Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Robert]

Because if the truth does not make you loving, kind, humble and patient, then it is not the truth...

Did you say loving? God drowns & burns to death children and you call that loving?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Man you are aggravating...and hardheaded too....

Who invented sin?

Answer: Satan!

His own creation destroys him. When God fully abandons Satan' date=' this world under the decay of sin, destroys both Satan and his sympathizers. Comprehend?

Since Satan invented iniquity (one's bent towards self) and since sin destroys, Satan kills himself. Again, so simple a caveman could understand it. It's not calculus.

Rob [/quote']

Is that a no?

:-)

Mark

Mark...Who invented sin? Lucifer. What does sin do, according to the Bible? It destroys...it kills....So yes, if it wasn't for God's grace towards the wicked (including Satan) then he would have perished long ago. Remember sin is turning away from God. Sin is living without God.....So Satan really will destroy himself. What a man sows he reaps....

[Robert]

You have presented God as a pacifist and have stated that everyone that does not agree with that view is wrong.

Bingo! Jesus stated, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." Show me, in life of Christ (as recorded in the NT) where Jesus beat the hell out of someone, or drowned them...or burnt them with fire. Yes, I can't hear you????

Rob

PS: Go ahead and bring up the money changers and I'll disprove this one also.

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Because if the truth does not make you loving, kind, humble and patient, then it is not the truth...

Did you say loving? God drowns & burns to death children and you call that loving?

There is a head knowledge and heart knowledge of every truth, both have to be in sync before we can teach any truth...

:-)

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Mark...Who invented sin? Lucifer. What does sin do, according to the Bible? It destroys...it kills....So yes, if it wasn't for God's grace towards the wicked (including Satan) then he would have perished long ago. Remember sin is turning away from God. Sin is living without God.....So Satan really will destroy himself. What a man sows he reaps....

Sin is transgression of the Law.

Sin is transgression of the law of love.

The two differing views here are:

1. That love does not destroy sin ever, for any reason. Sin causes its own destruction without the action or direct involvement of love.

2. That love does destroy sin, that sin cannot stand in the presence of love and be permitted. Love by its nature has to destroy sin.

So we are discussing the nature of love itself here...

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

You have presented God as a pacifist and have stated that everyone that does not agree with that view is wrong.

Bingo! Jesus stated, "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." Show me, in life of Christ (as recorded in the NT) where Jesus beat the hell out of someone, or drowned them...or burnt them with fire. Yes, I can't hear you????

Rob

PS: Go ahead and bring up the money changers and I'll disprove this one also.

Let us hear your explanation of the money lenders. :-)

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Well, it is addressed to the Jews who were under the covenant, and this prophecy would seem to have been fulfilled at AD70.

Now I am not saying that this does not refer to the end of time, but it is insufficient by itself, as it is actually addressed to those under the "covenant" that they broke and recieved punishment for in AD70 (partial punishment).

Twilight, AD70 was a shadow of what is going to happen once again.

Quote:

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. --GC 36

Which this also proves that you are skipping over clear evidence. Oh well...

[phkrause]

I have to agree with you Twilight. The wages of sin is death. And how that's accomplished we don't really know. But according to the Bible, fire comes down from heaven and all sinners are than gone for ever as if they were never born.

pk

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I have heard the argument that the commandment should really read "thou shalt not murder", from Doug Batchelor.

Now I am not student of Hebrew, but this makes sense.

If that is the true meaning then it would fit the tenor of scripture.

Once again, that is Doug trying to justify a murderous God. I'm sorry but that just doesn't cut it. Taking ones life is never justifiable. Sadly, just like Jesus said "the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."(John 16:2)Though you may not think so now, once the Spirit of God is once again removed from the world, if you have it somewhere in your mind that it is ok for us to kill someone because God did it in the past. You will carry out that thought. It makes me wonder how people say it is ok for God to burn people alive, yet so wrong when men do it to each other.

"you do not know what spirit you are of"(Luke 9:55) This is Jesus explaining that never under any circumstance is it ok to bring fire down on people because they do not believe the same as you. That bringing fire down from heaven comes from a spirit of evil. Yet this is often overlooked. Ask yourselves. Where did atheism come from? Why is it so strong today? Sadly, it is because Christians worship a killer god(Satan). It was at the cross that "the ruler of this world is judged"(John 16:11)At that cross we can now know who is who. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out"(John 12:31) the cross says He would rather die Himself than destroy His creatures. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(John 12:32) "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy mens lives but to save them"(Luke 9:56)

Often people accept that God had men destroy cities and kill in His name. Yet Peter thought it was ok to fight for Jesus "Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant"(John 18:10) Jesus who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" responded with "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword with perish by the sword"(Matthew 26:52) Sadly, "the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2 Corinthians 4:4)

This hateful God preached by Christians ruined me for the greater part of my life. I almost refused the true God, and accepted the one of many forms of the god of this world. I know my loving God "who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and [is higher than the heavens]"(Hebrews 7:26) Will now save me from myself. I now understand that Lucifer took the Lords name in vain, and defiled our Gods name.

Stop surface reading my friends, dig deeper!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

2. That love does destroy sin, that sin cannot stand in the presence of love and be permitted. Love by its nature has to destroy sin.

Once again you are confusing Gods love with your human love.

"By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us"(1 John 3:16) If love ever has to destroy. God would have just snapped His fingers and we could have been non-existent. Gods love is unconditional love. Your love seems to reveal a follow me or I will kill you. Since your god does it.

[Gail]

But murder and justice are not the same thing. We are told in the Bible (Romans 13:1->) that justice ministers are ordained of God, the minister of God.

The passage says that if you do evil, then you should be afraid. For those who are law-abiding (which you are in the larger sense if you are Christ's) that person is a minister for you for good.

The authorities administer justice, and that sometimes includes corporal punishment, up to and including the death penalty. That doesn't make the court or the judge a murderer, but the offender by his actions has earned his reward.

Now if Christians are entreated to submit themselves to secular authorities because they are ordained of God for your benefit, why not allow yourself the possibility that God's justice might be working FOR us, those who are the faithful to the good and faithful principles that He enjoins?

Just a thought.

[Lutz13]

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." --GC 672

Exactly how God said it would happen.

"They shall throw you down in to the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain, in the midst of the seas."(Ezekiel 28:8)

What happens? Satan just going to stand there? Perhaps he brings fire down on them.

[Gail]

Another note, based on prior comments:

Even though I am of this viewpoint, I do not want anyone dead. This is the message I am getting from your posts, that if I follow this line of reasoning that I will enjoy the punishment of the wicked. That is not the truth at all. I do not desire their demise, neither do I use God's punishment against anyone as a fear tactic to scare others. You are assuming something that is not necessarily true.

I desire only peace for others. Whatever method God uses to eradicate sin is fine with me, for I trust Him. I've known for myself the effect of learning of Him in my life. That is of peace and reconciliation.

[Lutz13]

But murder and justice are not the same thing. We are told in the Bible (Romans 13:1->) that justice ministers are ordained of God, the minister of God.

The passage says that if you do evil, then you should be afraid. For those who are law-abiding (which you are in the larger sense if you are Christ's) that person is a minister for you for good.

The authorities administer justice, and that sometimes includes corporal punishment, up to and including the death penalty. That doesn't make the court or the judge a murderer, but the offender by his actions has earned his reward.

Now if Christians are entreated to submit themselves to secular authorities because they are ordained of God for your benefit, why not allow yourself the possibility that God's justice might be working FOR us, those who are the faithful to the good and faithful principles that He enjoins?

Just a thought.

Gail, I am not too certain how to answer this. Let me assure you though, I am thinking about it and am looking at Romans 13 right now. As far as the death penalty, I know that doesn't come from God. Jesus said those without sin cast the first stone. Murder in Gods eyes is just as bad as me telling my neighbor that he is worthless. There is no excuse for killing.

Also, respecting our governments. I dunno what to think about this either. I'm thinking what he meant by this is, respect the authority until it has you breaking Gods laws. Even if they are wanting to put you to death.(Holocaust comes to mind)

[Lutz13]

Another note, based on prior comments:

Even though I am of this viewpoint, I do not want anyone dead. This is the message I am getting from your posts, that if I follow this line of reasoning that I will enjoy the punishment of the wicked. That is not the truth at all. I do not desire their demise, neither do I use God's punishment against anyone as a fear tactic to scare others. You are assuming something that is not necessarily true.

I desire only peace for others. Whatever method God uses to eradicate sin is fine with me, for I trust Him. I've known for myself the effect of learning of Him in my life. That is of peace and reconciliation.

I cannot fully agree with you. God is our example, "it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. And everyone who has this hope in Him purifies himself, just as He is pure."(1 John 3:2-3) Now if I am to be like the traditional view of God, than I will turn out to be a killer because the "time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service"(John 16:2) This prophecy also extends to our time. Though it has been done since creation. Men killing in the name of God thinking they are doing God a service. Just as Peter thought He was doing God a service when he "struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear."(John 18:10) This was not ok. Which is why it is so important to know and understand God.

[Gail]

Oh, no problem. The Bible says Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind (Rom.14:5) God has a purpose for leading us the way He does. May His name be praised.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Do you see it in terms like "Justice" "Vengence" and "full penalty of the Law" when you read what is stated at that link?

How did Christ die? What death did Christ die? Did God kill Christ or did God abandon Christ because He became sin, who as Deity, personally knew no sin?

That's how any lost sinner will die too....If not, then God has two ways of dealing with sin. One for Christ and one for everyone else.

God forsook Christ starting in Gethsemane. What did Jesus tell His captors? "This is your hour and the host of darkness." How is that possible? Because God forsook Christ. That's why Jesus said, "My Father, my Father, why have You forsaken me?"

What happens when God leaves? What happened when God abandoned Christ? Right and it ended in the 2nd death.

Deut 31:17 Then my anger will be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them and hide my face from them, and they will be devoured; and many evils and troubles will come upon them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?'

This is so utterly simple a caveman could understand it! teehe

Yes, it is very easy. I am not sure how this can be misunderstood. Jesus is the perfect example. Just as Jesus said "for it is written: I will strike the Shepherd and the sheep of the flock will be scattered."(Matthew 26:31) Indeed Jesus was struck, but by whom? God says He will strike the Shepard(Jesus). "He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up" (Romans 8:32) Ah yes, Jesus was separated from His Father. Our sins were being placed upon Christ, and He was suffering Gods wrath. Did God really deliver Jesus to Pilot? Or perhaps..."You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above."(John 19:11)Gods protection was taken from Him. "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"(Mark 15:34)

[Twilight]

Quote:

Well, it is addressed to the Jews who were under the covenant, and this prophecy would seem to have been fulfilled at AD70.

Now I am not saying that this does not refer to the end of time, but it is insufficient by itself, as it is actually addressed to those under the "covenant" that they broke and recieved punishment for in AD70 (partial punishment).

Twilight, AD70 was a shadow of what is going to happen once again.

Quote:

The Saviour's prophecy concerning the visitation of judgments upon Jerusalem is to have another fulfillment, of which that terrible desolation was but a faint shadow. In the fate of the chosen city we may behold the doom of a world that has rejected God's mercy and trampled upon His law. --GC 36

Which this also proves that you are skipping over clear evidence. Oh well...

You have to remember Lutz, it is the idea that God does not ultimately destroy that is the issue for me in this discussion. :-)

[Twilight]

I have to agree with you Twilight. The wages of sin is death. And how that's accomplished we don't really know. But according to the Bible, fire comes down from heaven and all sinners are than gone for ever as if they were never born.

pk

That is the crux of the matter here.

The bible says that it is from God, Ellen White says it is from God, yet it is presented here as being from Satan in reality.

It just has not been shown that this is indeed the case from Scripture or SOP, so I have to stick to a thus saith the Lord until someone can show me this from Gods Word. :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

I have heard the argument that the commandment should really read "thou shalt not murder", from Doug Batchelor.

Now I am not student of Hebrew, but this makes sense.

If that is the true meaning then it would fit the tenor of scripture.

Once again, that is Doug trying to justify a murderous God. I'm sorry but that just doesn't cut it. Taking ones life is never justifiable. Sadly, just like Jesus said "the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service."(John 16:2)Though you may not think so now, once the Spirit of God is once again removed from the world, if you have it somewhere in your mind that it is ok for us to kill someone because God did it in the past. You will carry out that thought. It makes me wonder how people say it is ok for God to burn people alive, yet so wrong when men do it to each other.

"you do not know what spirit you are of"(Luke 9:55) This is Jesus explaining that never under any circumstance is it ok to bring fire down on people because they do not believe the same as you. That bringing fire down from heaven comes from a spirit of evil. Yet this is often overlooked. Ask yourselves. Where did atheism come from? Why is it so strong today? Sadly, it is because Christians worship a killer god(Satan). It was at the cross that "the ruler of this world is judged"(John 16:11)At that cross we can now know who is who. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out"(John 12:31) the cross says He would rather die Himself than destroy His creatures. "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me"(John 12:32) "For the Son of Man did not come to destroy mens lives but to save them"(Luke 9:56)

Often people accept that God had men destroy cities and kill in His name. Yet Peter thought it was ok to fight for Jesus "Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant"(John 18:10) Jesus who "is the same yesterday, today, and forever" responded with "Put your sword in its place, for all who take the sword with perish by the sword"(Matthew 26:52) Sadly, "the god of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them"(2 Corinthians 4:4)

This hateful God preached by Christians ruined me for the greater part of my life. I almost refused the true God, and accepted the one of many forms of the god of this world. I know my loving God "who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and [is higher than the heavens]"(Hebrews 7:26) Will now save me from myself. I now understand that Lucifer took the Lords name in vain, and defiled our Gods name.

Stop surface reading my friends, dig deeper!

The reference to the "you do not know what spirit you are of", does not neccesarily imply that desctruction is a bad thing.

But that their motive for destruction was wrong.

I also believe that love has to destroy sin ultimately, that it has no choice or it will not be love.

This does not make me bloodthirsty or a deranged sinner, it recognises the logic that sin ultimately has to be removed from the universe and the only one who can do that without a stain upon His Character, is its Creator and the our God, who is love.

Remember, the issue here is the "expectation" of what we think "love" should and should not do.

Both positions presented here, have the danger of limiting Gods Character, question is which one is it...?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Quote:

2. That love does destroy sin, that sin cannot stand in the presence of love and be permitted. Love by its nature has to destroy sin.

Once again you are confusing Gods love with your human love.

"By this we know love, because He laid down His life for us"(1 John 3:16) If love ever has to destroy. God would have just snapped His fingers and we could have been non-existent. Gods love is unconditional love. Your love seems to reveal a follow me or I will kill you. Since your god does it.

The same thing could be said of your position.

If Love has to destroy sin ultimately, then your own idea of "agape" may in fact be based on human reasoning and not the scripture.

Have you considered that my friend?

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

But murder and justice are not the same thing. We are told in the Bible (Romans 13:1->) that justice ministers are ordained of God, the minister of God.

The passage says that if you do evil, then you should be afraid. For those who are law-abiding (which you are in the larger sense if you are Christ's) that person is a minister for you for good.

The authorities administer justice, and that sometimes includes corporal punishment, up to and including the death penalty. That doesn't make the court or the judge a murderer, but the offender by his actions has earned his reward.

Now if Christians are entreated to submit themselves to secular authorities because they are ordained of God for your benefit, why not allow yourself the possibility that God's justice might be working FOR us, those who are the faithful to the good and faithful principles that He enjoins?

Just a thought.

That is an interesting point Gail and points back to the quote earlier in the thread, which I found in the SOP, which clearly states that God used Isreal to make war on the nations around it as an act of judgement.

Mark

[Twilight]

"The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them." --GC 672

Exactly how God said it would happen.

"They shall throw you down in to the Pit, and you shall die the death of the slain, in the midst of the seas."(Ezekiel 28:8)

What happens? Satan just going to stand there? Perhaps he brings fire down on them.

But it does not say they destroy him, but that they turn on him.

We cannot imply a meaning in the statement that is not said.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

Another note, based on prior comments:

Even though I am of this viewpoint, I do not want anyone dead. This is the message I am getting from your posts, that if I follow this line of reasoning that I will enjoy the punishment of the wicked. That is not the truth at all. I do not desire their demise, neither do I use God's punishment against anyone as a fear tactic to scare others. You are assuming something that is not necessarily true.

I desire only peace for others. Whatever method God uses to eradicate sin is fine with me, for I trust Him. I've known for myself the effect of learning of Him in my life. That is of peace and reconciliation.

I second this, I have no desire for anyone to die, but I accept that it is probably necessary for the sake of the Universe.

Mark

[Lutz13]

Quote:

he bible says that it is from God, Ellen White says it is from God, yet it is presented here as being from Satan in reality.

I did. Want to see it again?

"Awake, O sword, against my shepherd[Jesus], and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones."(Zechariah 13:7) Jesus said because it is written of me, you guys will scatter. "for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad."(Matthew 26:31) Did God strike Jesus? No. But God said He would. Did God deliver Jesus into the hands of the people? No, but He certainly said He did. Jesus died the death that the wicked will die. His death will be no different from their death. The results of sin is death. Look to Christ.