Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Gail]

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I'm sorry to see that you want your enemies to be burned and to suffer.

Where did you get that idea? I didn't read that he wanted anything to happen to his enemies. He was simply explaining what he's read and how he understands it.

[Lutz13]

So was is God(Jesus) that hardened Pharaohs heart?(It says God did, then Pharaoh did...)

Was it from Jesus that Elijah brought fire down on those people?

(Jesus' disciples wanted to. He rebuked them and said they didn't know what spirit they were of)

Did Jesus repent twice though God isn't a liar that HE should ever have to repent?

Did Jesus have His Hebrew followers make an idol to look at for healing?(Don't worship false idols comes to mind...)

Did Jesus have the children of Israel kill women and children?(Turn the other cheek comes to mind...Love your what?)

Did Jesus blow up Sodom and Gomorrah?(Unconditional what? Love your what?)

Did Saul kill himself or did God(Saul fell on his sword. 'I gave you a king and took Him away in My wrath' C'mon. Was it God or Saul?)

Thou shall not kill...(Kill everyone in the city and take their stuff....oh...Thou Shall not steal btw...)

Yeah I could go on I guess...But do I really need to? I know the answer to all of these, but how you accept them as they are is far from me....

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I'm sorry to see that you want your enemies to be burned and to suffer.

Where did you get that idea? I didn't read that he wanted anything to happen to his enemies. He was simply explaining what he's read and how he understands it.

It is the biggest reason most reject this. That and why most love to think that there is a literal hell... One of my friends looked sad when I tried to explain to him that there was no hell...It was as if he wanted his enemies to burn there.

Let me ask you this. You are quick to condemn the Catholic system because of the murders she committed during the dark ages. Yet, why are you ok with what the children of Israel did? They committed the same crimes. Both made the claim "GOD WILLS IT"

[Gail]

Ex.12:29- Where did the last plague come from? Did the firstborn of Egypt just die on their own? Did Satan strike them down so that God's people could be freed?

I'm trying to follow your line of reasoning but have these questions...

[Gail]

Originally Posted By: Gail

Quote:

I'm sorry to see that you want your enemies to be burned and to suffer.

Where did you get that idea? I didn't read that he wanted anything to happen to his enemies. He was simply explaining what he's read and how he understands it.

It is the biggest reason most reject this. That and why most love to think that there is a literal hell... One of my friends looked sad when I tried to explain to him that there was no hell...It was as if he wanted his enemies to burn there.

Let me ask you this. You are quick to condemn the Catholic system because of the murders she committed during the dark ages. Yet, why are you ok with what the children of Israel did? They committed the same crimes. Both made the claim "GOD WILLS IT"

I am not quick to condemn anything, but to understand what the plain Word of God says.

[Lutz13]

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You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

If I were to have the same understanding as you. I would be saying... Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. If I were to take scripture as it is from your perspective I would see it as this...

(This is the worlds perspective of God)

http://www.irreligion.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/god-v-satan.png

I'm sorry, I am not ok with that. Christians constantly say "God is love" "God is love" Before I knew this truth all I could see was a psycho path on a murdering spree... My own roommate I finally had him reading the bible. His reaction was that God "was really [censored] off!" He stopped reading...Sad...very very sad.

[Lutz13]

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I am not quick to condemn anything, but to understand what the plain Word of God says.

But you certainly are not ok with what went on during the dark ages. The tortures and such. I would assume you aren't ok with it. Right?

[Lutz13]

Ex.12:29- Where did the last plague come from? Did the firstborn of Egypt just die on their own? Did Satan strike them down so that God's people could be freed?

I'm trying to follow your line of reasoning but have these questions...

[Twilight]

Even when you try to place the punishment of the wicked elsewhere, God is still permitting that to happen.

So God is actively involved in the punishment of the wicked, no matter how you look at it.

Why?

God sustains all life.

The removal of that sustaining process, is in itself the death sentance.

So God permits death and by the very act of permitting it, as the only one who prevents it, He gives His tacit approval.

It does not matter who pulls the guillotine cord, the King has to order the death first...

That would create a dilema then if I thought that God had "nothing" to do with it.

God has the right to take life, men do not, unless it is with His specific permission, that is my understanding.

Twilight

[Gail]

You are neglecting the fact that it was the Lord who struck all the firstborn at midnight. He did protect His own, of course, but He said that He was going to do it (bring the last plague-Ex.11:1; Ex.11:4) and He did do it (Ex.12:29)

[Lutz13]

Even when you try to place the punishment of the wicked elsewhere, God is still permitting that to happen.

So God is actively involved in the punishment of the wicked, no matter how you look at it.

Why?

God sustains all life.

The removal of that sustaining process, is in itself the death sentence.

So God permits death and by the very act of permitting it, as the only one who prevents it, He gives His tacit approval.

It does not matter who pulls the guillotine cord, the King has to order the death first...

That would create a dilemma then if I thought that God had "nothing" to do with it.

God has the right to take life, men do not, unless it is with His specific permission, that is my understanding.

Twilight

Welcome back Twilight. My understanding is that God never forces Himself on you. If we tell Him to go away(which is done by disobedience) He can't force His protection upon us. In turn we reap what we sow.

Did God take Saul's sword and stab him with it? No. Does God say He killed Saul? Yes. Did God really kill Saul? No. Saul forsook God and suffered Gods wrath. Saul killed himself.

[Lutz13]

You are neglecting the fact that it was the Lord who struck all the firstborn at midnight. He did protect His own, of course, but He said that He was going to do it (bring the last plague-Ex.11:1; Ex.11:4) and He did do it (Ex.12:29)

I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me. So let me get this straight...

God is telling His people to cover their door post so that He won't go in and murder them.

"I'm A PSYCHO GUYS!! DO THIS SO I WILL KNOW NOT TO GO IN AND MURDER YOUR CHILDREN...."

You really believe that? If that is true...Then I should be afraid of God...And I should follow Him out of fear so that He won't murder me... I'm sorry destroy me? Hit me with hail?

The truth of the matter is...God isn't trying to protect me from Him, He is trying to protect me from myself.

[Gail]

What I understand that yes, God has judgments to those who are murdering His own children and destroying the earth. He has boundaries to how far Satan can go.

[Lutz13]

And seriously!!! Can you see Jesus going around killing people?! SERIOUSLY!!!?! I mean seriously....If you think God is a destroyer, then the whole bible is a huge contradiction and should not be taken seriously. Gods love is unconditional...Gods love is unconditional...Gods love is unconditional...God will love you no matter what you do...God loved Pharaoh just as much as He loved Moses. God loves Satan just as much as He loves John... However, God will not, and will never force Himself on you. That is not Gods love!! If you choose to destroy yourself by refusing His protection and guidance. It is your own fault. He will not force it on you.

That doesn't mean He loves you any less. It actually grieves His heart! But what can He do?

[Lutz13]

There really shouldn't be much to argue with this subject. But sadly there is and I do not understand why. If you think God ever has to destroy, then He would have taken care of the problem back when Lucifer looked into the mirror and thought he was a special angel. Did God kill him? NO! Why not?

[Gail]

Easy- cause He wanted everyone to see the results of sin.

I am not arguing. I am trying to understand how you got to this conclusion. What do you do with the verses that have to do with Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc? that state that God purposely did the destroying? It seems to me that God draws a line over which the rebels, if they choose, can cross to their own destruction(besides the hurt they cause themselves).

Someone tried to tell me once, too, that Satan and Jesus would be reconciled in the end. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with that, also.

I may change my thinking, but I need to see it from God's word first.

[Lutz13]

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Easy- cause He wanted everyone to see the results of sin.

Yes, that is the easy answer! What are the results of sin? Death right? It would be like saying, what is the result of putting a loaded gun to your head and pulling the trigger. Death! Sin will wipe itself out, and God knows this. God doesn't need to step in to hurry the process up. It will happen and it is going to happen.

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I am not arguing. I am trying to understand how you got to this conclusion.

I got to this point because I looked at a world full of greed and death. Where young girls were getting stoned to death in the name of God. I knew the history of the dark ages where millions were murdered and tortured in the name of God. I stopped believing after awhile. Because I figured that no way could there possibly be a God that would create all of this.

I would always hear how loving God was from Christians. I sure didn't see it. The first part of the bible shows lots of destruction and death. Torture and violence. God telling men to go into cities and kill all women and children. Take their stuff, hang their king from a tree.

Just look at David and his acts. "The Lord is with me..." as he cuts off Goliaths head and drags it around with him everywhere showing it off. No...That is not love. That is not love at all.

I basically told God to piss off if He was there. Didn't care if He killed me.

He still reached out to me, and I found him again. He showed me something important. Why all this is happening and why it has to happen.

Sin came around because of pride. God still made Lucifer even though God knew that Lucifer would rebel against Him. I always wondered why God would do this. He revealed it to me. Freewill was not a mistake, and it would have gone against who God truly was if He had not made Lucifer. Yes God could have yet He didn't. Just like God has every right to take life, yet He doesn't because it goes against who He is.

Now, God becoming one of His own creations to die the death that I should have taken...Now that is love. So I ask myself. Why would God die on the cross to save man that rejected Him and hated Him throughout earths history? Because His love is so strong that He would do anything in His power to save us. Though He would not use force. He would use love. Love never takes, but always gives. Love is not selfish. Gods love has no conditions. We always try and place our love as Gods love. We try to bring the incorruptible down to the corrupt.

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What do you do with the verses that have to do with Sodom and Gomorrah, the Flood, etc? that state that God purposely did the destroying? It seems to me that God draws a line over which the rebels, if they choose, can cross to their own destruction(besides the hurt they cause themselves).

You must understand what Gods wrath is. Read and study Romans 1:18-25. Gods wrath is basically Him stepping aside allowing us to do what we will to do. He does this only because we reject Him over and over and over and over until there is nothing more He can do for us. Once His restraining arm is removed, Satan is allowed to do as he wishes. Once the saints were taken out of Sodom and Gomorrah Satan was allowed to destroy.

Anytime anyone suffers Gods wrath, God says "I did it". Which is why you see "God brought fire from heaven".

Just like Saul. Saul killed himself with a sword. Yet God says "I gave you a king in My anger, and took him away in My wrath" Saul suffered Gods wrath, and God says He killed Saul. Yet we know He didn't!

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Someone tried to tell me once, too, that Satan and Jesus would be reconciled in the end. I'm sorry, but I have a hard time with that, also.

Not once was that stated in this post. God tells Satan exactly how he will die. "Will you still say before him who slays you, 'I am a god'? but you shall be a man, and not a god, in the hand of him who slays you."--Ezek 28:9 Satan wants to be god too. He even convinces the world that he is god. But when the truth is known, the very seeds he planted he will reap. His very own will "throw you down into the pit"--Ezek. 28:8

[Guest WilloMar]

Dear Lutz13,

Truly the Creator God is leading you through His Holy Spirit. What you are saying is completely contrary to everyone of this world who worship "the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4)." We all will form the likeness, the character, of the God we worship. That, according to Sister White, is our human nature. And the hundred and forty-four thousand will have this perfect character which enables them to stand in the presents of the Lord when He comes.

We must prepare to meet Jesus at His Second Coming, so always look to Jesus.

[Robert]

Interesting...

How do you explain the Flood?

[Robert]

Even when you try to place the punishment of the wicked elsewhere, God is still permitting that to happen.

That's why He assumes the blame, until the day of atonement. He has allowed Lucifer to develop his concept of love, which was so convincing that 1/3 of the angels in heaven bought into it.

The love of self sounds wonderful, but when the rubber meets the road it doesn't look so good, huh? 6000 years of self-love has produced all sorts of evil.

In the love of self all I do (even things for other folks) is for my gain. Maybe it's reputation, money, fame, etc...all roads lead back to me....So everything in this world is based on self-seeking and that brings misery.

If I love self then there's no room for you....I must be number one....I must be the greatest of all....I, I, I,....Sound familiar? Right, Lucifer's invention....He is the father of what I term a u-turn agape. Instead of living for others, I live for myself. Everything we do, outside Christ, be it education, sports, employment, etc, etc...is based in iniquity.

But none of this could be seen at conception....So God had to allow it in order to expose it....Otherwise the universe would have served God out of fear....

[Robert]

The two goats. Read!

[Robert]

Here's part of Jack's study from above:

The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end.

So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment.

[Guest WilloMar]

Robert, I just read, "The Two Goats." Wonderful. At the Cleansing of the Sanctuary, at the time of the transference of sins from Jesus to Satan, Jesus stands up and says: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." This is the end of probation for the world, because everyone has made their choice. There's no need to continue. And the true Temples in heaven are the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb..." Rev. 22:21. Amen!

Let's all prepare to meet Jesus!

[Robert]

[oldsailor29]

There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.”

Isa. 45:7 KJV