Worship the Creator not the destroyer

[Gail]

Tammy, this teaching also came out around that time in the Loma Linda area, by Graham Maxwell, but not carried through to the extent put forward here.

Interesting :)

[Robert]

2 Kings 2:23 Elisha left Jericho and went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road, a group of boys from the town began mocking and making fun of him. "Go away, you baldhead!" they chanted. "Go away, you baldhead!" 24 Elisha turned around and looked at them, and he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of them. [NLT]

Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, And there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal; And there is none that can deliver out of my hand. 40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, And say, As I live for ever, 41 If I whet my glittering sword, And my hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine adversaries, And will recompense them that hate me. 42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, And my sword shall devour flesh; With the blood of the slain and the captives, From the head of the leaders of the enemy. [ASV]

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. [KJV]

[Lutz13]

I will say it again. Does God even need to destroy the sinner? The guy who hangs himself, the guy who jumps off the building. Does God really need to kill them before their deed does the job? That is what this traditional view of God has to sometimes destroy teaches.

If God kills then God doesn't support free will. He gives the the freedom to kill ourselves if that is our choice. Though He does what He can to save us from ourselves, but He won't force us.

Sin will destroy itself! Why do you think we are still here?! Seriously! Once God removes His Spirit again, those not sealed with the Seal of God are going to go nuts, because they won't have Gods character.

[Tammy]

Tammy, this teaching also came out around that time in the Loma Linda area, by Graham Maxwell, but not carried through to the extent put forward here.

Interesting

Hi Gail, Yes, now that you say that, I do remember that Graham Maxwell was also teaching it. We had learned about it from that Fred Wright (should have been Fred Wrong) guy....and unfortunately, it seem as for the most part, once people accept this teaching, not many of them really ever come out of it.

I have not read it, but I understand that Steve Wohlberg has written a pretty good book on the subject. Have you read it?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

it seem as for the most part, once people accept this teaching, not many of them really ever come out of it.

That is because before this teaching you believe blindly. How do you believe in a book which is full of contradictions? The people that accept this truth were not ok with the hateful god of the old testament, and the somehow he met a psychiatrist and is now mentally stable in the new testament. That is what it shows.

Now my question to you. When I pray to God while studying His word, and constantly ask Him questions while I read. That if I have something wrong to please show me. That if I have this whole study wrong please do not let me go further in it. Why does He encourage me to keep going?

Am I supposed to fear my creator? Is that how it works? No, that is not how it works. John speaks of this and is very clear. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love cast out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fear has not been made perfect in love."(1 John 4:19) Your traditional view asks me to fear God and be afraid of Him. Because if I do not worship Him, I am doomed to the lake of fire to be tormented.

So if you can't understand why people do not forsake this view, it is because I would rather love God than be afraid of Him. "For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;"(Hebrews 7:26)

Sadly I do not think people know what the cross truly meant. I didn't until a few days ago...Which this study led me to.

[Robert]

Keep in mind that I am presenting these quotes for the reason I stated previously:

Quote:

When I got out of legalism I found the best way to turn a legalist from self-righteousness was to given him or her so many rules that they would beg for grace. Now I'm going to do this with "the wrath of God."

[Woody]

Good approach Robert. If it worked for you ... I am sure it might help someone else.

There is NO way we can answer the curse of the Law with what Jesus does in US. The only answer is what Jesus did through His life and death on this earth.

[Robert]

...and unfortunately, it seem as for the most part, once people accept this teaching, not many of them really ever come out of it.

Oh, how terrible! You mean they don't return to believing in a god who makes "[His] arrows drunk with blood..."?

You mean they reject a god who "creates Evil" who hardens one's heart so that he/she will rebel and then destroys all - men, women and infants? Say it ain't so, Joe....!

I just can't understand why one would desire a pacifist God. I want a god like me...one who gets angry...who is ever ready to slay his enemies. That's my type of god!!!

NOT! teehe

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Keep in mind that I am presenting these quotes for the reason I stated previously:

Yeah. I still can't understand how people can accept that it was Jesus who was saying all that...Which is what the huge contradiction of scripture is. OT Version: Kill them. NT Version: Love them. Something just doesn't add up...

[Robert]

Good approach Robert.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em and add a little bit of spice.

From now on I'm going to present a god meaner and angrier then their god. Then maybe they'll say, "Hey, Rob, I kind of like your kinder, gentler, pacifist God a lot better"?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

From now on I'm going to present a god meaner and angrier then their god. Then maybe they'll say, "Hey, Rob, I kind of like your kinder, gentler, pacifist God a lot better"?

I do not know if that will work though. They first have to realize that they can't change "the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man"(Romans 1:23) Since they keep comparing themselves to God. "Well, I would do it like this, so I think God would too" Completely ignoring what God has said concerning this. "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are you ways my ways, saith the LORD"(Isaiah 55:8)

[Robert]

I still can't understand how people can accept that it was Jesus who was saying all that...Which is what the huge contradiction of scripture is. OT Version: Kill them. NT Version: Love them. Something just doesn't add up...

I understand...believe me, I understand.

Here's the problem:

1 Cor 13:12 "For now we see [God] in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face."

When I look to the cross I see love personified. I see a God-man who wouldn't retaliate, who would rather die eternally then come down off the cross and save Himself. I see a God who loves, not His friends, but His enemies more than He loves Himself. That's because "agape" has no self in it.

Knowing this, how can we reconcile this truth with these OT statements?

Well, the best thing I can come up with is M.M. Campbell's principle in her book, "Light on the Dark Side of God." Here it is:

"Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent.

Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent. Note how often He describes them as His own doing in vivid, convincing terms. ....

Why would God choose to so express Himself? His reason is not unknown in the human realm. "

[Robert]

I do not know if that will work though.

Who knows?

[Robert]

From now on I'm going to present a god meaner and angrier then their god. Then maybe they'll say, "Hey, Rob, I kind of like your kinder, gentler, pacifist God a lot better"?

Joshua 7:4 Then Joshua and all the Israelites took Achan, the silver, the robe, the bar of gold, his sons, daughters, cattle, donkeys, sheep, tent, and everything he had, and they brought them to the valley of Achor. 25 Then Joshua said to Achan, "Why have you brought trouble on us? The LORD will now bring trouble on you." And all the Israelites stoned Achan and his family and burned their bodies. 26 They piled a great heap of stones over Achan, which remains to this day.

Who sinned? Achan!!! Who got the wrath of God? Not just Achan, but also his family and his animals. Is there a problem here?

Ez 18:20 "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son."

Hmmm?

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Joshua 7:4 Then Joshua and all the Israelites took Achan, the silver, the robe, the bar of gold, his sons, daughters, cattle, donkeys, sheep, tent, and everything he had, and they brought them to the valley of Achor. 25 Then Joshua said to Achan, "Why have you brought trouble on us? The LORD will now bring trouble on you." And all the Israelites stoned Achan and his family and burned their bodies. 26 They piled a great heap of stones over Achan, which remains to this day.

Who sinned? Achan!!! Who got the wrath of God? Not just Achan, but also his family and his animals. Is there a problem here?

Ez 18:20 "The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son."

Hmmm?

That is called a contradiction. So I am going to... and hope it goes away.

[Robert]

Here's a modern day scenario:

"Yes, Mrs. Smith?" "Yes", she replies ~ "Your son took some money out of the offering plate. Gather your family up and prepare to die. We will execute all of you at noon." "If that's God's will, okay pastor" replies the woman.

Huh?

[Robert]

That is called a contradiction. So I am going to... and hope it goes away.

Yeah, I understand, but there's something here we can't comprehend. I personally don't care too much for the OT. It's confusing at best. I'm talking about those passages with all this "wrath of God" stuff....Contradicts Christ. And Christ said He and the Father were one. He also said if you have seen Me you've seen the Father. Funny, Christ never acted like that in the NT!

That's why no one is infallible. No one can understand everything in the Bible.

Rob

[Gerr]

To no one in particular.

So far I haven't seen any mention of another aspect of God's character, i.e. He is also just, and He is also Judge. Love must also be just.

[LifeHiscost]

[LifeHiscost]

Here's a modern day scenario:

"Yes, Mrs. Smith?" "Yes", she replies ~ "Your son took some money out of the offering plate. Gather your family up and prepare to die. We will execute all of you at noon." "If that's God's will, okay pastor" replies the woman.

Huh?

Why not this scenario instead of that?

"Then God said, "Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains I will tell you about.""Genesis 22:2 NIV

" Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham"Genesis 22:1 NKJV

"So Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering and laid it on Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife, and the two of them went together. But Isaac spoke to Abraham his father and said, “My father!”

And he said, “Here I am, my son.”

Then he said, “Look, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?”

And Abraham said, “My son, God will provide for Himself the lamb for a burnt offering." Gen 22:6-8 NKJV

Not so difficult to understand when a person is willing to do what God asks, whether he/she understands why or not. Many professed Christians, when they don't understand the command,

automatically disqualify God as having the wisdom to do what is right and just, making their own sense of righteousness first before God. That in affect sets themselves up as gods.

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Genesis 3:4-6 KJV

Regards!

[oldsailor29]

The Lord is sovereign.

All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Thus saith the Lord ... "there is no God beside me" ... "I am the Lord, and there is none else" ... "I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

[APL]

To no one in particular.

So far I haven't seen any mention of another aspect of God's character, i.e. He is also just, and He is also Judge. Love must also be just.

Joh 12:47 If people hear my message and do not obey it, I will not judge them. I came, not to judge the world, but to save it.

Joh 12:48 Those who reject me and do not accept my message have one who will judge them. The words I have spoken will be their judge on the last day!

Who is on trial?

Rom 3:4 By no means! God must prove true, though every man be false; as the Scripture says, "That you may be shown to be upright in what you say, And win your case when you go into court."

OT style justice

Psa 82:3 Judge the poor and fatherless: Do justice to the afflicted and destitute.

Isa 1:16 Wash yourselves clean. Stop all this evil that I see you doing. Yes, stop doing evil

Isa 1:17 and learn to do right. See that justice is done---help those who are oppressed, give orphans their rights, and defend widows."

Jer 21:12 This is what the LORD says to the dynasty of David: "'Give justice each morning to the people you judge! Help those who have been robbed; rescue them from their oppressors. ..."

Isa 30:18 The LORD is waiting to be kind to you. He rises to have compassion on you. The LORD is a God of justice. Blessed are all those who wait for him.

Justice is doing the right thing, making things right. Justice in a Biblical sense is not punitive. God is not punitive.

God is Love. period - full stop.

[LifeHiscost]

Justice is doing the right thing, making things right. Justice in a Biblical sense is not punitive. God is not punitive.

God is Love. period - full stop.

"Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."

Exodus 32:34 NIV

"'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Lev 26:18 NASB

"...and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Matthew 24:49-51 NASB

" But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:47-49 NIV

"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.""Luke 20:47 NIV

Regards!

[Lutz13]

Quote:

Not so difficult to understand when a person is willing to do what God asks,

There lies the problem. How could they know it was God asking? There is more to the cross than the forgiveness of sin! They thought they were worshiping God, but they weren't. Jesus set them straight. "You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."(John 8:44)

There was a SDA woman who was part of a study group. This woman started to see visions and an angel spoke with her. He gained her trust and told her all sorts of truths. What happened to her? She ended up killing people because the angel told her it was Gods will. There is another falling into this satanic trap. If you are aware of Ernie Knoll.

[Lutz13]

Originally Posted By: APL

Justice is doing the right thing, making things right. Justice in a Biblical sense is not punitive. God is not punitive.

God is Love. period - full stop.

"Now go, lead the people to the place I spoke of, and my angel will go before you. However, when the time comes for me to punish, I will punish them for their sin."

Exodus 32:34 NIV

"'If also after these things you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins." Lev 26:18 NASB

"...and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards;

the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know,

and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."Matthew 24:49-51 NASB

" But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." Luke 12:47-49 NIV

"They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely.""Luke 20:47 NIV

Regards!

God doesn't punish the way we punish. You are once again falling into the error of bringing "the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man"(Romans 1:23)

If God were to say follow me or I will kill you, that is not free will. If God says follow me or else you will hurt yourself, that is free will. That is also how God punishes us. In reality we punish ourselves, but since God allows it and doesn't prevent it, He takes blame.