Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[BobRyan]

Quote:

DA Chpt 78 Calvary

http://egwdatabase.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...hapter01327.htm

From the fall of Jerusalem the thoughts of Jesus passed to a wider judgment. In the destruction of the impenitent city He saw a symbol of the final destruction to come upon the world. He said, "Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?" By the green tree, Jesus represented Himself, the innocent Redeemer. God suffered His wrath against transgression to fall on His beloved Son. Jesus was to be crucified for the sins of men. What suffering, then, would the sinner bear who continued in sin? All the impenitent and unbelieving would know a sorrow and misery that language would fail to express. {DA 743.2}

..

The Saviour made no murmur of complaint. His face remained calm and serene, but great drops of sweat stood upon His brow. There was no pitying hand to wipe the death dew from His face, nor words of sympathy and unchanging fidelity to stay His human heart. While the soldiers were doing their fearful work, Jesus prayed for His enemies, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." His mind passed from His own suffering to the sin of His persecutors, and the terrible retribution that would be theirs. No curses were called down upon the soldiers who were handling Him so roughly. No vengeance was invoked upon the priests and rulers, who were gloating over the accomplishment of their purpose. Christ pitied them in their ignorance and guilt. He breathed only a plea for their forgiveness,--"for they know not what they do." {DA 744.2}

Had they known that they were putting to torture One who had come to save the sinful race from eternal ruin, they would have been seized with remorse and horror. But their ignorance did not remove their guilt; for it was their privilege to know and accept Jesus as their

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…

Jesus, suffering and dying, heard every word as the priests declared, "He saved others; Himself He cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe." Christ could have come down from the cross. But it is because He would not save Himself that the sinner has hope of pardon and favor with God. {DA 749.1}

…

There is no question now. There are no doubts, no reproaches. When condemned for his crime, the thief had become hopeless and despairing; but strange, tender thoughts now spring up. He calls to mind all he has heard of Jesus, how He has healed the sick and pardoned sin. He has heard the words of those who believed in Jesus and followed Him weeping. He has seen and read the title above the Saviour's head. He has heard the passers-by repeat it, some with grieved, quivering lips, others with jesting and mockery. The Holy Spirit illuminates his mind, and little by little the chain of evidence is joined together. In Jesus, bruised, mocked, and hanging upon the cross, he sees the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world. Hope is mingled with anguish in his voice as the helpless, dying soul casts himself upon a dying Saviour. "Lord, remember me," he cries, "when Thou comest into Thy kingdom." {DA 750.1}

…

[/p]

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And now the Lord of glory was dying, a ransom for the race. In yielding up His precious life, Christ was not upheld by triumphant joy. All was oppressive gloom. It was not the dread of death that weighed upon Him. It was not the pain and ignominy of the cross that caused His inexpressible agony. Christ was the prince of sufferers; but His suffering was from a sense of the malignity of sin, a knowledge that

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through familiarity with evil, man had become blinded to its enormity. Christ saw how deep is the hold of sin upon the human heart, how few would be willing to break from its power. He knew that without help from God, humanity must perish, and He saw multitudes perishing within reach of abundant help. {DA 752.4}

Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. {DA 753.1}

Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God. {DA 753.2}

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The spotless Son of God hung upon the cross, His flesh lacerated with stripes; those hands so often reached out in blessing, nailed to the wooden bars; those feet so tireless on ministries of love, spiked to the tree; that royal head pierced by the crown of thorns; those quivering lips shaped to the cry of woe. And all that He endured--the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands, His feet, the agony that racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face--speaks to each child of humanity, declaring, It is for thee that the Son of God consents to bear this burden of guilt; for thee He spoils the domain of death, and opens the gates of Paradise. He who stilled the angry waves and walked the foam-capped billows, who made devils tremble and disease flee, who opened blind eyes and called forth the dead to life,--offers Himself upon the cross as a sacrifice, and this from love to thee.

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He, the Sin Bearer, endures the wrath of divine justice, and for thy sake becomes sin itself. {DA 755.1}

Notice how the truths detailed in the "2nd death" link already posted in my prior post are perfectly blended into this description of why Christ died?

Which of course - perfectly agrees with Col 2 stating that "our certificate of debt" (debt owed as determined by the Law of God... the "speeding ticket calling for the second death fine" if you will) was nailed to the cross.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

I actually answered it. Yet you ignored it. God tells Satan how he will die. So not even gonna bother repeating myself.

[Lutz13]

What is the wrath of God Bob?

[BobRyan]

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

And in EW 294 God does it in such a way that "Satan suffers for many days" and that he is punished according to his "greater guilt" as determined by the Law. In fact as the text says "as long as there is a particle left for the fire to feed on all the sense of suffering remains".

Fits perfectly. Just glad I didn't say it.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

All the fence post do not line up Bob. Gods glory to a sinner is like a consuming fire.

Ezekiel 28:8 "They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas."

[BobRyan]

What is the wrath of God Bob?

Good question.

When you click on this link - how many times do you see it described -- and how is it described?

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...html#Post242564

Do you see it in terms like "Justice" "Vengence" and "full penalty of the Law" when you read what is stated at that link?

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

In Rev 20 Satan dies when Fire and Brimstone falls on him and all his followers - "From God" according to the text. In Isaiah he dies when God causes fire from within him to consuming him as part of that same event.

And in EW 294 God does it in such a way that "Satan suffers for many days" and that he is punished according to his "greater guilt" as determined by the Law. In fact as the text says "as long as there is a particle left for the fire to feed on all the sense of suffering remains".

Fits perfectly. Just glad I didn't say it.

in Christ,

Bob

Ah yes Bob, according to text God brought fire down on Jobs stuff too.

[BobRyan]

There is no mention at all in the book of Job of God saying that he brought fire down on Job. Only satan attributes the act to God in the book of Job

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

According to text Bob. God killed Saul. God killed Jesus. God hardened Pharaohs heart. God is a liar. God is a killer...

[Lutz13]

There is no mention at all in the book of Job of God saying that he brought fire down on Job. Only satan attributes the act to God in the book of Job

in Christ,

Bob

And throughout the bible...Not just Job.

[Lutz13]

Oh I might as well add...Jesus is a hypocrite according to text.

[Lutz13]

Sorry, I wasn't ok with blind faith. God understood that and proved Himself.

[BobRyan]

According to text Bob. God killed Saul. God killed Jesus. God hardened Pharaohs heart. God is a liar. God is a killer...

I guess I missed the "God is a liar" text.

Quote more Bible and less "you" when making a case like that so I can see the underlying point you are referencing please.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Oh I might as well add...Jesus is a hypocrite according to text.

Indeed - there is "no limit" to what you could say if you are not going to back those accusations up with actual text.

in Christ,

Bob

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Good question.

And Paul answers.

Ready? Paying attention? Awake?

" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." --Romans 1:18

Hey, what do we have here? Gods wrath revealed?? Amazing!

"because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them." --Romans 1:19

Well...I'm not quite there and fall short. You see I am human, and a child at that. So I do not quite have Gods character in me. I pray He continues His work on me though.

"For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and God head, so that they are without excuse." --Romans 1:20

Yes, even in a really messed up world. I can now see the footprint left by our loving Creator.

"Because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened, professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man---and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things." --Romans 1:21-23

It is sad when man wants to worship animals. Or even themselves. They wish to bring something incorruptible down to their own level of corruptness. So what is God to do with these people?

"Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lust of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves." --Romans 1:24

Well, looks like God doesn't want to force them to follow Him. So it looks like He just had to let them do what they want. So they follow the god of this world instead.

"who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever Amen." --Romans 1:25

Sad indeed. God creates us, and we just spit on Him and worship the created instead of the Creator. Hrmm...God sure does have lots of creatures. Satan has been worshiped. Man has been worshiped. Even cows!

So what is God to do with these people?

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature." --Romans 1:26

Well, looks like once again they didn't listen to God and spit on Him. So He never forces anyone to follow Him so He let them do their thing again.

"And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mine, to do those things which are not fitting." --Romans 1:28

OH MAN!!! GOD IS ANGRY!!! Luckily, Gods anger doesn't represent my own anger.

God could no longer do anything for them and gave them over to a what? Evil mind.

Hrmm...Gods wrath...I remember a certain person who suffered His wrath. Ah yeah, it comes to my mind now. Saul killed himself...I think God said.."I gave you a king in my anger, and took him away in My wrath!" Ahhhhhh!!!! God is mad again! Oh, thankfully Gods anger is nothing like my own anger.

Poor Saul. Forsook God. God couldn't do anything else for Him so He had to give him over to an evil mind. Then look what happened. He self destructed.

Jesus felt Gods wrath... Jerusalem felt Gods wrath in 70AD...Ah heck, we have felt Gods wrath since the beginning. The whole world is going to feel it soon. During the time of trouble... Bad things happen when we tell God to piss off over and over and over. His protection is removed because we refused it. Sad...

[Lutz13]

Quote:

I guess I missed the "God is a liar" text.

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" --2 Thess 2:11

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Indeed - there is "no limit" to what you could say if you are not going to back those accusations up with actual text.

Ooooh, I'm sorry Bob. I guess since I posted it a 100 times already I just forgot to post it again.

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." --John 8:44

Woah...WOAH WOAH WOAH WOAH...Hold up Jesus. Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black?

Bob told me that you. Killed everyone in a flood. Murdered people with hailstones, burned up children in Sodom and Gomorrah. You even told Joshua to go into the cites and steal their stuff and to kill everyone. Even the women and children. You also had them make sure and not kill the king though. You had him hung from a tree...

Ah dear Jesus, I know that wasn't you.

[Gail]

For myself, I'm still not convinced that the giving up of men to their own rebellious ways is the same thing as God's wrath.

You quoted:

Quote:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness." --Romans 1:18

There is nothing here that says that God's wrath is the same thing as giving them up. I firmly believe that He DOES give men up, that He has a "point of no return" after which He knows that they will never repent.

The verse above still leaves room for God's wrath to be a specific punishment, which He will reveal against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.

[phkrause]

I also kind of remember when I was a young boy hearing somewhere that one of the reasons that God allowed the children of Israel to go in to canaan and destroy everyone there was because they were so heathen, almost like when he brought a flood to the earth. I believe they said that EGW had mentioned this. I've never come across that statement from her as of yet, so I have no reference's as of yet.

pk

[Lutz13]

Quote:

There is nothing here that says that God's wrath is the same thing as giving them up.

"Now Saul was afraid of David, because the Lord was with him, but had departed from Saul" --Samuel 18:12 "I gave thee a king(Saul) in mine anger, and took him away in my wrath." --Hosea 13:11

Jesus prayed "O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me:" --Matt 26:39 "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation;" --Rev 14:10 And Jesus took that cup..."My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"--Mark 15:34

[Lutz13]

Quote:

The verse above still leaves room for God's wrath to be a specific punishment, which He will reveal against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.

For the wrath of God - Gods anger.

is revealed - Is being shown.

from heaven - This comes from heaven.

against - who this wrath is for

all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men - The bad guys!

who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. - If you're bad, then you aren't listening to truth!

Then Paul goes on to explain what it is...He has not even made it to the explanation of what it is...lol

[Lutz13]

"and wrath came upon Judah and Jerusalem for this their trespass...Thus saith God, Why transgress you the commandments of the Lord, that you cannot prosper? because you have forsaken the Lord, he has forsaken you....and it came to pass...that the host of Syria came up against him; and they came to Judah and Jerusalem, and destroyed all the princes of the people from among the people..."--2 Chronicles 24:18-23

[Twilight]

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Is "patience" not a fruit of the Spirit my friend?

Yes it is. Do I have patience? Up to a certain point. Yet when you prove my point, I think it is time for me to just shrug it off and move on.

Just to repeat so that you know where I am coming from.

You asked the question if a snake was in my kids room would it be evil to kill it.

You are bringing God down to your level because you assume it would be ok. Yet God knew all along that Satan was a snake. That Satan would sin. Yet God made him, and God didn't kill him. Just because you would, doesn't mean God would.

So in your analogy, Satan = the snake. God = you. You would have killed it. But we know God didn't. So you are bringing God down to your human thinking which proves my point. You want God to be just like you. Which He never will! And that is why I thank God that He is God and not you! My God doesn't share traits with the god of this world. My God died on a cross to show how much He loves me.

It is like this, and this is how I will understand the people that do not understand this.

"They will put you out of the synagogues; yes , the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service. And these things they will do to you because they have not known the Father nor Me." --John 16:2-3

The Hebrews of old did the same thing. Killed in the name of God thinking they were doing God a service. When in reality they were doing service for the lord of this world. Yet there is something that separates us from them. That is Jesus revealed what He was like. They didn't know, and couldn't know because the ruler of this world had them so blind they couldn't see. History has a funny way of repeating itself.

"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." --John 8:43-44

So excuse me for not accepting that Jesus is a hypocrite. Excuse me for not accepting that God is a liar. Excuse me for not accepting that God is going to kill me if I do not worship Him. Excuse me for not bowing down to a murderer/killer.

My friend, just because someone does not agree with you, it does not mean they are persecuting you.

Mark :-)

[Twilight]

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I am still not sure how Satan is going to cause everyone to suffer the exact punishment for each of their sins...?

Do you know what God looks like? Didn't think so. Not all things will be known until it happens.

Then you have no biblical support for this idea in the bible or SOP?

Can you point to one place where it says that Satan destroys the wicked and himself and manages to do all that to an appropriate amount of time deserving of that punishment?

If not, then does that not bother you?

Mark

[Twilight]

Originally Posted By: Twilight

Hello Robert :-)

Your emotive argument does not answer the question I posed:

I am still not sure how Satan is going to cause everyone to suffer the exact punishment for each of their sins...?

Including himself...

I know you feel very strongly about this "truth", but if you cannot deal with this and other simple questions, then people are not going to accept your position, or your presentation of your position.

Mark :-)

Indeed. That is the "innexplicable" point in their argument.

Sometimes called "a big red flag".

in Christ,

Bob

It is indeed a fundamental problem for this teaching.

Mark :-)