Rev 14:9-10 have it "tormented with fire and brimstone IN the very PRESENCE of the Lamb and of His holy ones".

hmmm kind of reminds me of a quote from Ellen White -- if Lutz is still around. (I do recall Lutz saying that he/she accepts Ellen White as a valid inspired prophet)

in Christ,

Bob

You're free to worship who you want my dear friend. Just remember, we become what we worship.

[Lutz13]

Understanding what happened to Saul is important. But notice David here...

Quote:

Now it happened afterward that David's heart troubled him because he had cut Saul's robe. -1 Samuel 24:5

When I do something to someone, I always feel guilty. Where does that guilt come from? Why is it I start to feel bad for what I have done? I assume it was Jesus who touched His heart. Since he felt merciful towards Saul.

David has the chance to kill Saul a second time. He once again refused to do it. He told Abishai...

Quote:

As the Lord lives, the Lord shall strike him, or his day shall come to die, or he shall go out to battle and perish. --1 Samuel 26:10

Quote:

Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lets these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. --1 Samuel 31:4

Saul clearly took his own life...

Quote:

But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. -2 Samuel 7:15

Quote:

I gave you a king in My anger, and took him[saul] away in My wrath. --Hosea 13:11

Am I twisting this? Is it not clear...Did Saul kill himself, or did God kill him?!

[True-believer]

Understanding what happened to Saul is important. But notice David here...

Quote:

Now it happened afterward that David's heart troubled him because he had cut Saul's robe. -1 Samuel 24:5

When I do something to someone, I always feel guilty. Where does that guilt come from? Why is it I start to feel bad for what I have done? I assume it was Jesus who touched His heart. Since he felt merciful towards Saul.

David has the chance to kill Saul a second time. He once again refused to do it. He told Abishai...

Quote:

As the Lord lives, the Lord shall strike him, or his day shall come to die, or he shall go out to battle and perish. --1 Samuel 26:10

Quote:

Then Saul said to his armorbearer, "Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it, lets these uncircumcised men come and thrust me through and abuse me." But his armorbearer would not, for he was greatly afraid. Therefore Saul took a sword and fell on it. --1 Samuel 31:4

Saul clearly took his own life...

Quote:

But My mercy shall not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I removed from before you. -2 Samuel 7:15

Quote:

I gave you a king in My anger, and took him[saul] away in My wrath. --Hosea 13:11

Am I twisting this? Is it not clear...Did Saul kill himself, or did God kill him?!

King Saul approached a Medium and after the two armies fought he got he's own sword and fell on it in his chest.

It is very clear in the Bible that King Saul killed himself by his own sword in his chest.

And then David became the next King of Israel soon after.

[Robert]

Quote:

Sequeira expositions of the Bible.

What is that?

http://www.jacksequeira.org/

[Robert]

Bob, you keep quoting that Ellen White block, yet ignore everything I posted from her. Why is that?

Because folks that believe in a vengeful god are themselves becomes more like their god.

[Robert]

Did Saul kill himself, or did God kill him?!

Saul killed Saul, but because God is sovereign and because He has allowed Lucifer to develop his system of self-love, God assumes the blame.

[Robert]

Bob, you keep quoting that Ellen White ....

Because that is his measuring stick of truth. This is idolatry.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

This is the danger with this belief Lutz.

You HAVE to change the plain meaning of scripture to make it work.

Who commanded Moses to condemn the stick gatherer?

Jehovah.

The bible is very clear.

Now if we are to believe that Moses, who knew God personally could not tell the difference, then how can any one of us have the confidence to believe that "we" are not being deceived.

When we take a doctrine and try to make scripture fit to that doctrine, we are on the most dangerous ground.

We would have to rewrite the bible eventually, just like the Jehovah Witnesses did, because it just does not agree with us.

Do you honestly believe that Moses was talking to Satan when it says Jehovah?

Respectfully,

Twilight. [/quote']

It is clear Twilight. I'm sorry you do not see it this way.

Would you walk into a home, kill the women and children in the home, then hang the man of the house up on a tree if God told you to?

I already know your response. You wouldn't. But why not? How is it you know that it wasn't God talking to you? You know because of Jesus. Jesus came to show the character of God. To destroy the works of the devil. Paul says that God winked on their ignorance in the past because they had no way of knowing. But he now says there is no excuse for ignorance, and to repent.

Though I do not know all the mysteries of the bible. I can not say I know everything about God. But one thing I do know. Is until I learn what love is, I will not know who God is. Because God is love, and love never takes but always gives. As we can see because God gave up more than we can ever imagine to save us. That is the love I want inside of me.

But that is the whole point Lutz, it is not clear.

Moses has recorded that Jehovah commanded that the gatherer of sticks be put to death and even how that is the case.

Now if Moses was decieved then nothing Moses wrote can be trusted.

The first five books of the bible have to be thrown out, because they are clearly not inspired, but where merely Moses' opinion.

Do you not see where this goes?

I see here my friend, a belief that is being attached to the bible, even when it does not fit.

To accept your belief I have to deny the inspiration of Moses.

Why on earth would I do that?

I am a Christian that believes in Sola Scriptura.

Now I am not saying there is not an element of truth to these thoughts, but that they are being carried to far, because we think that God does not have the right to take life. When in fact He does.

God bless,

Twilight

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Who commanded Moses to condemn the stick gatherer?

Jehovah.

The bible is very clear.

Respectfully,

Twilight.

I doubt if there's respect here. Maybe if Lutz13 saw it your way, but I hope he/she doesn't because he/she is on the right road. I'm sorry you are locked in traditionalism.

As to you reference:

Numbers 32:15 When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day.

What's wrong with gathering sticks on the sabbath? It goes against "the law" - the Old Covenant:

"Every one who defileth it [the sabbath] shall surely be put to death; for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people." [Ex 31:14]

In fact Paul states, "Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them." [Gal 3:10] Just previous Paul to this Paul stated, "For all who rely on works of the law [salvation by law] are under a curse."

Israel had entered the OC with God. It was never God's intent, but rather Israel's pride. They knew that the law would be their master, not God. They insisted on being under the jurisdiction of the law. Keep this in mind!

33 Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. 34 They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him.

Not clear? No, Moses and the whole congregation knew what the law demanded. Then why did they stall? Maybe they wanted grace? Well, then they shouldn't have entered the OC. You see the law's not in the business of forgiveness and grace.

As I already stated, Israel chose to be "under the law". They chose to be under the dominion (jurisdiction) of the law. That left God with only one answer (i.e., according to the law):

35... "The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp." 36 The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses [i.e, in the book of the law or the Old Covenant].

So God is not speaking for Himself. He simply pointed them to the law that they were under.

So God is not speaking for Himself. He simply pointed them to the law that they were under.

That is not what the scripture states.

God did not refer them back to the Law, He passed judgement.

Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

It was the Lord that passed judgement and named the punishment.

There is nothing in here where God absolves Himself of the responsibility of the decision.

That is something you have added here.

So I cannot accept it as it is not stated in this scripture, nor implied.

God bless,

Twilight

[Twilight]

I also see something very plain in this Bob.

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

Where is sinful man?

On the earth.

Where is Satan?

Amongst them.

Where does the fire come from?

From God out of heaven.

God is shown to be an active participant in this process, the placing of sinful men and satan show that they are on the earth and the fire comes from outside of them and does not state it comes from their actions.

So it all would point away from the idea that God is not involved.

Twilight

Quote:

Great Controversy - 673

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething 673

lake of fire. It is the time of the judgement and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished “according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit.

His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {GC 673.1}

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

Satan and his angels suffered long. Satan bore not only the weight and punishment of his own sins, but

295

also of the sins of the redeemed host, which had been placed upon him; and he must also suffer for the ruin of souls which he had caused. Then I saw that Satan and all the wicked host were consumed, and the justice of God was satisfied; and all the angelic host, and all the redeemed saints, with a loud voice said, "Amen!"

{EW 294.2}

Said the angel, "Satan is the root, his children are the branches. They are now consumed root and branch. They have died an everlasting death. They are never to have a resurrection, and God will have a clean universe." I then looked and saw the fire which had consumed the wicked, burning up the rubbish and purifying the earth. Again I looked and saw the earth purified. There was not a single sign of the curse. The broken, uneven surface of the earth now looked like a level, extensive plain.

While it is true that in some cases God uses the "rod of man" to punish others -- as when Babylon slaughters the people of Jersusalem and takes many off as slaves... it is NOT true that "Babylon caused the world wide flood" NOR is it the case that God tricked Satan into creating a world wide flood.

In fact Satan himself was in fear for his own life during the flood.

As the many details in the EGW quote above -- fit so perfectly with the details of Rev 20 and Rev 14 -- so they both combine to show an action being done by God "Himself" and in fact "God alone" -- starting with the resurrection of all the wicked dead at the end of the 1000 years.

in Christ,

Bob

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Lutz13

Bob, you keep quoting that Ellen White ....

Because that is his measuring stick of truth. This is idolatry.

If I accept that Isaiah is a prophet, then I am an idolator?

If I accept Moses as a prophet, then I am an idolator?

If I accept Paul as a prophet, then I am an idolator?

Of course not.

Now if I worshipped them as God, then that would be idolatry.

That is a strong and unneccesary accusation you have presented against Bob there Robert.

To talk of God not destroying then trying to destroy another with words, is not consistent my friend.

God bless,

Twilight

[Lutz13]

Quote:

The first five books of the bible have to be thrown out, because they are clearly not inspired, but where merely Moses' opinion.

It is clear we are going in circles here...

Since almost everything I write is ignored. I will just do once sentence at a time.

If God told you to go into a house, murder the women and children, and hang the man of the house from a tree. Would you do it? Why or why not?

Please, I am not trying to be a nuisance. This is very important to understand. Perhaps we should discuss this in more detail, at a slower pace. If you are able, could you please answer my question?

[Twilight]

Quote:

The first five books of the bible have to be thrown out, because they are clearly not inspired, but where merely Moses' opinion.

It is clear we are going in circles here...

Since almost everything I write is ignored. I will just do once sentence at a time.

If God told you to go into a house, murder the women and children, and hang the man of the house from a tree. Would you do it? Why or why not?

Please, I am not trying to be a nuisance. This is very important to understand. Perhaps we should discuss this in more detail, at a slower pace. If you are able, could you please answer my question?

I am sorry Lutz, but we have to deal with the scripture.

If I accept your point of view, then I have to reject Moses as uninspired.

That he could not tell the difference between God and Satan.

And that God allowed Satan to appear in the sanctuary as Satan.

Until you can address that point, then these arguments are nothing but circular.

I am not trying to be difficult, but you have to deal with this issue, if you are convinced this is the truth and it should be shared.

This is pretty basic stuff, it does seem to stop your belief short in its tracks.

God did order that the stick gatherer should be put to death.

Or...

Moses was not inspired because he could not tell the difference.

Your thoughts?

Twilight

PS.

Who changed the colours?

[Lutz13]

Oh wow. Yeah not sure if I like the new color or not. It is new though!

Yes I know we are dealing with scripture. We are also dealing with interaction between man and God. Which is why I ask that question. It is a very important question that needs an answer.

Lets try and understand together one step at a time. Perhaps you can show me my error if I am wrong.

[Twilight]

This scenario will not work Lutz.

If God personally asks us anything, then we know it is for the ultimate good of mankind.

Like Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.

As the Isrealites were commanded to destroy a nation.

The question is more, "Did God order that destruction."

Not:

"Would we obey Him if...?"

But we still need to deal with Moses.

If I accept your point of view, then he was not inspired, then I have to throw out the first five books of the OT.

It also brings into question Gods character Himself.

Because it presents God as permitting His people to be deceived by Satan and giving them no protection.

Because if Moses had no basis to discern between God and Satan, then he was left out on a limb...

What do you think?

Twilight.

PS.

New colour is horrible, terrible to read when typing "white on black".

[Lutz13]

The crusaders thought they were doing mankind a favor as well...

You know what really throws me for a loop Twilight? Hebrews 13:8 "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever"

Then I read...

Quote:

But they did not receive Him, because His face was set for the journey to Jerusalem. And when His disciples James, and John saw this, they said, "Lord do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?" But He turned and rebuked them, and said "You do not know what manner of spirit you are of" --Luke 9:53-55

Then I read several things from Ellen White. Such as...

Quote:

Those who have a knowledge of God in Christ Jesus are under obligation to perform his expressed will in doing his commandments, which are a transcript of his character. We are under a debt of gratitude to God for the revelation of his love in Christ Jesus; and as intelligent human agents, we are to reveal to the world the manner of character that will result from obedience to every specification of the law of God's government. In perfect obedience to his holy will, we are to manifest adoration, love, cheerfulness, and praise, and thus honor and glorify God. It is in this way alone that man may reveal the character of God in Christ to the world, and make manifest to men that happiness, peace, assurance, and grace come from obedience to the law of God. Thus glory redounds to God in good and righteous actions through harmony with the laws of Jehovah's government. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 7}

That quote from her clearly says that the 10 commandments are Gods character. It is who He is. She says more.

Quote:

Pardoning, redeeming love is brought to view in Christ Jesus. Satan had misrepresented the character of God , and it was necessary that a correct representation should be made to worlds unfallen, to angels, and to men. Satan had declared that God knew nothing of self-denial, of mercy and love, but that he was stern, exacting, and unforgiving. Satan never tested the forgiving love of God; for he never exercised genuine repentance. His representations of God were incorrect; he was a false witness, an accuser of Christ, and an accuser of all those who throw off the Satanic yoke, and come back to render willing allegiance to the God of heaven. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 3}

I am still trying to understand how God spoke to Moses. The more I study, the clearer things get. The best answer I can give at this very moment is. Moses dealt with both Satan and Jesus. It is what I am trying to understand now. This world belongs to Satan. God is only able to save us as long as we keep our eyes on Him. If we lose focus and look to the world. We suffer Gods wrath. When I say Gods wrath, don't think I am talking about a humans wrath, because it is completely different.

Think about this though. When Jesus called Satan a murderer and the father of lies. If Jesus were to kill too, then He would be a hypocrite.

PS..I'm starting to get used to the color!

[Twilight]

I follow your reasoning to a point Lutz, do not get me wrong.

But when we have to reject the inspiration of Moses to establish a doctrine, I can go no further.

You have supplied some interesting quotes, my journey of discovery on this subject will obviously deepen over time.

Please be assured I am a genuine seeker of truth. :-)

God bless,

Twilight.

PS.

The colour is still awfull...

[Robert]

God did not refer them back to the Law, He passed judgment.

No, God doesn't condemn! Jesus came to this world not to condemn the world, but that through Him the world (the human race) would be saved. But Israel desired law and it was the law that they received. I stand by my statement. YOu, Twilight, need to see the big picture instead of that one little sentence that you think says it all.

[Robert]

Where does the fire come from? From God out of heaven.

Job 1: 11 (Satan to God) "But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face."

Note Satan blames God even though Satan is the one doing the evil.

12 The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your hands, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

16 While he (one of Job's messengers) was still speaking, another messenger came and said, "The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!"

Who done it? Satan and the messenger says God did it! The messenger is apparently confused, but Satan is a liar. Clearly Satan, the father of lies, did it. How? God partially abandoned Job.

Now, at the end of the world God fully abandons the human race because they have persistently and ultimately said no to the atonement. What happens when God retreats? The world falls apart. When God retreats His protection goes also.